Star Wars Episodes 1, 2, & 3

[K9]

Star Wars Uncut

Someone has split A New Hope into 472 15 second long clips. You pick a clip, re-film it, and they will stitch all the clips back together to re-make the film.

[Trippy]

Moved all of the most recent LotR stuff to here:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17513.0

[WayAbvPar]

If there was ever any doubt that George Lucas hates every fucking one of you little bastards, I give you Dancing with the Star Wars 2008.

I cannot look away.

Why the fuck did I click? Why??? Even worse, I had to watch the whole thing. That may be the ultimate grief link.


How the FUCK did you stumble onto that?

[HaemishM]

Someone at work sent that to me in email. What's worse is that apparently, it's a yearly thing.

[WindupAtheist]

From the STO thread...

It's something probably more attributable to EU authors and a bit of retconning, but the Jedi causing their own downfall pretty much is the official canon.  If you piece the whole thing together, which is something only a massive dork like me can probably do, the Jedi fear of attachment and their general arrogance is what led to their demise.

Am I really the only one who remembers Obi-Wan going "Gee Anakin sure is arrogant lately!" followed by Yoda explicitly blurting out that it's a problem among lots of older Jedi as well? Or the Emperor going "Your arrogance has blinded you!" shortly after seizing power and immediately before blasting Yoda into a wall?

It's not only intentional, it's not even the least bit subtle. That's even if you leave out things like Windu's smug "Dooku can't possibly be a badguy, he used to be a Jedi!" speech. Or Anakin, on the brink of turning to the dark side, going to Yoda for advice and getting some rote "Just don't be attached!" dogma thrown in his direction while he sits there with a visible "WELL THIS ISN'T HELPING!" look on his face.

A big part of the whole thrust of the third movie was that the Jedi were aloof and unrelatable. Anakin could talk to Palpatine about his marriage, but the Jedi would throw him out if they even knew about it. When Anakin obliquely asks for advice on the impending death of his wife, the Jedi line amounts to saying fuck it and letting her die. Palpatine, on the other hand, is sympathetic and offers a concrete course of action.

Of course Palpatine's advice was all evil and manipulative, but that's the point. The Jedi were so far stuck up their own ass that they weren't even on the scoreboard.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Lucas tries but all of his attempts at nuance seem to be half-assed or poorly implemented. I don't doubt that he was trying to convey that the jedi were guilty of their own arrogance but alternates between ham-fisted and boring while doing so.

[Khaldun]

I think it's a theme that emerges a bit by accident out of the ashes of Lucas' own ham-fisted storytelling, and only becomes a really clear (and interesting) take on the Jedi through the hard work of geek interpretation. Lucas kind of wants to tell a fall-of-Rome story and he kind of wants to tell a story about the Jedi as heroes with a tragic collective flaw. If he'd really worked towards that, the films could have been pretty durn good (and still had rollicking good action), because they could have had the same basic hook that most tragedies do: the hope that somehow the protagonist will see before it's too late what a mistake he's making, the recognition that the villain couldn't succeed were it not for the flaw in the hero, and the sick, melancholy knowledge that the hero is going to fall.

But if that's the story you want to tell, then Anakin can't be the protagonist unless he's written and played completely differently. Imagine if the story had gone something like this:

Act I: Qui-Gon Jinn, dissenting Jedi who is on the verge of getting booted from the Order because he's had it with the passivity and arrogance of his colleagues defies an instruction from the Council and goes to help with a situation on Naboo. He thinks he sees the involvement of the Sith, his colleagues say "Wolf-crying by a dude who we don't trust". Worse, he meets a teenager who is really strong in the Force and gets him involved in the situation on Naboo, partly because he needs the extra help. (Obi-Wan ends up feeling a little jealous/competitive of the new protege.) Qui-Gon gets killed by a Sith, Obi-Wan takes care of that with Anakin's help, Council feels guilty because they didn't believe, agrees out of guilt to let Anakin be Obi-Wan's padawan.

