Star Wars Episodes 1, 2, & 3

[UnSub]

a one-time throwaway

Also see: youngling, padawan.

Maybe padawan was widely used in the EU, but I rolled my eyes the first 50 times I heard it. Youngling was worse - it made me laugh.

[Khaldun]

Midichlorians weren't just a dumb throwaway, though. They were an actively offensive assault on an important element of what made Star Wars an attractive if derivative setting. The Force as mystical 'life-essence' manipulated by seers, monks, wise men (Jedi)? Fun, has a lot of fantasy and fictional precedents that you can invoke! The Force as microscopic organisms that are implicitly heritable, genetic superpowers? Different fucking mythology, dude: you just switched channels to the X-Men crossed with medieval nobility. Not so much fun, or at least a really different kind of mythological foundation.

Bill Moyers deserves to be kicked in the nuts for sucking up to Lucas' belief that he'd created some kind of great Joseph Campbellian deep story. (Frankly, Joseph Campbell deserves to be kicked in the posthumous nuts for writing relatively simple-minded stuff on comparative mythology that invited a dumbass like Lucas to read it and think it was profound.) But with the midichlorians stuff, Lucas basically showed that he didn't even understand Joseph Campbell, which is roughly like struggling with the Cliff's Notes to Goodnight, Moon.

[lamaros]

Let it all out, there there.

[Ironwood]

Be fair.  Microscopic lifeforms in the blood.

That kind of thing really makes you mad.

[Triforcer]

I never got the impression that midichlorians caused Force sensitivity- I think its more a result of Force sensitivity.  In other words, within the Star Wars universe, you couldn't just drain Jedi blood and inject yourself with it.  If it was that easy to gain force powers, every non-Force-using villain in every EU book would be doing it.  Viewed in that way, I don't have a problem with midichlorians.   

[Ironwood]

Excellent.  I eagerly await the rationalisation story for when your wife is caught with two blokes in her bed, one in her ass.

Seriously, it's pretty much explicit that it's a bonded symbiote in the blood that causes 'The Force'.  I suspect that we can rationalise all day about that bonding process and how it can't be exploited, but the fact is WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

STOP ANSWERING QUESTIONS NO-ONE ASKED LUCAS, YOU BIG TUB OF LARD.

[ahoythematey]

Was it explicit?  I don't actually remember how Qui-Gon explained it, other than that Anakin's "count" was even higher than Yoda's.

Not that it really matters, as it's still a bad idea.

[Ratman_tf]

Was it explicit?  I don't actually remember how Qui-Gon explained it, other than that Anakin's "count" was even higher than Yoda's.

Not that it really matters, as it's still a bad idea.

Qui-Gonn goes on about how you need the midichlorines to be "in tune" with the Force, and kinda more interesting, that without them, there would be no life.

All something that could have been covered by Qui-Gonn saying "The Force is strong wtih this one" like every other character does.

Makes you wonder if Midiclhorians were an eccentricity of Qui-Gonn, and Obi-Wan just was humoring him. (That's a joke theory a friend of mine made up.)

[WindupAtheist]

Leaving aside the EU, all we really know is that everyone has midichlorians and that people with the Force have more of them. I don't really know WHAT the fuck to make of Qui-Gon's statement that without them "life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force" since... uh... if LIFE DID NOT EXIST nobody would have knowledge of anything. So I just shrug, and remember that the rest of the Jedi considered him to be basically a crank anyway.

I don't really have a hard time with taking Qui-Gon's "cause rather than effect" belief on the issue with a grain of salt given that, again, he was regarded as a bit of a kook. Certainly his "be mindful of the Living Force" comment was an odd turn of a phrase that we never heard from anyone else. Again I'm sure the EU has lots to say on this, but I just don't care or pay attention to it. It was like a thirty second scene.

[Ingmar]

I think George Lucas just can't spell 'mitochondrion'.

[Margalis]

I don't really have a hard time with taking Qui-Gon's "cause rather than effect" belief on the issue with a grain of salt given that, again, he was regarded as a bit of a kook.

