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Author Topic: World of Tanks  (Read 1092316 times)
jakonovski
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Reply #980 on: May 11, 2011, 02:03:42 AM

Really?

Apparently they are buffing the IS-3 while nerfing the T1, M6, and TigerII.

Yeah, I can't tell if it's tank related self esteem problems or what. But seriously, what gets me is that the balance changes are all so tiny. All that time fiddling and what they come up with is stuff like changing the turret depression by 3 degrees?


kildorn
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Reply #981 on: May 11, 2011, 05:12:24 AM

I love the dev in the US forum. "Look, these changes make a lot of sense... when we add new german tanks and drop all the current ones down a tier!"

Yeah, great, so until that happens, you're just mauling the german lines more, and buffing well performing tanks in preparation for another patch? :P
Numtini
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Reply #982 on: May 11, 2011, 05:22:23 AM

It's a Russian game. I would not expect the German tanks to get any favors from the devs.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Amarr HM
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Reply #983 on: May 11, 2011, 05:49:07 AM

It's a Russian game. I would not expect the German tanks to get any favors from the devs.

It's Belarusian. I don't think it would matter what country made it, Germany didn't win the war.

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kildorn
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Reply #984 on: May 11, 2011, 05:55:13 AM

It actually seems to be that they balance based on usage statistics and win/loss ratios per tank, not the actual tank's performance compared to it's tiermates.

So if a shitload of people own a t-34, but a lot of them get into shitty matches and it's global win/loss rate is 40/60 or something, the t-34 needs buffs. Regardless of it's actual performance as a tank.
jakonovski
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Reply #985 on: May 11, 2011, 06:31:37 AM

Their logic makes no sense. If the matchmaker spreads out the tanks evenly between sides, it doesn't matter how any given tank performs.
Amarr HM
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Reply #986 on: May 11, 2011, 08:59:54 AM

If the matchmaker balances out the tanks and certain tanks perform better than the other tanks in their Tier, then surely that's a sign of them being overpowered, is it not?

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Dark_MadMax
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Reply #987 on: May 11, 2011, 09:24:30 AM


Yeah, I can't tell if it's tank related self esteem problems or what. But seriously, what gets me is that the balance changes are all so tiny. All that time fiddling and what they come up with is stuff like changing the turret depression by 3 degrees?


If you read the patch notes they made TONS of changes. -long awaited bug fixes  for various game, graphics, UI and model annoyances. Balance changes are imho pretty major as well -  combined with visibility and tracking changes it could turn out to play very differently
Tmon
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Reply #988 on: May 11, 2011, 10:01:03 AM

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Battle_Mechanics#Earning_Experience

Spotting will change in the .4 patch.  Supposedly it will be harder to tanks to remain hidden when they shoot and there will be a better chance of seeing them even when they sit still.  Additionally the .4 patch will make it harder to knock the tracks off a tank by changing the detracking hit boxes to the front and rear sprockets/idler wheels.  Hits in the middle of the track will do more damage to the tank than the tracks.  Since a tracked scout is a dead scout this should help a lot.
ezrast
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WWW
Reply #989 on: May 11, 2011, 10:17:23 AM

If they nerf stealth I'm screwed. Bushes are the only things that keep me alive. No matter what I'm driving.
Amarr HM
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Reply #990 on: May 11, 2011, 10:23:26 AM

"You will get more experience for discovering an SPG than for a regular tank."

Ah so that's why I always get craptons of XP for finding and killing their arty when I scout.

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jakonovski
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Reply #991 on: May 11, 2011, 11:01:42 AM

If the matchmaker balances out the tanks and certain tanks perform better than the other tanks in their Tier, then surely that's a sign of them being overpowered, is it not?

Not really, because both sides should have the OP tanks. I mean it could be a sign of that if they were really so powerful that the signal showed through the matchmaker attempting to put similar tanks on both sides, but it could also be a sign of a gazillion other factors, the biggest being RNG and "what sort of drooling idiots are on my team this time". Win ratio is not a very good data point by itself.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:05:07 AM by jakonovski »
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #992 on: May 11, 2011, 11:26:10 AM


Not really, because both sides should have the OP tanks. I mean it could be a sign of that if they were really so powerful that the signal showed through the matchmaker attempting to put similar tanks on both sides, but it could also be a sign of a gazillion other factors, the biggest being RNG and "what sort of drooling idiots are on my team this time". Win ratio is not a very good data point by itself.

Sigh.On average americanspeople are too dumb to understand statistics
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:48:05 AM by Dark_MadMax »
jakonovski
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Reply #993 on: May 11, 2011, 11:42:32 AM

God damn those stupid people.
jakonovski
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Reply #994 on: May 11, 2011, 12:25:31 PM

The pro-Russia bent is a bit lol sometimes. I just spent a firefight with my T1 ricocheting rounds off an opposing T-34's turret (aimed at places where I hoped that would not happen), while my front armor might've been cardboard for all the good it did.
UnsGub
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Reply #995 on: May 11, 2011, 12:56:32 PM

Even with the match maker picking the same tiers and tanks there is still a wide range of differences.  Stock verse fully upgrade is huge with some tanks.  Playing in a platoon verse no platoon can be huge.

