Neverwinter Nights Online. (Cryptic Studios)

[Lantyssa]

Well fuck me. Someone talk me down from $200.

It's not $200, it's $400.

[Riggswolfe]

I am going to be an uber-nerd and ask this. Does it look like roleplay will be possible in this game?

[Zetor]

That's a bit broad... roleplay is possible in *any* game, even Diablo. Obviously games with no levels or a strong mentoring system (COH) fare better, as do sandboxy games (UO, and yes, SWG). This game isn't particularly sandboxy except for the Foundry, though.

[Bzalthek]

*I put on my wizard hat and robe*

[Riggswolfe]

That's a bit broad... roleplay is possible in *any* game, even Diablo. Obviously games with no levels or a strong mentoring system (COH) fare better, as do sandboxy games (UO, and yes, SWG). This game isn't particularly sandboxy except for the Foundry, though.

Fair enough. I'm taking a SharePoint class today so my post was somewhat hasty. I mean, does it have anything to support it beyond "Yes, we have emotes and chat." For example, in STO, Starbases and Embassies for fleets have also turned into RP hubs. Does this game have, at the least, things like bars and other interior spaces that are not dungeons/mission areas.

[Zetor]

SharePoint? My condolences. 

There are a few gathering places like that in the city itself, yeah (inn in Protector's Enclave could work)... though I'm pretty sure they do 'soft instancing' within city zones too, and you'd have people running around doing Foundry missions (you can pick them up from inns, and a few of the "embeddable" quest NPCs are in the inn).

[Xilren's Twin]

There are a few gathering places like that in the city itself, yeah (inn in Protector's Enclave could work)... though I'm pretty sure they do 'soft instancing' within city zones too, and you'd have people running around doing Foundry missions (you can pick them up from inns, and a few of the "embeddable" quest NPCs are in the inn).

My question on this subject is basically, are there any non combat skills/abilities/stuff to do that you could build in with foundry missions.  Beyond just detect traps/disarm traps or open locked stuff.  Trying to get a feel for what sort of non-combat focused modules you could make.  Do they have dialogue skills checks, or known language stuff, or basically anything besides action combat that would validate the use of a D&D license?

[Merusk]

Nope.

There's not even a pick-lock skill.  The one hidden area I found was unlocked using a glowy "Dungeoneering Required" harvest node.  If I hadn't had one of those buff items I wouldn't have been able to unlock it as a solo Cleric.

It's a pure combat ARPG.

[Ginaz]

There are a few gathering places like that in the city itself, yeah (inn in Protector's Enclave could work)... though I'm pretty sure they do 'soft instancing' within city zones too, and you'd have people running around doing Foundry missions (you can pick them up from inns, and a few of the "embeddable" quest NPCs are in the inn).

My question on this subject is basically, are there any non combat skills/abilities/stuff to do that you could build in with foundry missions.  Beyond just detect traps/disarm traps or open locked stuff.  Trying to get a feel for what sort of non-combat focused modules you could make.  Do they have dialogue skills checks, or known language stuff, or basically anything besides action combat that would validate the use of a D&D license?

I didn't see anything in the few foundry missions I ran that they have what you were asking about.  They were all combat in nature and none of the quests, even the non-foundry ones as well, had any real dialogue choices like say SWTOR or TSW.

[Zetor]

Yeah, the extent of dialogue trees seems to be flavor - you can have conversation options that are greyed out unless you have a certain class skill (or use the appropriate consumable) like religion/dungeoneering/thievery/etc... but I wouldn't call that a real skill check.

edit: you MAY be able to trigger certain events through conversation (answer the riddle wrong and you have to fight 50 demons), if that counts.

[shiznitz]

Can the characters jump or fly at all? Is there any climbing?

[Falconeer]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

[Merusk]

Can the characters jump or fly at all? Is there any climbing?

You guys are really looking for game & tech systems way far too far beyond "Dude, it's an MMORPG made with the STO engine."   There's jumping, even a little platforming but that's it.

It's not D&D with some crazy never-going-to-happen engine like HeroQuest or DerekSmart: Themmoining. It's D&Diablo.  Those are your game systems.

[Nonentity]

I'm a sucker for bug mounts, but i'm not $400 sucker for bug mounts.

I guess I'll get the $60 version and pretend i'm on a bug mount. Until they sell me the bug mount standalone for 20 bucks.

[Malakili]

Can the characters jump or fly at all? Is there any climbing?

You guys are really looking for game & tech systems way far too far beyond "Dude, it's an MMORPG made with the STO engine."   There's jumping, even a little platforming but that's it.

