Neverwinter Nights Online. (Cryptic Studios)

[Ingmar]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

Its not a direct translation from the P&P game, which seems to be where most of the shrills of "IT'S NOT D&D!!!" are coming from.  Those neck beard shit pumps aren't worth listening to, IMO.  If you're looking to relive your glory days of sitting around the kitchen table with your friends rolling dice with greasy fingers from the bag of chips you've been eating, then you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for an MMORPG that is BASED on the D&D setting with enough features to differentiate itself from every other fantasy MMO available AND know that from time to time the cash will punch you in the dick to remind you its there and has some stuff that would make your time in game easier, then you might enjoy  it.

It borrows the setting (probably the least popular incarnation of the Forgotten Realms, all told) and the names of the powers and some other labeling. Mechanically there is no D&D there, the end. This isn't a good/bad thing, it's just true.

[Ingmar]

You anti voice people are fucking weird.

Push to talk. You can do everything else you can do normally, and you can play games with others much better.

If you've played anything without a mic in the past decade you've dragged down whoever else was putting up with you.

I can't listen to music at the volume I prefer to and still hear other people on voice chat, so no, you can't do everything else you can do normally. Remember, we're not really talking about during raids for the most part, most of us grumble and turn our voice chat on for that. Bloodworth was expressing surprise that people don't replace normal everyday guild chat with voice. That is what is making most of us go  .

[Azuredream]

Looking through the foundry I can't see anything that tells you what level they are for.  Do they scale or do you just travel through them to find level appropriate ones with trial and error?

They scale. I'm only level 25 but I've been told that the maps start scaling to be harder as you become higher level- someone might make a map with tough combat thinking it's fine, only for it to be nigh-impossible for a really high level character. This is just what I've heard, though- could be totally wrong.

[Sjofn]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

Its not a direct translation from the P&P game, which seems to be where most of the shrills of "IT'S NOT D&D!!!" are coming from.  Those neck beard shit pumps aren't worth listening to, IMO.  If you're looking to relive your glory days of sitting around the kitchen table with your friends rolling dice with greasy fingers from the bag of chips you've been eating, then you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for an MMORPG that is BASED on the D&D setting with enough features to differentiate itself from every other fantasy MMO available AND know that from time to time the cash will punch you in the dick to remind you its there and has some stuff that would make your time in game easier, then you might enjoy  it.

It is so far removed from D&D it makes me wonder why they bothered. If that makes me a neckbeard shit pump, so be it, but the fact remains that aside from the setting (which is generally the least important thing to make a game "D&D" for people, I suspect) and the names for things, there is basically nothing at all in this game that makes it D&D. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, "Does this have anything to do with D&D" is more of a yes/no than good/bad question, and the answer is decidedly towards the "no" end of the spectrum.

[koro]

Ah, my highest is level 18. But it's dumb if the skirmish one is higher level, just because ... you can get them so early.

At 18 you should be getting skirmish dailies for Orc Assault or whatever it's called; the one in the Tower District. I did that daily yesterday on my Rogue.

[Sjofn]

So NOT from the kobold, but from people in the actual zone attached to the skirmish? 'Cause I thought that was just a one-off, I didn't realize that was repeatable (mostly because I didn't notice it saying it was anywhere) and it didn't give me astral diamonds for doing it.

If it IS from the kobold, then he is holding out on me for some reason.

[Ingmar]

I don't get skirmish dailies either, at 17.

[Ard]

You don't even need to go to the kobold to get the quests, hit L and there's a box in the lower right corner.  You only need to go to him to turn them in, and they are indeed level restricted as far as I can tell.  I got more different types of dailies as I got higher in level, up through the 20s.

[koro]

Huh, I did a daily skirmish yesterday, and today it's not available. My Cleric has daily skirmishes for Storming the Keep though.

[Wasted]

Looking through the foundry I can't see anything that tells you what level they are for.  Do they scale or do you just travel through them to find level appropriate ones with trial and error?

They scale. I'm only level 25 but I've been told that the maps start scaling to be harder as you become higher level- someone might make a map with tough combat thinking it's fine, only for it to be nigh-impossible for a really high level character. This is just what I've heard, though- could be totally wrong.