Act II: Clone Wars start at the beginning (still due to Palpatine's Wag the Dog plan), Obi-Wan and Anakin get involved in lots of battles, Anakin saves the Republic's ass by acting more and more forcefully and with more and more skill, Obi-Wan starts letting Anakin take the lead because his way works, but there's that tension as well as friendship in their relationship--they're almost peers, kind of rivals. Council just keeps sniping and bitching and talking about detachment. Anakin falls in love and has to hide that, too. Starts to really hate the Jedi while he really loves the Force.

Act III: Palpatine moves in on Anakin, seeing he's ready to reject the Jedi because they deserve to be rejected. Jedi are overthrown, Republic goes plotz, Anakin makes an even bigger mess because he's not come up with a more balanced way to wield the Force, just substituting aggression and anger and runaway passion for detachment and head-up-the-assery. Everything proceeds as previously foreseen.

[Cyrrex]

From the STO thread...

It's something probably more attributable to EU authors and a bit of retconning, but the Jedi causing their own downfall pretty much is the official canon.  If you piece the whole thing together, which is something only a massive dork like me can probably do, the Jedi fear of attachment and their general arrogance is what led to their demise.

Am I really the only one who remembers Obi-Wan going "Gee Anakin sure is arrogant lately!" followed by Yoda explicitly blurting out that it's a problem among lots of older Jedi as well? Or the Emperor going "Your arrogance has blinded you!" shortly after seizing power and immediately before blasting Yoda into a wall?

It's not only intentional, it's not even the least bit subtle. That's even if you leave out things like Windu's smug "Dooku can't possibly be a badguy, he used to be a Jedi!" speech. Or Anakin, on the brink of turning to the dark side, going to Yoda for advice and getting some rote "Just don't be attached!" dogma thrown in his direction while he sits there with a visible "WELL THIS ISN'T HELPING!" look on his face.

A big part of the whole thrust of the third movie was that the Jedi were aloof and unrelatable. Anakin could talk to Palpatine about his marriage, but the Jedi would throw him out if they even knew about it. When Anakin obliquely asks for advice on the impending death of his wife, the Jedi line amounts to saying fuck it and letting her die. Palpatine, on the other hand, is sympathetic and offers a concrete course of action.

Of course Palpatine's advice was all evil and manipulative, but that's the point. The Jedi were so far stuck up their own ass that they weren't even on the scoreboard.

Yep.  Pretty clear to you and me, but we are among the biggest SW geeks around here.  Many of the posters here have stated that Anakin's fall doesn't even make sense, that he just turns from good to bad with little compelling reason.  Truth is, the reasons are compelling enough, but much of it is covered in the books (even in the ROTS book), and what little that is done in the movies are overshadowed by poor screenplay and acting.  It's hard to believe a story when you don't even believe the actors attempting to convey it.

Another little nugget:  Anakin's whiny tirade about not being allowed to be a Master is more than just him being a big fat crybaby.  Though part of his reaction is indeed a result of his own simple arrogance, it is actually largely because he wanted access to certain parts of the Jedi archive that only Masters are allowed access to.  Because he wasn't able to ask for real advice from the Jedi, he hoped he could get something to save Padme through some of the more...forbidden knowledge buried in the archives.  So he understandably freaked when told he wasn't going to be given access.

[WindupAtheist]

I really don't want to have the traditional "Here's what Lucas should have done, let me get my notes!" Star Wars geek debate we've surely all been a party to in the past, but saying that theme is an accident or played too low-key doesn't wash with me. Lucas is not particularly subtle, and pretty much slapped the audience in the face with that one.

Anakin: My wif-- er-- someone might die, and I need to know what to do!
Yoda: Eh, just don't give a shit, then you got nothing to worry about. Bla bla attachment.
Anakin: I think you're pretty useless. Just look at my scowl and the SHADOW over my face. Dun dun dun.