It's not D&D with some crazy never-going-to-happen engine like HeroQuest or DerekSmart: Themmoining. It's D&Diablo.  Those are your game systems.

I think the question probably comes from the fact that the engine is also used for Champions Online, which has a lot of different movement styles (travel powers). 

[Ginaz]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

I never played any PnP D&D and have only had a mild interest in it over the years.  Which is probably why I enjoyed this so much.  I didn't hold a grudge and expected the game to match any nostalgia for the past.  I think the sticking point for a lot of people is slapping the D&D name onto something they consider not to be D&D in any way.  If you can get past that, theres a fairly entertaining game to be played.

[Sjofn]

Well fuck me. Someone talk me down from $200.

It's not $200, it's $400.

 

[Xilren's Twin]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

I never played any PnP D&D and have only had a mild interest in it over the years.  Which is probably why I enjoyed this so much.  I didn't hold a grudge and expected the game to match any nostalgia for the past.  I think the sticking point for a lot of people is slapping the D&D name onto something they consider not to be D&D in any way.  If you can get past that, theres a fairly entertaining game to be played.

Eh, while disappointed, i am not really surprised.  I'll still give it a go with clear eyes; as much as I'd love some deep player content creation there just doesn't appear to be anything like that on the horizon.  I enjoy ARPGs as much as the person, but with D3, TL2, and PoE i feel like that itch gets scratched pretty well (and I also assume this game isnt a loot-a-palooza like those games).   I actually understand what WotC is doing the 4E version of D&D, positioning it to be a better fit for easy adoption into video games.  Doesn't mean i don't wish someone will try to go un-massive, slower paced, deeper party style games.

[Ginaz]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

I never played any PnP D&D and have only had a mild interest in it over the years.  Which is probably why I enjoyed this so much.  I didn't hold a grudge and expected the game to match any nostalgia for the past.  I think the sticking point for a lot of people is slapping the D&D name onto something they consider not to be D&D in any way.  If you can get past that, theres a fairly entertaining game to be played.

Eh, while disappointed, i am not really surprised.  I'll still give it a go with clear eyes; as much as I'd love some deep player content creation there just doesn't appear to be anything like that on the horizon.  I enjoy ARPGs as much as the person, but with D3, TL2, and PoE i feel like that itch gets scratched pretty well (and I also assume this game isnt a loot-a-palooza like those games).   I actually understand what WotC is doing the 4E version of D&D, positioning it to be a better fit for easy adoption into video games.  Doesn't mean i don't wish someone will try to go un-massive, slower paced, deeper party style games.

I understand that I'm just seeing a lot of people (not really here) arguing over what D&D should be or which edition is better and which should be used.  It gives me a bit of a headache TBH.  From what I've read, many people stopped playing with anything after the 3rd edition and aren't familiar with whatever edition (4th?) this game is using.  For example, in 4E you had two basic types of Clerics: Ranged and Melee. The ranged cleric, which is in the game now, primarily casts spells from range and heals. The other cleric, the melee cleric, is primarily strength based, and uses a mace and shield in battle along with healing.  Again, I'm not really familiar with D&D but didn't the dungeon masters have the ability to say what can and can't be used or done in the PnP version?  Maybe think of Cryptic as the DM and this is how they want the game to be played? 

[Evildrider]

2nd Edition fo' life yo! 

[Malakili]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

I never played any PnP D&D and have only had a mild interest in it over the years.  Which is probably why I enjoyed this so much.  I didn't hold a grudge and expected the game to match any nostalgia for the past.  I think the sticking point for a lot of people is slapping the D&D name onto something they consider not to be D&D in any way.  If you can get past that, theres a fairly entertaining game to be played.

Eh, while disappointed, i am not really surprised.  I'll still give it a go with clear eyes; as much as I'd love some deep player content creation there just doesn't appear to be anything like that on the horizon.  I enjoy ARPGs as much as the person, but with D3, TL2, and PoE i feel like that itch gets scratched pretty well (and I also assume this game isnt a loot-a-palooza like those games).   I actually understand what WotC is doing the 4E version of D&D, positioning it to be a better fit for easy adoption into video games.  Doesn't mean i don't wish someone will try to go un-massive, slower paced, deeper party style games.

I understand that I'm just seeing a lot of people (not really here) arguing over what D&D should be or which edition is better and which should be used.  It gives me a bit of a headache TBH.  From what I've read, many people stopped playing with anything after the 3rd edition and aren't familiar with whatever edition (4th?) this game is using.  For example, in 4E you had two basic types of Clerics: Ranged and Melee. The ranged cleric, which is in the game now, primarily casts spells from range and heals. The other cleric, the melee cleric, is primarily strength based, and uses a mace and shield in battle along with healing.  Again, I'm not really familiar with D&D but didn't the dungeon masters have the ability to say what can and can't be used or done in the PnP version?  Maybe think of Cryptic as the DM and this is how they want the game to be played? 