There are people winning 75% of their fights over hundreds of battles.  Game knowledge and team work more then makes up for the tier and type of tanks that are being driven.
Amarr HM
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Reply #996 on: May 11, 2011, 01:44:18 PM

Aye true but when everyone has between 75-90% win ratio in the 'Hotchkiss' (German gold tank) I think you can attribute this to the fact it's OP as fuck.

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jakonovski
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Reply #997 on: May 11, 2011, 01:46:49 PM

Aye true but when everyone has between 75-90% win ratio in the 'Hotchkiss' (German gold tank) I think you can attribute this to the fact it's OP as fuck.

It's so OP that if there's even one in a match that side almost always wins regardless of what the other 29 tanks do? I doubt that, though I don't doubt it's OP.
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Reply #998 on: May 11, 2011, 02:16:17 PM

Aye true but when everyone has between 75-90% win ratio in the 'Hotchkiss' (German gold tank) I think you can attribute this to the fact it's OP as fuck.

It's so OP that if there's even one in a match that side almost always wins regardless of what the other 29 tanks do? I doubt that, though I don't doubt it's OP.

I think the point is you look at what tanks those players who win 75%+ are picking to pilot, on the assumption that that group of players will tend to gravitate to the most OP tank.

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Amarr HM
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Reply #999 on: May 11, 2011, 02:22:07 PM

It's so OP that if there's even one in a match that side almost always wins regardless of what the other 29 tanks do? I doubt that, though I don't doubt it's OP.

Pretty much, I regularly take out 5-6 tanks with this tank before I die if I run alone, this might not win the game but it will win 75% of them. If I run in a platoon of them we nearly can't lose, I might not get as many kills every game but the platoon will share 9+ kills a game. It's this tank btw.

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FatuousTwat
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Reply #1000 on: May 11, 2011, 02:33:10 PM


Yeah, I can't tell if it's tank related self esteem problems or what. But seriously, what gets me is that the balance changes are all so tiny. All that time fiddling and what they come up with is stuff like changing the turret depression by 3 degrees?


If you read the patch notes they made TONS of changes. -long awaited bug fixes  for various game, graphics, UI and model annoyances. Balance changes are imho pretty major as well -  combined with visibility and tracking changes it could turn out to play very differently

Err, I didn't type that.

And also, I don't buy into most of the "THE DEVS HATE GERMANY CAUSE THEY ARE RUSSIAN!!1!" crap that is thrown around, but there are some deficiencies in the German line that have existed for a LONG time and have not yet been resolved (or even acknowledged). Some of the changes that are coming in with the tech-tree update (which wont be for months, and will trickle in very slowly) go towards fixing some issues, but I don't have a lot of faith.

Pretty much, I regularly take out 5-6 tanks with this tank before I die if I run alone, this might not win the game but it will win 75% of them. If I run in a platoon of them we nearly can't lose, I might not get as many kills every game but the platoon will share 9+ kills a game. It's this tank btw.

As part of the next patch they are giving it more "weight" in the matchmaker, so expect to be put in tier 3 matches where you wont do nearly as well from here on.



Edit:
Updated visibility mechanics
English 0.6.4 patch notes
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 02:58:24 PM by FatuousTwat »

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
tmp
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Reply #1001 on: May 11, 2011, 03:49:16 PM

And also, I don't buy into most of the "THE DEVS HATE GERMANY CAUSE THEY ARE RUSSIAN!!1!" crap that is thrown around
I don't think it's that, but rather a natural inclination to view the stuff made by your own nation relatively good, and to want the game to reflect that. And it's easy to overdo.
Amarr HM
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Reply #1002 on: May 11, 2011, 04:08:49 PM

As part of the next patch they are giving it more "weight" in the matchmaker, so expect to be put in tier 3 matches where you wont do nearly as well from here on.

It already gets put into Tier 3 matches (the odd time) and yes it doesn't kick as much ass but it still punches above it's weight, T57s kick it's ass on a regular basis. I also heard that it was getting a nerf to it's ROF and turret speed, but that might be a bit harsh considering it's a gold tank.

I agree with you about the Russian op whine, American heavies are kicking their asses in Tier's 7, 8 and 10. The only Russian heavy that outclasses the US one is the IS4 versus the T34 and that's being made into a T10.

Also have any of you seen the Maus lately? It has 3300 hp.

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Amaron
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Reply #1003 on: May 11, 2011, 04:11:26 PM

Not really, because both sides should have the OP tanks.

How is that fun though for the people who want to play the other tanks?
Engels
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Reply #1004 on: May 11, 2011, 04:59:13 PM

Guys, the discrepancy between german and russian tanks is that russians have huge sloped armor advantages the germans do not. The devs have openly talked about how the quality and strength of german armor should be a factor in penetrative values, but currently isn't, so it gives russian tanks an unfair advantage. Its not working 'as intended', but they do not have their head in the sand either.

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FatuousTwat
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Reply #1005 on: May 11, 2011, 05:06:54 PM

As part of the next patch they are giving it more "weight" in the matchmaker, so expect to be put in tier 3 matches where you wont do nearly as well from here on.