Followed by...

Palpatine: Hey, I know you're worried that your wife is gonna die!
Anakin: Er.. wha... well yeah!
Palpatine: Well we can't just let that shit happen! Here's my plan! Bla bla evil evil fuck the Jedi.
Anakin: But you're a Sith. Gosh I am so conflicted. Wonder which way I will go. Dun dun dun.

Whatever else you might say about it, it doesn't require Sherlock Holmes to decipher. Part of the problem is that Lucas is SO lacking subtlety that if he merely slaps the audience in the face with something, instead of writing it on the head of a hammer and beating it into their skulls, they assume it wasn't important or he didn't mean it.

[Malakili]

[

Another little nugget:  Anakin's whiny tirade about not being allowed to be a Master is more than just him being a big fat crybaby.  Though part of his reaction is indeed a result of his own simple arrogance, it is actually largely because he wanted access to certain parts of the Jedi archive that only Masters are allowed access to.  Because he wasn't able to ask for real advice from the Jedi, he hoped he could get something to save Padme through some of the more...forbidden knowledge buried in the archives.  So he understandably freaked when told he wasn't going to be given access.

Interesting.  I didn't read any of the novel stuff, so this makes it seem a little more sense.  In the film it just comes off as emo Anakin being emo Anakin.

[Cyrrex]

I essentially agree.  Ultimately, other people in his own universe made it far more believable than he did, even if it was ultimately the same message.  Let's just leave it at that.

[

Another little nugget:  Anakin's whiny tirade about not being allowed to be a Master is more than just him being a big fat crybaby.  Though part of his reaction is indeed a result of his own simple arrogance, it is actually largely because he wanted access to certain parts of the Jedi archive that only Masters are allowed access to.  Because he wasn't able to ask for real advice from the Jedi, he hoped he could get something to save Padme through some of the more...forbidden knowledge buried in the archives.  So he understandably freaked when told he wasn't going to be given access.

Interesting.  I didn't read any of the novel stuff, so this makes it seem a little more sense.  In the film it just comes off as emo Anakin being emo Anakin.

See above.  The books, and not just the ROTS book, do a better job of making the "fall" believable and even tragic.  Of course, it's inherently and easier medium to do that with. 

[Tannhauser]

The thing I love, and reflects on the Jedi's arrogance, is that Anakin is to bring "balance to the Force."  The Jedi assume that's good for them, but guess what assholes; there are hundreds if not thousands of Jedi and TWO Sith.  Now you tell me how Anakin's gonna 'balance' things.

Hint:  It involves massive bloodshed.

[lamaros]

From the STO thread...

It's something probably more attributable to EU authors and a bit of retconning, but the Jedi causing their own downfall pretty much is the official canon.  If you piece the whole thing together, which is something only a massive dork like me can probably do, the Jedi fear of attachment and their general arrogance is what led to their demise.

Am I really the only one who remembers Obi-Wan going "Gee Anakin sure is arrogant lately!" followed by Yoda explicitly blurting out that it's a problem among lots of older Jedi as well? Or the Emperor going "Your arrogance has blinded you!" shortly after seizing power and immediately before blasting Yoda into a wall?

It's not only intentional, it's not even the least bit subtle. That's even if you leave out things like Windu's smug "Dooku can't possibly be a badguy, he used to be a Jedi!" speech. Or Anakin, on the brink of turning to the dark side, going to Yoda for advice and getting some rote "Just don't be attached!" dogma thrown in his direction while he sits there with a visible "WELL THIS ISN'T HELPING!" look on his face.

A big part of the whole thrust of the third movie was that the Jedi were aloof and unrelatable. Anakin could talk to Palpatine about his marriage, but the Jedi would throw him out if they even knew about it. When Anakin obliquely asks for advice on the impending death of his wife, the Jedi line amounts to saying fuck it and letting her die. Palpatine, on the other hand, is sympathetic and offers a concrete course of action.