Thanks

[Ginaz]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

Its not a direct translation from the P&P game, which seems to be where most of the shrills of "IT'S NOT D&D!!!" are coming from.  Those neck beard shit pumps aren't worth listening to, IMO.  If you're looking to relive your glory days of sitting around the kitchen table with your friends rolling dice with greasy fingers from the bag of chips you've been eating, then you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for an MMORPG that is BASED on the D&D setting with enough features to differentiate itself from every other fantasy MMO available AND know that from time to time the cash will punch you in the dick to remind you its there and has some stuff that would make your time in game easier, then you might enjoy  it.

It is so far removed from D&D it makes me wonder why they bothered. If that makes me a neckbeard shit pump, so be it, but the fact remains that aside from the setting (which is generally the least important thing to make a game "D&D" for people, I suspect) and the names for things, there is basically nothing at all in this game that makes it D&D. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, "Does this have anything to do with D&D" is more of a yes/no than good/bad question, and the answer is decidedly towards the "no" end of the spectrum.

If you say to yourself "This doesn't look like D&D to me...oh well"  instead of "Fuck this shit!!!  This is NOT D&D you assholes!!!  This is a fucking travesty!!!"  then you are not a neck bearded shit pump.  Go you.   Seriously, though, I don't know how you would be able to translate the PnP D&D into a video game without it being awful.  Not that I've ever been a huge fan, but from my understanding theres more to the D&D franchise than just the PnP game.  Why is it so hard to separate the tabletop game with everything else that surrounds it?  Would it be more fair to say Neverwinter is "inspired by" or "based on" D&D?  Would it really matter in the end?

[Sjofn]

It's not even "based on," which is the part that's mystifying to me. It is, at best, "vaguely sort of aware 4E exists." It has basically nothing to do with its source material. Which just makes me go "seriously, why bother?"

[Pezzle]

Yes, it does matter.

When you are using a brand name to pimp your game it carries certain expectations.  Look at games like NWN, Pool of Radiance, Planescape etc.  They captured good portions of what the players craved not only from a game system but from the world.  In some cases that was good writing or an awesome setting.  In others it was custom crafted content that provided thrills for your players.  At the very least you had fans familiar with a setting that they really wanted to participate in.

I'm sorry, but this game falls short.  There are many reasons I feel this way.  Part of it could be the disenchantment with 4E and the changes for change sake they made to Forgotten Realms.  It could be the ham fisting done to make it an MMO  I cannot really recreate any of my D&D characters of any edition remotely faithfully in this game.  

Actually, maybe it is because there is no actual possibility for a DM.  In the single player games you sort of dealt with what there was and had your fun.  In something like this with multiple players?  You need a DM.  It is why my best memories of games like EQ (and certainly NWN) involved DM or guide events.  It is why I would get yelled at as a guide for wandering the oasis and interacting with players in some silly way.  People love that stuff.  They eat it up.  It is magic.  

If you strip away the decent writing, DM interaction, connection to a character and a familiar world what you are left with can just be called Orc Smash MMO.  Sure it can be fun for awhile, but the name attachment is a lie told by a company to separate you from your money, not a commitment to any sort of quality.

[Stormwaltz]

Not part of the current debate:

The Crypts of Kelemvor ("Sealing the Crypts") is clever. It uses the PC's tendency to go straight for the shiny and tricks of perspective and architecture to send you into avoidable harm. It's the first dungeon I played like a D&D dungeon - cautiously and searching each room before I enter. I hope there's more like this.

[Lakov_Sanite]

So would a DND card game NOT be DND just because it doesn't use pnp mechanics? What about board games, dice games?

Get the fuck over yourselves, it's a DND MMO, the end.

[Zetor]

(insert gif from the D&D cartoon seriesmovie here) 

Anyway, the foundry's kinda losing its luster for me. It's not the capabilities (I keep saying the toolset's REALLY awesome, and it is), it's the entire infrastructure surrounding it along with the nerfs falling into the same pattern I've seen in the COH MA 4 years ago. Fool me once...