That's one possible explanation. A more plausible one: shitty writing in a shitty movie.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's the thing: I don't really care. What midichlorians are and what they do is of just about the same interest to me as why only a Furyan can kill the Lord Marshal or exactly WTF that big ball of "evil" in Fifth Element is supposed to be. As in, maybe enough for a post, but still not much. Han Solo and his parsecs? Obvious vocabulary failure, don't care, don't need some rambling explanation.

There are movies where I care about scrupulously logical writing, and then there are big dumb space epics.

[schild]

Don't drag the Riddick or Fifth Element into a Star Wars discussion.

[WindupAtheist]

If you want to tell me you think that Riddick and Element were much better movies than Sith, well then okay, whatever. I like all of those movies and it's not the argument I'm having. But let's not pretend any of them made, you know, sense.

[Ironwood]

Looking at it solely from that point of view, I have to agree with WUA.

[Abagadro]

The other two were McGuffinesque but at least advanced the plot.  The midiclorian nonsense was both superfluous and somewhat contradictory to prior explanations.  So I don't put them all in the same category.

Not to mention they were lame.  Giant ball of fiery evil death incarnate?  Not lame.

[WindupAtheist]

What prior explanation? It was two or three lines of superfluous dialogue. A handful of lines across the entire series. Nobody gave a shit except for nerds upset to see their own made-up ideas about the Force contradicted.

[IainC]

I'm always entertained when WUA mocks Star Wars nerds for taking it too seriously.

[Abagadro]

That is simply untrue.  Midiclorians were reductivist compared to the exapansive construction of the force throughout the first three movies.  It isn't a direct contradiction (as I indicated) because it is mechanistic and that was never explained previously but it was certainly different in tone and nature compared to the established narrative.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Nerds may have had a   reaction to midochlorians but my reaction was more   The fact is it's just a stupid and unncessary explanation.  You don't need a scientific explanation for what amounts to 'magic' in a what was really more a fantasy story than a sci-fi one.  The whole midochlorian thing was switching genres mid-swing and it showed.  It may have been symptomatic of the whole prequels really as so much of the mystery and magic was turned into shitty dime store sci-fi.

[eldaec]

                                     ANAKIN

                         Master, sir... I've been wondering...

                         what are midi-chlorians?



                                     QUI-GON

                         Midi-chlorians are a microscopic

                         lifeform that reside within all living

                         cells and communicates with the Force.



                                     ANAKIN

                         They live inside of me?



                                     QUI-GON

                         In your cells. We are symbionts with

                         the midi-chlorians.



                                     ANAKIN

                         Symbionts?



                                     QUI-GON

                         Life forms living together for mutual

                         advantage. Without the midi-chlorians,

                         life could not exist, and we would

                         have no knowledge of the Force. They

                         continually speak to you, telling

                         you the will of the Force.



                                     ANAKIN

                         They do??



                                     QUI-GON

                         When you learn to quiet your mind,

                         you will hear them speaking to you.



                                     ANAKIN

                         I don't understand.



                                     QUI-GON

                         With time and training, Annie...you will




Yes it was that stupid, stop trying to remember it as correlation rather than cause.

[Brogarn]

Yes it was that stupid, stop trying to remember it as correlation rather than cause.

That fucking hurt to read. I remembered it as being bad but... wow...

 

[DraconianOne]

I think you guys have had a jedi mind trick played on you because that wasn't as bad as it got:

QUI-GON:With your permission, my Master. I have encountered a vergence in the Force.
YODA : A vergence, you say?
MACE WINDU : Located around a person?
QUI-GON : A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

[Abagadro]

Heh.  I had forgotten about the whole virgin-birth nonsense.

[Oban]

Heh.  I had forgotten about the whole vergen-birth nonsense.

[WindupAtheist]

I'm always entertained when WUA mocks Star Wars nerds for taking it too seriously.

That is simply untrue.  Midiclorians were reductivist compared to the exapansive construction of the force throughout the first three movies.  It isn't a direct contradiction (as I indicated) because it is mechanistic and that was never explained previously but it was certainly different in tone and nature compared to the established narrative.

 

[Abagadro]

I love the irony of being tagged derisively as a SW nerd (hint: my comment is film criticism not nerdrage but you can never tell the difference) by a guy who posts incessently on the topic and speaks authoritatively about message board spats by obscure EU authors.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, I had a geek epiphany around here about a year and half ago when someone in some SWG thread was nerdraging about the term "laser sword" being used in the prequels. I was like... uh... that phrase was spoken once. By a little kid. They responded with a bunch of references to stage directions from the Phantom Menace script and quotes from years-old Lucas interviews that I'd never heard of where he used the term. I was just like... wow.

