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Author Topic: Professor by day, griefer by night  (Read 84827 times)
Rendakor
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Reply #35 on: July 08, 2009, 01:04:03 AM

Amarr, I think he created a Superbadass Hero and played it like a total dickhead. Wrong faction, and all that.

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Margalis
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Reply #36 on: July 08, 2009, 01:07:19 AM

Quote
"But the abuse was so widespread they couldn't completely stop it," Myers said. The company, he noted, had no right to police out-of-game forums.

The whole piece smacks of hypocrisy. Being an asshole in the game is within the rules, but being an asshole on message boards is also within the rules. So why is he complaining?

His philosophy of "if it's in the game it's in the game" seems to be applied in highly-selective fashion.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Amarr HM
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Reply #37 on: July 08, 2009, 01:16:50 AM

Amarr, I think he created a Superbadass Hero and played it like a total dickhead. Wrong faction, and all that.

Hey nearly all superheroes have turned bad at some stage so that's just a minor quibble  awesome, for real

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Triforcer
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Reply #38 on: July 08, 2009, 01:19:34 AM

I've always wished more games incorporated teleportation as an offensive power.  WoW world PvP would be much more exciting if you could mark a spot in a cave full of elites, and then teleport an opponent there when you are both on another continent  why so serious?

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Reply #39 on: July 08, 2009, 01:33:16 AM

TP Foe has always been a problem power. It used to make PvE incredibly simple: teleport single foe, team beatdown, repeat. Then the devs added aggro to its use.

Then it make PvP incredibly simple: lay trip mine trap, teleport target on top, mop up if needed, repeat. Certain powers were put in place to try to stop this.

Also: the griefing thing.

rk47
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Reply #40 on: July 08, 2009, 04:06:24 AM

He should play a marauder or white lions then. Perfect class for griefers.

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01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #41 on: July 08, 2009, 04:17:14 AM

Just another "academic" fucking things up on a quest for knowledge and an overarching theory on gaming to unlock its secret deeper meaning. Nothing like academia coming into the party and fucking things up, much like they do at any kegger or club party event. Instead of just enjoying the event for what it is, there is always some agenda being played out that these super sleuths just have to figure out.

bah...  swamp poop

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LC
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Reply #42 on: July 08, 2009, 04:26:50 AM

PvP happened, within the developers defined rules. and people hated him for it.

And anyone who has experienced any sort of MMO anywhere knows that once it's released, the community makes up its own rules and mores and gets mighty pissed off when you break those unwritten rules. Just because he wasn't banned for it doesn't mean he should have expected people to cheer him on.

Or, obvious research is obvious.

Those are the first rules I break.
jakonovski
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Reply #43 on: July 08, 2009, 05:23:03 AM

Quote
At first, players tried to beat him in the game to make him quit. Myers was too skilled to be run off, however.

Oh dear. A self-aggrandizing troll and griefer. I would take his "paper" with a whole shaker of salt. In fact, I would bet dollars to dimes that if you went to CoX forums, you'd get an entirely different picture on what actually happened.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:24:55 AM by jakonovski »
Nevermore
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Reply #44 on: July 08, 2009, 07:15:28 AM

Quote
At first, players tried to beat him in the game to make him quit. Myers was too skilled to be run off, however.

Oh dear. A self-aggrandizing troll and griefer. I would take his "paper" with a whole shaker of salt. In fact, I would bet dollars to dimes that if you went to CoX forums, you'd get an entirely different picture on what actually happened.

You mean like here?  If you go far enough you'll even find a Dev post.

Over and out.
jakonovski
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Reply #45 on: July 08, 2009, 07:24:21 AM

Soon I will be swimming in dimes!
Montague
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Reply #46 on: July 08, 2009, 10:04:47 AM

If you read the actual paper it's not that he's shocked by his opponent's reaction. He's shocked at the ferocity of the response by his own side. The point of the paper is that the unwritten rules of PVP etiquette trumped the game's artificial rules of hero vs. villain.

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Nevermore
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Reply #47 on: July 08, 2009, 10:21:41 AM

If you read the actual paper it's not that he's shocked by his opponent's reaction. He's shocked at the ferocity of the response by his own side. The point of the paper is that the unwritten rules of PVP etiquette trumped the game's artificial rules of hero vs. villain.