[Goumindong]

Look at games like NWN, Pool of Radiance, Planescape etc.  They captured good portions of what the players craved not only from a game system but from the world

NWN was atrocious. Its only saving grace was the DM mode.

[Sjofn]

Hit level 20, got given the skirmish daily. What a doofy level to save that for.

[Cyrrex]

Look at games like NWN, Pool of Radiance, Planescape etc.  They captured good portions of what the players craved not only from a game system but from the world

NWN was atrocious. Its only saving grace was the DM mode.

NWN was my first real foray into any type of D&D, and I basically loved the shit out of it.  You, sir, just touched me in my bathing suit area.  I really never understood why some people hate it so much, but maybe that's because I never tried P&P.

[koro]

Look at games like NWN, Pool of Radiance, Planescape etc.  They captured good portions of what the players craved not only from a game system but from the world

NWN was atrocious. Its only saving grace was the DM mode.

NWN was my first real foray into any type of D&D, and I basically loved the shit out of it.  You, sir, just touched me in my bathing suit area.  I really never understood why some people hate it so much, but maybe that's because I never tried P&P.

People hated NWN because:

1. It was ugly, even for the time.
2. The camera controls were sloppy.
3. All the other  controls weren't much better.
4. The stock original campaign was embarrassingly bad, especially following BG2.
5. You only had full control over yourself and not your whole party, even in single-player.
6. D&D purists hated it because it pretty much butchered 3E's ruleset to make it balanced enough for a solo player.*

All that said above? I still absolutely love NWN, both 1 and 2. NWN1 has been a permanent fixture on my hard drive since it launched, and it's one of the only games I've ever bought all the DLC for.

*There were scads of forum debates when Temple of Elemental Evil was coming out between NWN fans and the folks who lauded TOEE for its pretty strong adherence to 3E rules. That is, until Atari fucked it all up.

[Maledict]

I'm not sure on the mechanics, but after reading up on the shit heap that is the lore currently I am appalled by what they have done to the settings, in particular my beloved Planescape.

It makes absolutely no fucking sense at all, completely contradicts all previous lore and writing, and replace one of the few areas of the game with decent writing with a terrible schlock pile of nonsense. Seriously - asmodeus absorbs a minor Forgotten Realms gods power and that allows him to re-order the entire planes and end the blood war? That's complete gibberish!

I honestly don't know who they are trying to please with the lore stuff. Is there really a huge contingent of forgotten realms fans out there who want to see the entire game and universe modelled on that awful crap pile of a world?

[Ingmar]

FR has the largest fan base of any of their settings, yes. IIRC it is by an extremely wide margin, too.

EDIT: Also, seriously, worst netcode ever.

[koro]

I also see that Cryptic's so short-staffed that they're not even policing player names. I've seen two level 60s on Mindflayer with nothing but ASCII penises for names.

[Sjofn]

God help me, I'm actually getting used to rubberbanding all over the fucking place.

[Merusk]

I'm not sure on the mechanics, but after reading up on the shit heap that is the lore currently I am appalled by what they have done to the settings, in particular my beloved Planescape.

It makes absolutely no fucking sense at all, completely contradicts all previous lore and writing, and replace one of the few areas of the game with decent writing with a terrible schlock pile of nonsense. Seriously - asmodeus absorbs a minor Forgotten Realms gods power and that allows him to re-order the entire planes and end the blood war? That's complete gibberish!

I honestly don't know who they are trying to please with the lore stuff. Is there really a huge contingent of forgotten realms fans out there who want to see the entire game and universe modelled on that awful crap pile of a world?

I thought most of the lore rewrites were done to kill characters watch was having to pay royalties on since they were created under TSR's more creator-friendly mantle.  Like Elminster is still owned by Greenwood even though he sold the Forgotten Realms setting itself.

[Ironwood]

Look at games like NWN, Pool of Radiance, Planescape etc.  They captured good portions of what the players craved not only from a game system but from the world

NWN was atrocious. Its only saving grace was the DM mode.

The first iteration totally was.  Utter bollocks.

Those people who didn't give it a second chance to play Undrentide and Hordes really, really missed out.