Of course Palpatine's advice was all evil and manipulative, but that's the point. The Jedi were so far stuck up their own ass that they weren't even on the scoreboard.

Yep.  Pretty clear to you and me, but we are among the biggest SW geeks around here.

Pretty clear here too. And I'm probably the furthest thing from a SW geek on this board.

But poorly written and acted nonetheless. Seeing what they were going for and believing they did job of communicating it are two different things.

[Khaldun]

Right. That's my thing. I get it. It was just done poorly.

[eldaec]

Lucas put all the character development in the time between the films.

Even in RotS, Anakin barely changes from the start to the finish.

The reason people don't spot the arrogance thing is because it barely affects either the characters or the storyline. Everyone just says 'hmm yes arrogance' from time to time and it just gets lost in the rest of the dross.


Thing you notice in Khaldun's version of SW1-3 is that real shit happens to the characters. In the actual films they just sit on a theme-park ride commenting on why events are happening around them, and on all the interesting stuff that happened in the years not shown on film.

[NowhereMan]

Yes, the acting in all three films was fucking terrible and not helped by Lucas' insistence that Anakin be 6 years old when they first find him. Children can do nuanced acting and Lucas has no hope in hell of directing any child to produce anything that conveys exactly what a director should want it to.

[Sir T]

You are making a very big assumption that the wooden acting was not exactly what Lucas wanted. That he directed it that way for reasons best known to the gods of overhyped idiocy

[stray]

It's nice to have sophistication on the levels you guys want, and I understand that things are done poorly or superficially here, but bottom line is that they are movies for stupid people. Or people who want to be stupid. Oh, and kids.

It's easy to drive points home this way. Like slogans in a way (also meant for stupid people). Most action movies do it actually, even though Lucas is a bit more transparent.

edit: OK, my post is probably vague.. I'm just skimming around here. I just mean that these movies aren't supposed to be all that nuanced. Just like the original trilogy, it's still an ode to schlock. Lucas has a schlock mentality. He never was sophisticated, nor was the general idea of Star Wars. The problem with the second trilogy is that it simply isn't as fun and enjoyable as the first. Not that it's less sophisticated. But I do think it's entertaining at times.. Enough that have gotten through them.

[HaemishM]

I counter your lack of sophistication argument with Empire Strikes Back. That movie is an example of almost cinematic perfection. What's different? It wasn't directed by Lucas, the dialogue was written by a real screenwriter and Star Wars, while successful, wasn't so mind-blowingly successful that Lucas had carte blance to ignore everyone else to do what he wanted to do.

[WindupAtheist]

I counter your lack of sophistication argument with Empire Strikes Back. That movie is an example of almost cinematic perfection.

Also, and I offer this simply as a point of trivia, the most critically reviled of all six movies when you leave aside the "twenty years later I decided that popular thing was good" reviews and stick to what was in the papers when each one came out. Go figure.

[Khaldun]

Empire was the most critically reviled at the time?

Um, no. It was received quite positively on the whole. I realize we'll have to actually do real research to adjudicate that, but I remember positive reviews in Time, Newsweek, the LA Times, Chicago Sun-Times, and NY Times. Maslin normally hated this kind of movie but she qiute liked Empire.

[tgr]

It's nice to have sophistication on the levels you guys want, and I understand that things are done poorly or superficially here, but bottom line is that they are movies for stupid people. Or people who want to be stupid. Oh, and kids.

When I saw the 2 first movies, the one thing that struck me was just how mindnumbingly insulting they were to me as a viewer, and that came (for me) completely from the fact jar-jar was such a complete fuckwad who should've just been taken out back and shot, not given multiple lines. And least of all be involved in a battle  in any way, shape or form (hi big blue balls that somehow hit just what needed to be hit etc). And I really thought it would've been insulting even if I had been just a kid.

The whole visit-to-clones-of-bobba-fett deal didn't help much, of course.

