Neverwinter Nights Online. (Cryptic Studios)

[Threash]

If i wanted to talk to people i would not be online.

[Mrbloodworth]

Wow.

I keep forgetting you guys are soloists shut ins.

[Merusk]

I've managed to play MMOs with no working mic since.. forever.  Shit, I even raided (casually) and no one gave a shit.  I think they preferred it.  

Having had to lead very few raids, yes.  I stopped even volunteering because the guy I wanted to squelch most was the guy in charge of the Vent server who wouldn't give me admin rights.  Yammer, yammer, yammer all fucking fight.

Wow.

I keep forgetting you guys are soloists shut ins.

   Ask them about PUGs and Guilds where they have to meet new people. I *dare* you.

[tmp]

You don't know what you are talking about. Its about exploits, not short missions, or leveling though the foundry.

Yes, it's about exploits to make leveling easy and fast. My question is, does it have any actual impact that one should get up in arms about, or is that just kneejerk reaction to the word exploit at this point, while the actual "crime" has no significance?

You can level up a character by farming mobs that don't fight back. Why should anyone care, especially when MMOs have simultaneously trained people into thinking the whole leveling process is meaningless and the game only takes place after this is done and out of the way?

A difference between "They should know to obey the law!" and stopping to wonder "But isn't this particular rule stupid and doesn't it then just make you look ridiculous if you insist on upholding it and punish people for breaking it?", if you will.

[Mrbloodworth]

If you are asking that, why do you even play games.

You can level up a character by farming mobs that don't fight back. Why should anyone care, especially when MMOs have simultaneously trained people into thinking the whole leveling process is meaningless and the game only takes place after this is done and out of the way?

Next time I play DnD with my friend, I'll just roll my toon as a level 500 and tell him good night I guess. Because I won DnD. F-it right? It didn't hurt anyone.
Next time I play a chess match, i'll just knock all his pieces over. Next time I play Sudoku, ill just fill in random shit.

By definition "A game is structured playing".

[Tannhauser]

Can I get a guild invite?  Names Tannhauser Gates.  Mindflayer of course.

[Cheddar]

Can I get a guild invite?  Names Tannhauser Gates.  Mindflayer of course.

I will be in game in like an hour.  Letme know on bat country channel if you still need invite.

[koro]

In a game with no worldiness, why is a player grinding a farm to cap any worse than me downloading a god-mode mod for Skyrim? In terms of its effect on you, is it different from powerlevling by playing 16 hours a day or buying experience boosts?

Skyrim does not have an economy and an Auction house.

The effect of farm maps on the NW economy is probably negligible. You only get three things out of such maps: XP, gold, and green items.

XP is the main reason people do the maps; it's not uncommon to gain three levels in about ten minutes this way.

Gold is nigh-on useless, and arguably comes quicker through running skirmishes or dungeons. The only way it can really affect the economy is through people buying starter-tier companions or the 5 gold scrub mounts and then relisting them on the AH to try and get people to buy them with ADs instead. So two items that you really only need one of each per character are now flooding the market at low prices. The horror.

Green items are about the same as gold, and worth about as much - that is, not a lot. I've run many, many Foundry missions (mostly normal story missions, but also a few non-exploit farms for giggles) and have yet to see a single blue item drop from a kill.

---

That said, the farm maps where mobs can't fight back? I'm all for getting rid of those. For everything else, though? Fair game, in my book.

[Ingmar]

If you are asking that, why do you even play games.

You can level up a character by farming mobs that don't fight back. Why should anyone care, especially when MMOs have simultaneously trained people into thinking the whole leveling process is meaningless and the game only takes place after this is done and out of the way?

Next time I play DnD with my friend, I'll just roll my toon as a level 500 and tell him good night I guess. Because I won DnD. F-it right? It didn't hurt anyone.
Next time I play a chess match, i'll just knock all his pieces over. Next time I play Sudoku, ill just fill in random shit.

By definition "A game is structured playing".

These are really specious examples and it pains me that you see them as the same thing. I'm not even on the pro-level-exploit-map side, but these are just terrible.

[Sjofn]

Wow.

I keep forgetting you guys are soloists shut ins.

Spoken like a Dude on the Internet. My mic has been "broken" since I got it.

I use voice chat sometimes (or used to, I haven't actually fired it up since I played WoW) but even when I was using voice chat, I was still ALSO using text. Text is still the primary way to chitchat with people on the internet. Crazy, I know. Nothing soloist shut-in about it.