So much better.

[Mrbloodworth]

Who cares if people were farming ogres that fought back or couldn't fight back? If they wanted to avoid that they should have made lots of titles and achievements and cool looking gear templates that you only get if you stop and smell the flowers and do the story content while you are appropriate level. Then there is a compelling reason for some people to not want to kill helpless ogres for max level in min time.

You should always always as a game dev be trying to give people a reason to want to do things the way you think they should be done not punishing people who don't agree with you.

Or you can act like Bloodworth. Which is the route all these devs seem to choose.

Bullshit. This is purely about MMO "Firsts" and some sort of self worth for reaching 60 before anyone. Games have rules that define them, or else they are not games. Children make up new rules for games when they don't understand them, or want to make sure they win. "Why not let people break the rules" is possibly one of the most retarded conversations I have seen on this board.  Attempting to paint developers as some sort of sadistic creationists because they make games, that have rules, is beyond retarded and you should feel bad for even saying it.

Know what you do if you don't like a how a game plays? Play something else. Why are you playing something that you do not find fun, masochist, compulsion, lack of will? HERP A DERP let me cheat because why not? Get the fuck out.

[Threash]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

Its not a direct translation from the P&P game, which seems to be where most of the shrills of "IT'S NOT D&D!!!" are coming from.  Those neck beard shit pumps aren't worth listening to, IMO.  If you're looking to relive your glory days of sitting around the kitchen table with your friends rolling dice with greasy fingers from the bag of chips you've been eating, then you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for an MMORPG that is BASED on the D&D setting with enough features to differentiate itself from every other fantasy MMO available AND know that from time to time the cash will punch you in the dick to remind you its there and has some stuff that would make your time in game easier, then you might enjoy  it.

It is so far removed from D&D it makes me wonder why they bothered. If that makes me a neckbeard shit pump, so be it, but the fact remains that aside from the setting (which is generally the least important thing to make a game "D&D" for people, I suspect) and the names for things, there is basically nothing at all in this game that makes it D&D. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, "Does this have anything to do with D&D" is more of a yes/no than good/bad question, and the answer is decidedly towards the "no" end of the spectrum.

Because they wanted the "neverwinter" name to be associated with it because of the foundry.

[Draegan]

God help me, I'm actually getting used to rubberbanding all over the fucking place.

I haven't had any network/lag/rubberbanding at all. Just hit level 30 woot.

Bullshit. This is purely about MMO "Firsts" and some sort of self worth for reaching 60 before anyone. Games have rules that define them, or else they are not games. Children make up new rules for games when they don't understand them, or want to make sure they win. "Why not let people break the rules" is possibly one of the most retarded conversations I have seen on this board.  Attempting to paint developers as some sort of sadistic creationists because they make games, that have rules, is beyond retarded and you should feel bad for even saying it.

Know what you do if you don't like a how a game plays? Play something else. Why are you playing something that you do not find fun, masochist, compulsion, lack of will? HERP A DERP let me cheat because why not? Get the fuck out.

You are being either stupid or naive. People play these games (MMORPGs) their own way. A lot of people love min/maxing and they can't do that until max level when they have all their ability points and they can focus on gear acquisitions. These people level as fast as possible because it just gets in the way. Why do you care if these people bypass leveling content? Leveling content, in a MMORPG is the most transient content ever.

While the whole ogre exploit things is retarded and they should do something about it, getting a stick up your ass because "people should play exactly the way I want them" is a stupid attitude to have. You can't tell people what fun is, an as long as the foundry shit isn't hurting the economy or PVP who cares? The only thing they are exploiting is time commitment, and in a game without a subscription, who gives a shit?

These people are trying to get to the point that they find the most fun, that dungeon grinding/gear grinding where they level up their gearscore.

Also, you should stop using analogies.

[Mrbloodworth]

"people should play exactly the way I want them" is a stupid attitude to have.

I never said that, once again people are intentionally misconstruing what I am saying. Power leveling, Min/Maxing/ Alternate leveling routes can be part of and accounted for in a design. Thats all well with in the rules, rules are part of the definition of games. Cheating is not power leveling. Min/Maxing is not cheating. Games have rules, those rules allow for different modes of play. Cheating is cheating.