It already gets put into Tier 3 matches (the odd time) and yes it doesn't kick as much ass but it still punches above it's weight, T57s kick it's ass on a regular basis. I also heard that it was getting a nerf to it's ROF and turret speed, but that might be a bit harsh considering it's a gold tank.

I agree with you about the Russian op whine, American heavies are kicking their asses in Tier's 7, 8 and 10. The only Russian heavy that outclasses the US one is the IS4 versus the T34 and that's being made into a T10.

Also have any of you seen the Maus lately? It has 3300 hp.

What I meant is they are changing it so the lowest tier battles you will get into is t3 (at least this is what I've read, it might not be correct).

Guys, the discrepancy between german and russian tanks is that russians have huge sloped armor advantages the germans do not. The devs have openly talked about how the quality and strength of german armor should be a factor in penetrative values, but currently isn't, so it gives russian tanks an unfair advantage. Its not working 'as intended', but they do not have their head in the sand either.

Yeah, but that discrepancy has been around since the start of the game, and there (apparently) has been no attempt to rectify the problem. It seems like as an interim solution they could just give German tanks higher armour or some kind of hidden bonus, but whatever.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:09:37 PM by FatuousTwat »

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
jakonovski
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Reply #1006 on: May 12, 2011, 02:06:41 AM

Guys, the discrepancy between german and russian tanks is that russians have huge sloped armor advantages the germans do not. The devs have openly talked about how the quality and strength of german armor should be a factor in penetrative values, but currently isn't, so it gives russian tanks an unfair advantage. Its not working 'as intended', but they do not have their head in the sand either.

That also makes no sense. Why is it not working as intended? Did they typo the German armor values and then their only keyboard broke? Or are they hell bent on creating some byzantine system instead of just giving the Germans an armor thickness coefficient?

jakonovski
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Reply #1007 on: May 12, 2011, 02:14:13 AM

How is that fun though for the people who want to play the other tanks?

You misunderstand. What I meant is that the OP tanks will often appear on both sides, making all such matches useless for win/loss statistics because one of them will always lose.

edit: then start removing other factors such as top/bottom tank distribution and platoons, and all of a sudden you have a rather small and selective sample on which to base your balancing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 02:20:36 AM by jakonovski »
Amarr HM
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Reply #1008 on: May 12, 2011, 02:45:15 AM

You misunderstand. What I meant is that the OP tanks will often appear on both sides,

You obviously haven't taken note of the madness that is the matchmaking system. It never spreads the tanks evenly on both sides, most of the time one side will have 3 KVs or 3 T29s and the other side none. Perhaps there is method to this madness?

Also German armour values are fine I bounce off the front of KTs, JagT, AusfBs and Maus more often than any other tanks. Especially the AusfB, their front armor is nuts.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 03:20:26 AM by Amarr HM »

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jakonovski
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Reply #1009 on: May 12, 2011, 04:05:38 AM


You obviously haven't taken note of the madness that is the matchmaking system. It never spreads the tanks evenly on both sides, most of the time one side will have 3 KVs or 3 T29s and the other side none. Perhaps there is method to this madness?


That would be a bit circular as well as missing the point. Matchmaking is supposed to make a better gameplay experience for all, not to create the most unbalanced setups.

Also I forgot tank upgrades, which are totally invisible to matchmaking at the moment.
Amarr HM
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Reply #1010 on: May 12, 2011, 04:22:46 AM

That would be a bit circular as well as missing the point. Matchmaking is supposed to make a better gameplay experience for all, not to create the most unbalanced setups.

Not circular at all, the matchmaking system doesn't distribute tanks like for like, that's a fact. One team might end up with a heap of T54s and the other gets a mix of IS4s and Pershings.

Anyway for whatever reason you seem to think that the devs are only looking at win ratios of the various tanks? I'm sure each tank has a performance rating based on stuff like average XP, damage ratios etc.

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jakonovski
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Reply #1011 on: May 12, 2011, 05:34:11 AM

Looks pretty circular to me:

Matchmaker creates mismatches for better balancing data --> balancing is needed because there are so many mismatches


Amarr HM
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Reply #1012 on: May 12, 2011, 07:26:06 AM

Like for like != to mismatch.

Two JagTigers versus two IS4s is a balanced game but not like for like, I'm sure even you can grasp that concept. You know the same tier n'all.

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jakonovski
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Reply #1013 on: May 12, 2011, 07:37:28 AM

You said yourself the matchmaker never spreads anything equally and likes to stack tanks. You also suggested a there was a reason they do this.

And thanks for the insult, speculation on video game mechanics is srs bsns after all.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 07:39:12 AM by jakonovski »
Amarr HM
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Reply #1014 on: May 12, 2011, 07:57:21 AM

Not quite I said it doesn't spread tanks evenly between the two teams. I was referring to exact tank type not tier or imbalances caused by the weighting system. Let me clarify by this statement, the gameplay in random battles is always assymetrical not always imbalanced. The imbalance might be caused by the overpoweredness of certain tanks who are grouped together regularly. Stacked is you just putting words in my mouth.

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