What he failed to mention in the paper is one of the biggest reasons he got such a negative reaction from his own side is he'd frequently interrupt otherwise great fights between heroes and villains by teleporting the villains away.  He was engaging in a particularly annoying form of killstealing.  While that doesn't warrant real life death threats, those types of things are hardly unusual on the internet.  There's a reason for the 'internet tough guy' meme.

Over and out.
kildorn
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Reply #48 on: July 08, 2009, 10:25:43 AM

You'd get a shitty response from teammates if you proceeded to play in an unsportsmanlike manner in any other type of game as well, though.

He keeps trying to make CoX into a war simulation, where the goal is to win at any cost and act like you're at war. What he's failing to grasp is that it's played as a game, because it's a game. Or more likely, he's just being a douche, and trying to justify his desire to be a douche.
01101010
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Reply #49 on: July 08, 2009, 10:25:47 AM

If you read the actual paper it's not that he's shocked by his opponent's reaction. He's shocked at the ferocity of the response by his own side. The point of the paper is that the unwritten rules of PVP etiquette trumped the game's artificial rules of hero vs. villain.

I think the generalized culture, as viewed from an academic standpoint, has yet to validate video gaming as anything more than a distraction hobby. When I was doing my graduate work in Sociology/Criminology, I attempted to draw out norms and sanctions in online gaming but was advised to avoid that route due to no one in the field taking it seriously enough to validate my work as nothing more than replication as was done in other areas such as sports. As I tried to discuss and explain my position further, I was finding less and less support in my dept and in the field in general. Basically, I was told it was not a valid field and I should study other areas that mattered or my research and career would stagnate. So much for grad school and the freedom of research...tow the line or fail out. and with that, I walked away.

Christ, I forgot my point... point is, there is very little done in the way of research on the topic and the fact that this guy started the dialog is amiable at best, but his own viewpoint at the onset influenced his paper. More to the point, his assumptions were off base which retarded the entire endeavor.  

edit for spelling and memory lapse.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 10:30:08 AM by 01101010 »

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Lantyssa
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Reply #50 on: July 08, 2009, 10:37:18 AM

I'd say he simply used the "research" as a way to enjoy his anti-social tendancies.  We've been on the internet long enough and we've seen what happens when someone is unable to display any empathy towards others because they only view them as virtual beings.  "It's research!" is the perfect excuse to justify the behavior.

Were he doing a psychological experient I can't imagine it making it past the review board, and if it did, not after preliminary results.  He became the experiment, he wasn't acting as an impartial observer.  Shoddy from a research perspective.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Amarr HM
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Reply #51 on: July 08, 2009, 11:26:12 AM

I don't know, if he wasn't actually doing research he could have just remained anonymous right? I mean what's the point in coming forward and risking further reprisals? Also I think the real douchebag in this story is the guy who delivered the RL threat. Oh and also the company for not fixing what seems like a pretty obvious exploit.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 11:27:57 AM by Amarr HM »

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Xanthippe
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Reply #52 on: July 08, 2009, 11:57:30 AM

I don't buy any of it.  Not his faux surprise over the reaction of the community to his griefing, not his self-aggrandizing infamy on the server, nor his fear of being in danger due to reaction to his conduct. 

The only thing I do believe is his inability to distinguish between something being legal and something being acceptable, because he sounds like a complete social retard.
Amarr HM
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Reply #53 on: July 08, 2009, 12:38:18 PM

I don't think everyone plays MMO's to make friends? I mean does everyone believe that the social aspect of MMO's should be stronger than the game itself? yeh I know multiplayer hrrm.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 12:42:25 PM by Amarr HM »

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #54 on: July 08, 2009, 12:48:17 PM

Quote
As part of his experiment, Myers decided to play the game by the designers' rules -- disregarding any customs set by the players.

Quote
Myers was stunned by the reaction, since he obeyed the game's rules.

Ignoring social conventions can make you unpopular, an academic has discovered. Who would have guessed?
Lantyssa
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Reply #55 on: July 08, 2009, 01:22:20 PM

Supposedly a Sociologist at that.