I am technically one of those people, as I can't stand going from quest hub to quest hub. However I highly enjoy the "drop in" content of the foundry, skirmishes and PvP. But I also have no need to rush to 60.

The very idea that "Cheating is OK, because the content is subjectively boring" is retarded, and that what a number of people here have proposed. Just play another game.

[Draegan]

"people should play exactly the way I want them" is a stupid attitude to have.

I never said that. Power leveling, Min/Maxing/ Alternate leveling routes can be part of and accounted for in a design. Cheating is not power leveling. Min/Maxing is not cheating. Games have rules, those rules allow for different modes of play. Cheating is cheating.

I am technically one of those people, as I can't stand going from quest hub to quest hub. However I highly enjoy the "drop in" content of the foundry, skirmishes and PvP. But I also have no need to rush to 60.

Yeah I know it's cheating, but I really don't care. If I were the devs, I wouldn't care either. If they want to skip out on the leveling content, why not. Hell, I'd drop a 40$ cash-shop item that gives you a free level 60 if I were them.

It's a free to play game. They shouldn't care since it does not effect other people at all. It actually helps the "end game" crowd by populating it more. If the game was subscription based, it would be a totally different argument.

In the end, who really cares? Let people have fun. Don't punish others.

[Mrbloodworth]

Hell, I'd drop a 40$ cash-shop item that gives you a free level 60 if I were them.

If the game was designed for that, sure. But its not, and its clearly outside the developers intentions.  Riot?

[Engels]

You anti voice people are fucking weird.

Push to talk. You can do everything else you can do normally, and you can play games with others much better.

If you've played anything without a mic in the past decade you've dragged down whoever else was putting up with you.

I can't listen to music at the volume I prefer to and still hear other people on voice chat, so no, you can't do everything else you can do normally. Remember, we're not really talking about during raids for the most part, most of us grumble and turn our voice chat on for that. Bloodworth was expressing surprise that people don't replace normal everyday guild chat with voice. That is what is making most of us go  .

I think its got to do with the different types of games BW and others play vs RPG Mmo players. BW and others, like myself, have been playing stuff like Planetside, BF2, World of Tanks, etc, where voice chat is simply not an optional event. When we start to play a fantasy MMO and notice that everyone's happy without voice coms, we're like nudists wondering why everyone's still wearing 'quaint' swimwear at the beach.

That said, its entirely understandable why women are not too keen on getting on voice coms. There is such a seething need by the male gaming community for ANY sort of interaction with a female that things go bad fast.

[Mrbloodworth]

You anti voice people are fucking weird.

Push to talk. You can do everything else you can do normally, and you can play games with others much better.

If you've played anything without a mic in the past decade you've dragged down whoever else was putting up with you.

I can't listen to music at the volume I prefer to and still hear other people on voice chat, so no, you can't do everything else you can do normally. Remember, we're not really talking about during raids for the most part, most of us grumble and turn our voice chat on for that. Bloodworth was expressing surprise that people don't replace normal everyday guild chat with voice. That is what is making most of us go  .

I think its got to do with the different types of games BW and others play vs RPG Mmo players. BW and others, like myself, have been playing stuff like Planetside, BF2, World of Tanks, etc, where voice chat is simply not an optional event. When we start to play a fantasy MMO and notice that everyone's happy without voice coms, we're like nudists wondering why everyone's still wearing 'quaint' swimwear at the beach.

That said, its entirely understandable why women are not too keen on getting on voice coms. There is such a seething need by the male gaming community for ANY sort of interaction with a female that things go bad fast.

Yep, after thinking about it I came the the same conclusion, I do not strictly play MMO's or "social games". Not using a VOIP in a competitive game is just foreign to me now.

So,

[bhodi]

Okay, game was fun, I put maybe 15 hours into it in between leveling two chars and seeing most of the content. Looks like stuff level 35+ is fairly broken in terms of HP and dungeon weirdness, and the fountry is still in it's infancy, so I'll check back in 6 months. See y'all then!