Having said that, there's been a remake where someone tried their best to remove jar-jar from the movie, and also try to imply things in a more subtle way. I thought that changed the movies from incredibly fucking bad (well, to be fair, the third wasn't /too/ bad) to not too bad, although I must admit I would've liked to see a few of the suggestions from earlier in the thread on how the pre-trilogy could've been done.

[WindupAtheist]

Actually I was wrong, the most critically reviled was ROTJ by a longshot. But ESB still took it from critics worse than Phantom Menace did. Link.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Actually I was wrong, the most critically reviled was ROTJ by a longshot. But ESB still took it from critics worse than Phantom Menace did. Link.

I would argue that a lot of people went in to phantom menace with all their nostalgia attached, especially movie critics.

[IainC]

I would argue that a lot of people went in to phantom menace with all their nostalgia advertising budget attached, especially movie critics.

[Broughden]

The thing I love, and reflects on the Jedi's arrogance, is that Anakin is to bring "balance to the Force."  The Jedi assume that's good for them, but guess what assholes; there are hundreds if not thousands of Jedi and TWO Sith.  Now you tell me how Anakin's gonna 'balance' things.

Hint:  It involves massive bloodshed.

Never could figure out how they missed this one as well.

[Merusk]

Well clearly he'd rebalance it all by just showing them the right path, instead of the one that was making them all arrogant douches.  Evening things out along the way, not necessarily wiping out the ones causing the imbalance.

[stray]

I always interpreted as just that.. bringing power to the Sith. I thought it was meant to be a sort of joke on the Jedi.

If I were to take it further, I'd say that Luke was the eventual byproduct of all of it. Seemed like an all around more flawed, human type of Jedi (compared to Jin or Mace, etc). His pals too (Han) were kind of antiheros. Not righteous and detached. Then again, that's probably reading too much into it.

[Kail]

The thing I love, and reflects on the Jedi's arrogance, is that Anakin is to bring "balance to the Force."  The Jedi assume that's good for them, but guess what assholes; there are hundreds if not thousands of Jedi and TWO Sith.

Never could figure out how they missed this one as well.

It's never really made clear what "bringing balance to the force" means.  It doesn't automatically mean "Team Sith must have equal numbers to Team Jedi."  They could be operating under the assumption that "balance" is something a Jedi works towards, and something a Sith (or whatever evil they feel is threatening the galaxy since they think the Sith are extinct) works against, so the way to "balance" the force would be to kill all the Sith.

[stray]

I don't think the Sith are evil.. Err, or maybe they don't start off that way. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", etc.. Seems to be what Anakin's deal was, or that Sith Lord that Sidius was talking about, who wanted to prevent death. Sidius himself was ultimately just concerned with order. If anything, what defines the Sith is the need to control everything. To have power over the universe. Later on, Vader doesn't exactly come off evil either.. but a bit of a foreboding, self righteous prick in a way..Not exactly "evil". He thinks he has the moral highground in his dealings. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." And he does have the moral highground probably. The Death Star generals seemed worse and more emptyheaded. Obi-Wan would also find their lack of faith disturbing. The difference between him and Vader is that Vader will choke a bitch. Luke otoh was balanced... and the prophecy was probably fulfilled about Anakin. Just in his offspring.

[edited] some shit

[Ratman_tf]

A big part of the whole thrust of the third movie was that the Jedi were aloof and unrelatable. Anakin could talk to Palpatine about his marriage, but the Jedi would throw him out if they even knew about it. When Anakin obliquely asks for advice on the impending death of his wife, the Jedi line amounts to saying fuck it and letting her die. Palpatine, on the other hand, is sympathetic and offers a concrete course of action.

I believe that Anakin believed that if the Jedi found out, he'd be toast, but we're never told this, and even Padme told Anakin that Obi-Wan wanted to help him. He probably would have been given a harsh choice, to divorce Padme and not assoicate with her, or give up the Jedi, but we'll never know what Yoda's advice would have been, because Anakin continually lied about his relationship.

