Dungeon Blather

[WindupAtheist]

Ohh god, don't get all loregasmy in here too.

New avatar.  

[K9]

 

[Delmania]

Dear Jesus, Buddha, Yoda, Zeus, Joe Pesci, anyone who's listening... Please let that miserable Horde-kissing twat Jaina die in the 5 man confrontation with the Lich King. With Theramore advancing into the Barrens in Cataclysm, it sure looks like she has to go. And supposedly she's going there to try and redeem Arthas. It's the perfect opportunity for him to stab her and go "MUA HA HA! COME AND GET YOUR REVENGE IN THE NEW RAID, NEWBS!" before flying away on his broom or whatever.

I hate Jaina more than any other Warcraft character.

Wait, is she still trying to redeem him?  Didn't Tirion determine that's really a lost cause?

[Merusk]

Dear Jesus, Buddha, Yoda, Zeus, Joe Pesci, anyone who's listening... Please let that miserable Horde-kissing twat Jaina die in the 5 man confrontation with the Lich King. With Theramore advancing into the Barrens in Cataclysm, it sure looks like she has to go. And supposedly she's going there to try and redeem Arthas. It's the perfect opportunity for him to stab her and go "MUA HA HA! COME AND GET YOUR REVENGE IN THE NEW RAID, NEWBS!" before flying away on his broom or whatever.

I hate Jaina more than any other Warcraft character.

Wait, is she still trying to redeem him?  Didn't Tirion determine that's really a lost cause?

To himself, perhaps.  We had the discussion where Mr. Anagram leads you in the other direction. 

I'm still leaning towards Arthas redeeming himself in the final fight and self destructing/ destroying Frostmourne.   At Blizzcon when the Icecrown Legendary Axe was announced G4 asked "Why not Frostmourne!"  The response was, "Well, if you took hold of Frostmourne, then you wouldn't be playing your character anymore because Frostmourne would overpower your will.   That's all I can say but you'll see what I'm talking about when Icecrown comes out because it's going to feature prominently (in the dungeon/ final fight)"

[Ingmar]

Yeah, that statement didn't strike me as weird at the time, but it is kind of odd in light of the fact that I'm replaying Warcraft 3 now and doing the Arthas parts of it, its pretty clear that Frostmourne's main thing is to make you obey/subservient to the Lich King, act as a conduit for him talking to you, etc? So if the Lich King's dead you'd think that stuff would basically shut down. Maybe Arthas has made some modifications to it.

[LK]

Anything involving Arthas is inconsistent and dick. The book proved that. Whatever is Frostmourne is no longer explainable and illogical in a realm of gnomes and world-invading demons.

[SurfD]

All i remember about Frostmourne was the supposed "sequence of events" involved in it's "appearance".

Goes something like:
- Ner'zhul fails his burning crusade masters during First Orcish Invasion.  Gets captured, has his soul ripped from his body, and his soul is then tortured until it is so scarred and twisted that there is probably nothing much of the original Ner'zhul left.   Then his now totally insane tortured soul is magically bonded to a Suit of Armor + Sword, entombed in a crystal of magical ice, and sent hurtling back to Azeroth through the Twisting Nether.

- The Icy Prison of The Entity that is now Ner'zhul / The Lich King crashes in Icecrown, which causes it to crack slightly.  The crack is big enough to allow the Sword (Frostmourne) to be forced out of the prison.  The Lich King then uses his incredible mental abilities to start subverting the locals, raising the dead, gathering minions (like Kel'thuzad) and eventually set in motion the events that lead to Arthas (his chosen mortal Vessel) picking up the sword, trecking to icecrown and completely shattering his prison, and then putting on the Armor.

So the big question is:  What properties did Frostmourne / The Lich King Armor have BEFORE Ner'zhuls soul was bound to them?  There are LOADS of theories as to what Frostmourne actually is, one of the more interesting ones being that it is the polar opposite of Ashbringer (theory being that each one is forged from a Fragment of a Naaru, one in it's Dark state, the other in it's Light state after being purified).  However, since literally NOTHING is actually known about where, when or even how Frostmourne was created, all we can do is speculate.  One thing I wonder about though, is that the Armor and the Sword came as a set.  Maybe more attention should be payed to the Armor as well?

Somehow, regardless of what the book says Arthas THINKS he did (he thinks he destroyed Ner'zhuls soul in a battle of wills over who would be the dominant personality in the "Lich King" body), I don't think we have seen the last of Ner'zhul, and I am pretty sure that since Ner'zhuls tortured soul was bound to the Armor / Sword (as in, the Lich King had no PHYSICAL BODY before Arthas, but existed completely as a Possessed Sentient Artifact), the only way to completely purge Frostmourne of his influence would be to destroy the sword.

I mean, heck, for all we know, "Arthas" doesn't even NEED a physical body to exist any more, and is probably just as closely bound to the Armor / Sword as Ner'zhul was.

Personally, I think Ner'zhul is fucking with Arthas.  I mean, I don't care how powerful Arthas may have become over the course of the WC3 campaigns, pretty much everything he EVER did after picking up Frostmourne was fueled in part by Ner'zhuls own power, and I highly doubt that someone who started out as a Paladin in training, and was so EASILY manipulated into dragging his soul through the dirt, would even stand a ghost of a chance in a contest of wills against the soul of one of the greatest Necromancers / Warlocks the Orcs ever produced, especially when you consider the kind of power and influence the Lich King could wield while simply stuck in a block of ice in the middle of a glacier.