I don't know, if he wasn't actually doing research he could have just remained anonymous right? I mean what's the point in coming forward and risking further reprisals? Also I think the real douchebag in this story is the guy who delivered the RL threat. Oh and also the company for not fixing what seems like a pretty obvious exploit.
Publicity for his forthcoming book coupled with the fact given his field of study he knows nothing is going to come of the threats?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
amiable
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Reply #56 on: July 08, 2009, 01:38:13 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.  While clearly not against the rules he got up and became physically violent!!!!  It just goes to show you how strangely attached these folks are to their precious "unpoken rules" are when just playing a game.  Fortunately I am skilled enough that I was able to run away and hide and later able to continue the same behavior with other players.  But I must say I am now concerned for my physical safety, who knows what these deranged miscreants may do?  They need to understand boundaries.
Amarr HM
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Reply #57 on: July 08, 2009, 01:39:49 PM

Publicity for his forthcoming book coupled with the fact given his field of study he knows nothing is going to come of the threats?

Ah ok point taken, it's also good publicity for CoH so the company have a bit of answering to do in that respect. But if he's writing a book on the subject doesn't that further clarify that this was indeed a case study?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 02:14:47 PM by Amarr HM »

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Amarr HM
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Reply #58 on: July 08, 2009, 01:44:33 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.

Yeh cause playing a computer game is exactly like this, very akin to pushing old ladies off buses and spitting in peoples faces, in fact I would go as far as to say when you kill ten people in an FPS shooter it makes you a borderline homicidal maniac and the police force should watch your steps very closely.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 01:47:59 PM by Amarr HM »

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Nevermore
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Reply #59 on: July 08, 2009, 02:31:57 PM

in fact I would go as far as to say when you kill ten people in an FPS shooter it makes you a borderline homicidal maniac and the police force should watch your steps very closely.

Thanks for your input, Jack Thompson.  why so serious?

Over and out.
Amarr HM
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Reply #60 on: July 08, 2009, 02:42:20 PM

Thanks for your input, Jack Thompson.  why so serious?

Indeed I had him in mind when I wrote that, but seriously you can't apply real life analogies to stuff that goes on in a video game without sounding like you are going down that route somewhat. The minute you start seeing those crossovers that is probably time to put the joystick down imo. Or you might end up being the real idiot who is dishing out RL threats.


I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Kovacs
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Reply #61 on: July 08, 2009, 03:27:12 PM

Huh.  Interesitng.  Isn't that exactly what the author of this paper is trying to do?

And as for this...
Just another "academic" fucking things up on a quest for knowledge and an overarching theory on gaming to unlock its secret deeper meaning. Nothing like academia coming into the party and fucking things up, much like they do at any kegger or club party event. Instead of just enjoying the event for what it is, there is always some agenda being played out that these super sleuths just have to figure out.

bah...  swamp poop

Just no.  The paper is neither academic or journalistic, although I suppose it aspires to both.  The conclusions are obvious, logical and trivial and the 'story' consists entirely of a lopsided retelling of anecdotes by an obvious retard.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 03:30:04 PM by Kovacs »
01101010
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Reply #62 on: July 08, 2009, 03:32:32 PM

Huh.  Interesitng.  Isn't that exactly what the author of this paper is trying to do?

And as for this...
Just another "academic" fucking things up on a quest for knowledge and an overarching theory on gaming to unlock its secret deeper meaning. Nothing like academia coming into the party and fucking things up, much like they do at any kegger or club party event. Instead of just enjoying the event for what it is, there is always some agenda being played out that these super sleuths just have to figure out.

bah...  swamp poop

Just no.  The paper is neither academic or journalistic, although I suppose it aspires to both.  The conclusions are obvious, logical and trivial and the facts behind the story consist of a lopsided retelling of anecdotes by an obvious retard.

Oh I agree... don't take that the wrong way. But its only a matter of time before a cyber Tea Room Trade type qualitative study comes out. I think this is the first shot fired by someone with some time under his belt. I know a few grad students I talked with at national meetings who were interested in studying online communities linked with games but none could find the backing from advisors or tenured faculty. 

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Redgiant
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Reply #63 on: July 08, 2009, 04:10:22 PM

Actually, in Fansy's case, they changed the rules of the 'no rules' pvp server in direct response to him.  And I think Fansy was thought of well by those on his side, because his side was vastly outnumbered and they essentially couldn't even go to the Deserts of Ro or Oasis.

Ah, the good old days of Everquest exploit nostalgia.

I wish I could find the old video of the guy who would train all the spectres to the beach area in Oasis where they would just rape everyone around, and was immune to other player damage because he was level 5 and couldn't be touched by higher levels.