[Hoax]

Who cares if people were farming ogres that fought back or couldn't fight back? If they wanted to avoid that they should have made lots of titles and achievements and cool looking gear templates that you only get if you stop and smell the flowers and do the story content while you are appropriate level. Then there is a compelling reason for some people to not want to kill helpless ogres for max level in min time.

You should always always as a game dev be trying to give people a reason to want to do things the way you think they should be done not punishing people who don't agree with you.

Or you can act like Bloodworth. Which is the route all these devs seem to choose.

Point being, its a free game, your lucky your not paying 5$ to use the chat.

You're lucky I don't force you to do something that isn't fun and make it take even longer! Or cost more money to avoid it! (by this logic obviously its acceptable to sell xp boosters or imba items that trivialize content in the cash shop, that's a victimless crime you see)

If you are asking that, why do you even play games.

Next time I play DnD with my friend, I'll just roll my toon as a level 500 and tell him good night I guess. Because I won DnD. F-it right? It didn't hurt anyone.
Next time I play a chess match, i'll just knock all his pieces over. Next time I play Sudoku, ill just fill in random shit.

If you aren't playing my way you might as well not even play the game at all. It hurts people when you level differently than they do. Because everyone wishes they were leveling through this shit content faster to get to the endgame where they've been told the fun might actually exist. That's not a problem with the game design (no fun til endgame) that's a problem with you goddamn meddling players!

*edit* just wanted to make sure I had this in here *edit*

perhaps you're doing the whole "playing games" things wrong.

  Don't be this guy kids. Never be this guy.

[Bzalthek]

I'm not one to say "Maybe it's not for you" (insert penny arcade) but perhaps you're doing the whole "playing games" things wrong.  We've been doing this whole MMO thing for almost 15 years now.  The "fun is at the endgame!!!" argument is bullshit. It's not.  Exploiting the foundry shit (and no amount of semantics is going to make it not exploiting) to level faster because it's "unfun" at [level < MAX] is also bullshit.  It's not unfun at [level < MAX], its that a certain subset of players are unable to rest until [level = MAX] and think it's bullshit that they should have to level like normal fucking plebes because they are real gamers and deserve to be max level and any method of getting there is fine.  I mean, who really cares if you exploit to max level, right?  Apparently you do.  Get over it and find another game to play if you're pathologically unable to follow game rules.

[Ingmar]

Eh, I do think the 'game rules' thing is a bit daft; at its core this is a technical failure by Cryptic, and one they had to have been fully aware they were making at this point. This isn't a 'creative use of mechanics/bugs/geometry' kind of exploit; this is a 'using the tools you 'designed' and then gave them' one and those need to be dealt with more forgivingly early on and they need to actually fix their shit rather than just banning people.

[Cheddar]

I'm not one to say "Maybe it's not for you" (insert penny arcade) but perhaps you're doing the whole "playing games" things wrong.  We've been doing this whole MMO thing for almost 15 years now.  The "fun is at the endgame!!!" argument is bullshit. It's not.  Exploiting the foundry shit (and no amount of semantics is going to make it not exploiting) to level faster because it's "unfun" at [level < MAX] is also bullshit.  It's not unfun at [level < MAX], its that a certain subset of players are unable to rest until [level = MAX] and think it's bullshit that they should have to level like normal fucking plebes because they are real gamers and deserve to be max level and any method of getting there is fine.  I mean, who really cares if you exploit to max level, right?  Apparently you do.  Get over it and find another game to play if you're pathologically unable to follow game rules.

Not sure what your position is on this.  Thank you for keeping it real!

[Sjofn]

Who cares if people were farming ogres that fought back or couldn't fight back?

I care only in that they are the same people who will cry there is nothing to do at cap after rocketing to it as fast as possible (and they will do this regardless of how fun the leveling is, without fail), which is annoying as fuck to listen to. It also usually means the people who didn't do that will get to eat XP nerfs and see virtually all new content being added being geared towards those fucktards instead of anyone else. But the worst part for me is that it makes it really annoying to wade through the Foundry to find quests that aren't shitty farming missions (although a tag system would probably help that enough for my tastes).