I think its more about play style than specific mechanics.  Dungeons and Dragons, for those who have played pencil and paper, is often about long sessions with friends, turn based combat, and lots of ... roleplaying.  The most memorable moments in all of my D&D games over the years come from interesting out of combat situations.  Reducing D&D to basically an ARPG just isn't D&D anymore, at least not like most of us who play D&D think of it.  I'm not saying you can't have an ARPG that is loosely based on D&D ideas.. hell ALL RPGS are pretty much loosely based on D&D ideas, but there is just so much history wrapped up in D&D that you are bound to rub PnP players the wrong way with something like this.

It is made doubly worse by the fact that Neverwinter Nights, which was arguably the greatest D&D RPG on computer (mainly because of its AMAZING toolset and DM client), really blended the great parts of D&D with the advantages of a computer RPG.  Taking that name and marketing on that legacy makes it all the tougher pill to swallow when it isn't replicated here.  Neverwinter Nights was amazing. AMAZING.  This is at best a shell of it, trying to sell itself on the same bullet points.

[UnSub]

Neverwinter was a MMO before it was a single player RPG.

[Falconeer]

I just think that MMO RPGs are kind of literally meant for roleplaying. In some ways, they are even better than pen and paper at that. It's a shame that a MMORPG with the D&D brand offers so little support for it (from what I heard). Almost less than what is offered by any other generic Western RPG out there.

[Merusk]

People who played P&P D&D are a small and dwindling number. Much like the EU the nostalgic folk need to go away for the greater IP to survive.   Kids play computer games.  Those who want to RP in them will do so as the imagination is greater than the game engine anyway.

Neverwinter was a MMO before it was a single player RPG.

Yeah, I recall the disappointment that NWN *wasn't* an MMO reboot of the AOL game, so the reverse happening now is fun.

[Shannow]

2nd Edition fo' life yo! 

Noob. 1st edition forever.

[Lantyssa]

Preach it brother!  (Can I keep Unearthed Arcana though?  Pleeaaaaase?)

[DevilsAdvocate25]

Wow. I tried not to care about this game but reading the reports I couldn't help growing an interest. Reading how badly they disrespected the D&D pnp roleplaying origins and nature, I think I'll make a point of not supporting this title. This coming from someone that thinks D&D has been an insult to roleplaying since 3rd Edition, but there's a limit.

I never played any PnP D&D and have only had a mild interest in it over the years.  Which is probably why I enjoyed this so much.  I didn't hold a grudge and expected the game to match any nostalgia for the past.  I think the sticking point for a lot of people is slapping the D&D name onto something they consider not to be D&D in any way.  If you can get past that, theres a fairly entertaining game to be played.

Eh, while disappointed, i am not really surprised.  I'll still give it a go with clear eyes; as much as I'd love some deep player content creation there just doesn't appear to be anything like that on the horizon.  I enjoy ARPGs as much as the person, but with D3, TL2, and PoE i feel like that itch gets scratched pretty well (and I also assume this game isnt a loot-a-palooza like those games).   I actually understand what WotC is doing the 4E version of D&D, positioning it to be a better fit for easy adoption into video games.  Doesn't mean i don't wish someone will try to go un-massive, slower paced, deeper party style games.

I understand that I'm just seeing a lot of people (not really here) arguing over what D&D should be or which edition is better and which should be used.  It gives me a bit of a headache TBH.  From what I've read, many people stopped playing with anything after the 3rd edition and aren't familiar with whatever edition (4th?) this game is using.  For example, in 4E you had two basic types of Clerics: Ranged and Melee. The ranged cleric, which is in the game now, primarily casts spells from range and heals. The other cleric, the melee cleric, is primarily strength based, and uses a mace and shield in battle along with healing.  Again, I'm not really familiar with D&D but didn't the dungeon masters have the ability to say what can and can't be used or done in the PnP version?  Maybe think of Cryptic as the DM and this is how they want the game to be played? 

I think its more about play style than specific mechanics.  Dungeons and Dragons, for those who have played pencil and paper, is often about long sessions with friends, turn based combat, and lots of ... roleplaying.  The most memorable moments in all of my D&D games over the years come from interesting out of combat situations.  Reducing D&D to basically an ARPG just isn't D&D anymore, at least not like most of us who play D&D think of it.  I'm not saying you can't have an ARPG that is loosely based on D&D ideas.. hell ALL RPGS are pretty much loosely based on D&D ideas, but there is just so much history wrapped up in D&D that you are bound to rub PnP players the wrong way with something like this.