A FUCKING COMPANY IS AT STEAK
tmp
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Reply #64 on: July 08, 2009, 04:52:59 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.  While clearly not against the rules he got up and became physically violent!!!!  It just goes to show you how strangely attached these folks are to their precious "unpoken rules" are when just playing a game.
Spitting into someone's face is universal gesture of contempt, completely unrelated and not attached to chess or any other activity you could be partaking at the time. You could spit into the guy's face out of the blue and in middle of street and odds are, you'd get the same reaction. Bending mechanics of computer game on the other hand ... that can only happen when playing said computer game and as part of that game.

Apples and oranges, in other words.
kildorn
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Reply #65 on: July 08, 2009, 05:19:34 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.  While clearly not against the rules he got up and became physically violent!!!!  It just goes to show you how strangely attached these folks are to their precious "unpoken rules" are when just playing a game.
Spitting into someone's face is universal gesture of contempt, completely unrelated and not attached to chess or any other activity you could be partaking at the time. You could spit into the guy's face out of the blue and in middle of street and odds are, you'd get the same reaction. Bending mechanics of computer game on the other hand ... that can only happen when playing said computer game and as part of that game.

Apples and oranges, in other words.

It's actually relatively simplistic to comment on following within the rules of a physical game and an electronic game yet still skirting the "spirit" of the rules, or what people generally consider to be proper behavior. This seems to eventually result in changes to the rules, just like it does in an electronic game. But essentially his conduct can be linked directly to what we'd call "unsportsmanlike", and just like in physical games, people get pissy about that. Heck, should we go find evidence of people threatening/performing violence over hated sports figures?

Spitting? Yeah, that's immediately stepping into contempt levels. Though off the top of my head, I can't think what law it directly violates. But let's go with easy examples. Go to a bar. Wait for someone in a group of people to get up and go to the bathroom. Take their seat. You've done absolutely nothing illegal, but I'm pretty sure people will be actively unhappy with your actions. Heck, start flirting with his girlfriend. Still legal, but see where this winds up.

There are plenty of "within the law" things you can do that will result in people actively disliking/threatening/being downright pissed at you. This isn't a video game thing, it's a social construct thing. Video games will likely just get to the stupid threats level quickly due to the anonymous nature of it. But a bar where you're not buff and the other group outnumbers you will likely wind up at physical threats pretty fucking quick, too. At that point it's the safety of numbers, instead of the safety of being anonymous.
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Reply #66 on: July 08, 2009, 05:51:20 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.

I don't know why, but reading that made a laugh bubble up and escape unexpectedly. I think it was the mental image I got from it. Well done!  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

God Save the Horn Players
tmp
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Reply #67 on: July 08, 2009, 05:57:28 PM

This isn't a video game thing, it's a social construct thing.
That's what it seems to boil down to, and if in the end his paper goes to note that (also) in simulated environment people are more attached to their informal social constructs than official rules, to the point of getting threatening and abusive when these unspoken rules are repeatedly broken... well, i don't quite see the issue with it -- for many it may be just "duh he's stating the obvious" but having even the obvious actually written down in form of social study can be useful reference for situations where just "everyone knows that" doesn't quite cut it as part of the argument.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:59:26 PM by tmp »
WindupAtheist
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Reply #68 on: July 08, 2009, 06:00:57 PM

You know, this guy is right.  Just the other day I was playing chess with a friend and right before he moved I spit directly into his face.

Yeh cause playing a computer game is exactly like this, very akin to pushing old ladies off buses and spitting in peoples faces, in fact I would go as far as to say when you kill ten people in an FPS shooter it makes you a borderline homicidal maniac and the police force should watch your steps very closely.

Hooray, I get to use this again!


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"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
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Reply #69 on: July 08, 2009, 07:40:40 PM

Just no.  The paper is neither academic or journalistic, although I suppose it aspires to both.  The conclusions are obvious, logical and trivial and the 'story' consists entirely of a lopsided retelling of anecdotes by an obvious retard.

In academia, nothing is obvious unless you can quote someone else saying it is.

Also, saying, "I expected this result and I proved my hypothesis" is also perfectly acceptable in a field as untapped as online gaming communities.

But yes, Myers does make himself look like a babe in the woods when he was reportedly very vocal about winding people up.

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