While I think Bloodworth is clumsy at best in his decrying the farming shit, I do have to wonder why people would bother with a game where they want to skip as much of it as humanly possible. I have not heard the fun starts at cap in this game, personally, but even then, I don't get why you wouldn't just ... play something more fun.

[tmp]

Next time I play DnD with my friend, I'll just roll my toon as a level 500 and tell him good night I guess. Because I won DnD. F-it right? It didn't hurt anyone.
Next time I play a chess match, i'll just knock all his pieces over. Next time I play Sudoku, ill just fill in random shit.

By definition "A game is structured playing".

"especially when MMOs have simultaneously trained people into thinking the whole leveling process is meaningless and the game only takes place after this is done and out of the way?"

You don't "win" a MMO. For that matter you don't win DnD if you get to level 500, either. The same basic gameplay continues to exist at the level cap and no, technically nothing prevents you from starting your DnD character from l.5, 15 or even 500.

The other two examples are similarly just If you really wanted to use chess here, a better analogy would be one where the player picks up a game which was already advanced to certain situation, instead of starting from initial position. But imagine that, "chess problems" actually exist, are quite popular and 'legit' variation of chess people play with, to the point there's even tournaments for these. Sudoku example is even worse in this regard.

[tmp]

We've been doing this whole MMO thing for almost 15 years now.  The "fun is at the endgame!!!" argument is bullshit. It's not.

Personal mileage etc, but I do find the game considerably more fun when I have 10-20 skills to juggle, than when i'm only equipped with 2-3 and i'm forced to press these 2-3 keys for long periods of time just to earn my right to be able to press one extra button.

To bring example from another field, fighting games either allow you to access full range of moves from the start, or if they feature unlocks these are made available from the start in the "game+". This may be because they are more concerned with the player's fun than with prolonging the experience to squeeze couple more subscription fees from the player.

[Cheddar]

Next time I play DnD with my friend, I'll just roll my toon as a level 500 and tell him good night I guess. Because I won DnD. F-it right? It didn't hurt anyone.
Next time I play a chess match, i'll just knock all his pieces over. Next time I play Sudoku, ill just fill in random shit.

By definition "A game is structured playing".

"especially when MMOs have simultaneously trained people into thinking the whole leveling process is meaningless and the game only takes place after this is done and out of the way?"

You don't "win" a MMO. For that matter you don't win DnD if you get to level 500, either. The same basic gameplay continues to exist at the level cap and no, technically nothing prevents you from starting your DnD character from l.5, 15 or even 500.

The other two examples are similarly just If you really wanted to use chess here, a better analogy would be one where the player picks up a game which was already advanced to certain situation, instead of starting from initial position. But imagine that, "chess problems" actually exist, are quite popular and 'legit' variation of chess people play with, to the point there's even tournaments for these. Sudoku example is even worse in this regard.

Trolling, right?

Edit.  Yup, saw post duex. 

[Numtini]

ersonal mileage etc, but I do find the game considerably more fun when I have 10-20 skills to juggle, than when i'm only equipped with 2-3 and i'm forced to press these 2-3 keys for long periods of time just to earn my right to be able to press one extra button.

That's why EQ2 remains my favorite game, but for whatever reason, I'm really liking this one.

BTW I can't remember if it was mentioned here, but there's an offline crafting thing at https://gateway.playneverwinter.com/

[Phred]

That's why EQ2 remains my favorite game, but for whatever reason, I'm really liking this one.

Wait. Are you max level already? I thought that was the only place games were fun. Did I hear wrong?

[koro]

Also it sure would be nice if I could at least get a response to the ticket I have regarding my Rogue's borked stats:


I guess I'm somewhat thankful I'm not one of those many poor saps who's bought $200 in Zen and still hasn't gotten it.

[Megrim]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

[Stormwaltz]

Why, it has both dungeons AND dragons!

[proudft]

If i wanted to talk to people i would not be online.

Oh god don't get me started on voice chat.  I am firmly in the voice-is-only-for-poopsockers club.  Can't take a phone call, can't listen to music, have no record of what someone says while you're afk or alt-tabbed, can't make stupid cat face emoticons - bah!

Also, the general public has terrible terrible mic discipline, blurting out whatever they think is funny at any given moment, usually in a staticy burst of gibberish with loud music and/or sound effects playing in the background. 