Maybe the Jedi had sticks up their asses, but Anakin was a mistrustful dick who wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

[Ratman_tf]

It's never really made clear what "bringing balance to the force" means.  It doesn't automatically mean "Team Sith must have equal numbers to Team Jedi."  They could be operating under the assumption that "balance" is something a Jedi works towards, and something a Sith (or whatever evil they feel is threatening the galaxy since they think the Sith are extinct) works against, so the way to "balance" the force would be to kill all the Sith.

No, but Lucas has said that the imbalance is the Sith, who take from the Force without giving anything in return.
 
http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12176359/?154

[stray]

It's never really made clear what "bringing balance to the force" means.  It doesn't automatically mean "Team Sith must have equal numbers to Team Jedi."  They could be operating under the assumption that "balance" is something a Jedi works towards, and something a Sith (or whatever evil they feel is threatening the galaxy since they think the Sith are extinct) works against, so the way to "balance" the force would be to kill all the Sith.

No, but Lucas has said that the imbalance is the Sith, who take from the Force without giving anything in return.
 
http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12176359/?154

Damn, all of my Taoist takes on it are completely dispensed.   Well, that's boring. I figured both the Jedi and Sith were part of the problem.

edit: The reason being is that in Luke's story, he kind of goes against both Vader's wish of "we'll control the universe together" as well as Yoda's urging to not concern himself with his father too. Luke seemed to have an inbetween path.. i.e. "balance".

Also, whether Lucas thinks the Jedi are already "balanced" with the absense of Sith, I don't really like them. I think Jedi suck. You can't even get laid as a Jedi. Anakin got shit for it. It was right that they got destroyed. They didn't really give a shit about being personally involved with humans.. but merely being monk-ish peacekeepers. Not good at all. I'd like to think that in the post-Luke Jedi world, you were allowed to care about your parents (unlike Anakin could) and that you could get laid (unlike Anakin could). 

[Ratman_tf]

It's never really made clear what "bringing balance to the force" means.  It doesn't automatically mean "Team Sith must have equal numbers to Team Jedi."  They could be operating under the assumption that "balance" is something a Jedi works towards, and something a Sith (or whatever evil they feel is threatening the galaxy since they think the Sith are extinct) works against, so the way to "balance" the force would be to kill all the Sith.

No, but Lucas has said that the imbalance is the Sith, who take from the Force without giving anything in return.
 
http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12176359/?154

Damn, all of my Taoist takes on it are completely dispensed.   Well, that's boring. I figured both the Jedi and Sith were part of the problem.

edit: The reason being is that in Luke's story, he kind of goes against both Vader's wish of "we'll control the universe together" as well as Yoda's urging to not concern himself with his father too. Luke seemed to have an inbetween path.. i.e. "balance".

Also, whether Lucas thinks the Jedi are already "balanced" with the absense of Sith, I don't really like them. I think Jedi suck. You can't even get laid as a Jedi. Anakin got shit for it. It was right that they got destroyed. They didn't really give a shit about being personally involved with humans.. but merely being monk-ish peacekeepers. Not good at all. I'd like to think that in the post-Luke Jedi world, you were allowed to care about your parents (unlike Anakin could) and that you could get laid (unlike Anakin could). 

Where do they say that Jedi can't get laid, or that they can't have friends? It's unhealthy attachment (where you can't let go) that they advise against. Anakin in the 3rd movie becomes the archtypical wife beater, only with magical force powers.
Look at Clieg Lars. He was sad that Shmi died, but he didn't swear some nutty blood oath on her grave because he could let her go. In the end, Anakin didn't care about other people beyond what they meant to him. He thought he possesed people like things. That's what led him to the Dark Side.

[Margalis]

What lead him to the darkside was "oh shit, we have 20 minutes left in the third movie and we still have no explanation for why he's turning to the darkside - cue montage!"