I know I'm "the Star Wars guy" around here because I liked the prequels and don't mind saying so, but don't go thinking I top the f13 "Guys Who Know the Most About Star Wars" or "Guys Who've Given the Most Money to George Lucas" lists. I don't even crack the top ten on that second one.

[IainC]

I know I'm "the Star Wars guy" around here because I liked the prequels and don't mind saying so, but don't go thinking I top the f13 "Guys Who Know the Most About Star Wars" or "Guys Who've Given the Most Money to George Lucas" lists. I don't even crack the top ten on that second one.

That's only because numbers 1-9 are all Jain Zar

[Merusk]

I know I'm "the Star Wars guy" around here because I liked the prequels and don't mind saying so, but don't go thinking I top the f13 "Guys Who Know the Most About Star Wars" or "Guys Who've Given the Most Money to George Lucas" lists. I don't even crack the top ten on that second one.

That's only because numbers 1-9 are all Jain Zar

You'd have to throw Darniaq and I under the bus on that list, too. We just keep our mouths shut.

[Abagadro]

If that's the metric, the money I've given to Lucas in the last 25 years amounts to whatever royalties he managed to get off of: The three Zahn Thrawn books, 5 movie tickets (two of the re-releases and the prequals each once), the Ultimate Collection Laserdisc set, SWG, KOTOR, and the SW Lego Saga.  I don't even own any of the movies on DVD.

For a Star Wars nerd I'm a pretty lousy one.

[Cyrrex]

I know I'm "the Star Wars guy" around here because I liked the prequels and don't mind saying so, but don't go thinking I top the f13 "Guys Who Know the Most About Star Wars" or "Guys Who've Given the Most Money to George Lucas" lists. I don't even crack the top ten on that second one.

That's only because numbers 1-9 are all Jain Zar

You'd have to throw Darniaq and I under the bus on that list, too. We just keep our mouths shut.

I'm pretty close to the top of that list, more than likely.  I won't defend any of it too hard though.  I could care less about George Lucas' canon, because quite frankly...I think I know SW canon better than he does.  Millions of people probably do at this point, including many people on this very board.  It helps that I am a master at suspending disbelief (you have to be with this stuff) and can fill in all the logical gaps in my head.  The best parts of Star Wars, for me, have little to do with whatever George did.

[Ratman_tf]

Heh.  I had forgotten about the whole virgin-birth nonsense.

The virgin birth thing is pretty low on my totem pole of issues with the prequels. It's not like Jesus came up with it first. 

[WindupAtheist]

I'm pretty close to the top of that list, more than likely.  I won't defend any of it too hard though.  I could care less about George Lucas' canon, because quite frankly...I think I know SW canon better than he does.  Millions of people probably do at this point, including many people on this very board.  It helps that I am a master at suspending disbelief (you have to be with this stuff) and can fill in all the logical gaps in my head.  The best parts of Star Wars, for me, have little to do with whatever George did.

Are we talking about the EU? Because I like my Zahn and my KOTOR as much as any good nerd, but let's not act like there isn't plenty of utterly preposterous shit in there, even if you discount kiddie-book insanity like Triclops and little Kenny Palpatine.

[lamaros]

I agree with Ab. As far as the plot went he could have just said "woah, I sense massive force in this little kid" and "woah, I get a strange feeling that he is important when about him, maybe it's to do with that hokey prophecy yanno?", which makes it pretty  .

But at the same time, after that scene was finished I was over caring that it sucked and just laughing at the next stupid thing that the movie doled out.

Another view: I've always thought that the original series borrowed heavily from Dune, including the force, and the introduction of midi-chlorians actually brings it closer to the biological aspect of that series. Maybe Lucas was just trying to clear up a misconception that popped up when he borrowed ideas from Herbert without being explicit.

As an aside... it's pretty clear there's a hereditary connection with the force in the originals ("the force is strong in my family") so it's silly for people to assume that only the midi-chlorians added that...