Thirdly, if I have to take in-game orders from some squeaky 13-year old I'd really rather not hear his Very Special Episode of Brady Bunch voice telling me TOO MANY WHELPS while I'm trying to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

I think there is some kind of generational divide here though, with the older people wanting to be immersed in this Experience of being in a fantasy world, and the young whippersnappers wanting to Share This (much-shittier because you can't shut up) Experience with all their friends IMMEDIATELY RIGHT NOW OMG THAT WAS JUST LIKE ON ARCHER YESTERDAY REMEMBER WHEN HE SAID DANGER ZONE, OH DUDE LISTEN TO THIS SONG DUDE DUDE LISTEN DUDE I AM GOING TO PLAY THIS EVERY RAID NOW.

Ahem.  So, yeah, I hate voice chat.  Even though I have the voice of an angel.

And now that half a dozen people have posted while I was typing this, it looks out of place but oh well.

I also am in the 'they know what they were doing, ban the shit out of them' camp vis-a-vis exploiters.  I do happen to feel that my own game accomplishments are diminished by somebody else basically cheating their way up.  All you have in these games are levels, gear, and your own personality, and the exploiters just basically pooped all over at least one of them.

[Sjofn]

I kinda wish there was a daily astral diamond thing for doing skirmishes.

[Ginaz]

So does this game have anything to do with D&D?

Its not a direct translation from the P&P game, which seems to be where most of the shrills of "IT'S NOT D&D!!!" are coming from.  Those neck beard shit pumps aren't worth listening to, IMO.  If you're looking to relive your glory days of sitting around the kitchen table with your friends rolling dice with greasy fingers from the bag of chips you've been eating, then you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for an MMORPG that is BASED on the D&D setting with enough features to differentiate itself from every other fantasy MMO available AND know that from time to time the cash will punch you in the dick to remind you its there and has some stuff that would make your time in game easier, then you might enjoy  it.

[Ginaz]

I kinda wish there was a daily astral diamond thing for doing skirmishes.

I thought there was?

[Threash]

There is, for pvp also.

[Malakili]

  Can't take a phone call, can't listen to music, have no record of what someone says while you're afk or alt-tabbed, can't make stupid cat face emoticons - bah!

This is the number one reason I don't use voice chat more.  If i am using VOIP when gaming, it means the ONLY thing I'm doing right then is playing the game.  But to maximize my leisure time I often listen to the radio or a lecture on youtube or a stream of some kind while I am playing a game, which means voice chat it out.  I use it sometimes, but generally only with real life friends at this point (although I did use it for WoW raiding back when I did that - though this probably fits in your poopsockers category).

[Nija]

You anti voice people are fucking weird.

Push to talk. You can do everything else you can do normally, and you can play games with others much better.

If you've played anything without a mic in the past decade you've dragged down whoever else was putting up with you.

[Malakili]

You anti voice people are fucking weird.

Push to talk. You can do everything else you can do normally, and you can play games with others much better.

If you've played anything without a mic in the past decade you've dragged down whoever else was putting up with you.

Only things that I've played in the last decade that require voice were WoW raiding and few competitive league teams in shooters.  I used voice for those. I still use voice sometimes with friends to chat while playing.  The vast majority of my game time at this point is spent either gaming alone or with people I don't know, and fucked if I'm talking to random strangers over voice chat.

[Sjofn]

I kinda wish there was a daily astral diamond thing for doing skirmishes.

I thought there was?

I've only had the little kobold give me ones for dungeons and Foundry shit. So feel free to tell me where to pick it up.

There ARE the little mini-map rotating things that have skirmishes and PvP pop up, but those aren't really dailies, and I can't do them when I feel like it, but when the game feels like rewarding me for it (which I don't really mind, in general, but they are inconvenient unless I am lucky ... usually when I log in it's the professions one or it's in a period where NOTHING is happening).


EDIT: Also voice chat as a woman with strangers - or even NON-strangers, depending on the guild - is often a hassle I'd rather do without. Unless I am actively leading a raid or I'm doing some sort of competitive PvP (and I haven't done either since I stopped playing WoW over a year ago), my mic stays off, and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. 

[Azuredream]

They're all from the kobold. You might have to level up some more for him to offer them, not sure.

[Sjofn]

Ah, my highest is level 18. But it's dumb if the skirmish one is higher level, just because ... you can get them so early.

[Wasted]

Looking through the foundry I can't see anything that tells you what level they are for.  Do they scale or do you just travel through them to find level appropriate ones with trial and error?