It is made doubly worse by the fact that Neverwinter Nights, which was arguably the greatest D&D RPG on computer (mainly because of its AMAZING toolset and DM client), really blended the great parts of D&D with the advantages of a computer RPG.  Taking that name and marketing on that legacy makes it all the tougher pill to swallow when it isn't replicated here.  Neverwinter Nights was amazing. AMAZING.  This is at best a shell of it, trying to sell itself on the same bullet points.

I have always described D&D exactly the opposite of the way you just did. It's always been a game predicated on the DIKU style of kill things so you can get better gear and level up so that you can kill bigger, stronger things for better loot and level up, ad infinitum. The whole idea of min-maxing starts with the first time you throw the dice and get a low strength stat and the game tells you that you can't play a fighter with strength less than 10, but if it's higher than 14 you get a bonus to melee damage and strength related actions like bending bars and breaking down doors.

The roleplaying is a side effect of playing the game because any group of people playing a game together are going to socialize and that socializing can be harnessed to tell great stories. The alignment system helped with guiding the roleplaying, as did race and class choice, but even these things caused min-maxing non-roleplaying related choices.

As far as 4th Edition, I bought it and read it and played it once with a group. It is designed around ideas from MMOs. Character classes are categorized by Striker, Tank, Healer, and Buffer/Debuffer mechanics. Every class has at least 2 different paths that you can go down with the character. I recall that Warlock has 3 different paths depending on where you decide your power comes from. Many of the mechanics require you to play on a grid (for example, there is a charge skill that pushes the opponent back a certain number of squares and has effects on other enemies if they are within a certain number of squares). Healing is based around the idea that each player can be healed a limited number of times but that the healer has no limit on how many people he can potentially heal. They do this by having each character have healing charges that are spent when you heal them. The taunt skill is neat. It doesn't force creatures to attack the fighter, but if they don't, he gets melee advantages to hit and to dmaage against them. Almost every striker class has a mechanic where they mark a target and they get a bonus of some kind against it.

It will make a great computer game. It could make a great roleplaying game if they borrowed from the Neverwinter toolset and implemented the tools that would allow the players to create stories.

[Shannow]

Preach it brother!  (Can I keep Unearthed Arcana though?  Pleeaaaaase?)

Keep it? It's required! Cavaliers are go! (avatar update is go too.)

[Ruvaldt]

2nd Edition fo' life yo! 

Explaining Thac0 to players for the thousandth time destroys my will to run another 2nd edition campaign.

[Bzalthek]

Thac0 was the litmus test.  People who couldn't understand how it worked were the "special" people.

[blackwulf]

When my friends and I played D&D it was 90% RPing around town, dealing with merchants, nobility, etc.  We would buy land, build houses, manage serfs, etc.  As we got more and more into the world and characters we went through the utterly tedious aspect of D&D combat less and less.  I think novice D&D games focus more on combat and a lot less on RP.

[Abelian75]

I find it very weird that people were actually confused by Thac0.  Don't get me wrong, it was definitely an odd formulation, but it certainly was never hard to use or anything, even when I was, like, eight years old.

Granted, I was definitely in the "AD&D is primarily about nonviolent encounters, not combat" crowd, so I guess maybe I'm not the best judge of combat mechanics.

[Kail]

I find it very weird that people were actually confused by Thac0.  Don't get me wrong, it was definitely an odd formulation, but it certainly was never hard to use or anything, even when I was, like, eight years old.

Yeah, my group mostly played Palladium stuff, so Thac0 was actually the streamlined, simplified ruleset for us.

[Ghambit]

Color me mad.  All they needed was original NWN with updated graphics and more user-friendly tools, and they would've had a hit.  This?  I just... I mean it's really unremarkable and a complete waste of the IP.  Like a million other shitty twitch Korean ARPGs only this is D&D-ish.  I think.

Cryptic.  The world's best "shit on a great IP" gaming company.

[UnSub]

Cryptic.  The world's best "shit on a great IP" gaming company.

In a week where Aliens: Colonial Marines launched, they aren't even close.

Also, let's not hold Forgotten Realms up as an epic, untouchable setting that NWN was the beginning and end of. FR has had plenty of terrible additions over the years and is generally looked down on as a generic high fantasy setting. FR generally gets rated under Spelljammer, Dark Sun and even Ravenholme as an interesting setting.

I'm waiting to see what the Foundry adds to this title. AFAIK, this is the first MMO to launch with player created mission content as an option.