[Delmania]

So the big question is:  What properties did Frostmourne / The Lich King Armor have BEFORE Ner'zhuls soul was bound to them?  There are LOADS of theories as to what Frostmourne actually is, one of the more interesting ones being that it is the polar opposite of Ashbringer (theory being that each one is forged from a Fragment of a Naaru, one in it's Dark state, the other in it's Light state after being purified).  However, since literally NOTHING is actually known about where, when or even how Frostmourne was created, all we can do is speculate.  One thing I wonder about though, is that the Armor and the Sword came as a set.  Maybe more attention should be payed to the Armor as well?

Tichondrius stated that the Lich King forged Frostmourne.  Go play the first mission of the Undead campaign in Warcraft 3.  As for the armor, it was forged specifically to hold Ner'zhul's esscence.

Somehow, regardless of what the book says Arthas THINKS he did (he thinks he destroyed Ner'zhuls soul in a battle of wills over who would be the dominant personality in the "Lich King" body), I don't think we have seen the last of Ner'zhul, and I am pretty sure that since Ner'zhuls tortured soul was bound to the Armor / Sword (as in, the Lich King had no PHYSICAL BODY before Arthas, but existed completely as a Possessed Sentient Artifact), the only way to completely purge Frostmourne of his influence would be to destroy the sword.

Where did you get that from? Arthas was a very willing servant of the Lich King and I am certain he knew what would happen when he put on the armor.   He was very happy to become the Lich King.

I mean, heck, for all we know, "Arthas" doesn't even NEED a physical body to exist any more, and is probably just as closely bound to the Armor / Sword as Ner'zhul was.

Personally, I think Ner'zhul is fucking with Arthas.  I mean, I don't care how powerful Arthas may have become over the course of the WC3 campaigns, pretty much everything he EVER did after picking up Frostmourne was fueled in part by Ner'zhuls own power, and I highly doubt that someone who started out as a Paladin in training, and was so EASILY manipulated into dragging his soul through the dirt, would even stand a ghost of a chance in a contest of wills against the soul of one of the greatest Necromancers / Warlocks the Orcs ever produced, especially when you consider the kind of power and influence the Lich King could wield while simply stuck in a block of ice in the middle of a glacier.

There really was no contest of wills.  All Ner'zhul has to do was use Arthas''s youth, hot temper, and lust for power against him, and he was easily turned. 

[LK]

According to the book, whatever "soul" occupies the Lich King's shell is no longer any contribution from Ner'zhul or Arthas, or at least the humanity of Arthas. Arthas's "good" side or what not. I don't know what the results of that internal struggle were because the "third" personality, the Death Knight Arthas, is the only remaining entity within the Lich King, and what its motivation is, you got me. Simply to rule? Simply power? The game made it much more mysterious and intriguing, but after reading the ending of the book, it seems really dumbed down and confusing. Classic fofofo villain stuff.

The fall wasn't as excellently narrated in the book. Arthas wants his horse back. Waaaaah. Arthas never in his heart gave a damn about his people (evidenced by the fall and his priorities). He was nice out of ceremony and formality, or at least had a rather unrealistic view of the world due to the fact his "humanity", his inner light, was represented as a naive, innocent child. The Culling of Stratholme was all about spiting Mal'ganis. That he should be surprised his compatriots acted with the horror they did showed that Arthas had gone full retard.

Warcraft lore and status quo is about results by any means, no matter how fucked up the methods. The books that get written, especially retellings, are trying to justify the ludicrous developments, and its clear those restrictions affect the quality of the work.

[SurfD]

Tichondrius stated that the Lich King forged Frostmourne.  Go play the first mission of the Undead campaign in Warcraft 3.  As for the armor, it was forged specifically to hold Ner'zhul's esscence.

Well, problem there (as with a lot of WoW lore) is that it was later expanded upon.  In the Rise of the Lich King story on the official WoW site, it is mentioned specificly that Frostmourne pre dates Ner'zhul, and that his soul was specificly Shackled to the Armor and Bound to the Sword before being encased in the magic icecube that was later to be the Frozen Throne.  So basically, they retconned / expanded the lore so that either Tichondrious was not 100% sure of Frostmournes origins himself, or he was just lying to Arthas so as to avoid having to spill too much information about who his True Masters were (ie, info on Frostmournes origins leading to unwanted pointed questions about the Burning Legion and the fact that the Dreadlords were the Lich Kings jail wardens, and not his friendly associates.)

Where did you get that from? Arthas was a very willing servant of the Lich King and I am certain he knew what would happen when he put on the armor.   He was very happy to become the Lich King.

It supposedly came from the novel dealing with the fall of Arthas.   In the novel, sometime after Arthas puts on the armor, he supposedly engages in a battle of wills with whatever remains of Ner'zhul's soul to decide which "personality" will be the controlling one in the "new" Lich King, and the book has him (him being the Death Knight Arthas personality) utterly crushing the "old" Lich King personality and taking control.  

There is also a scene in the book where he supposedly does some "soul searching" and roots out the last remaining spark of "good" in his soul, has a nice little dialogue with it, and then calmly crushes it beneath his mental boot heel, symbolizing his complete severing of all ties that might remotely bind him to humanity /good / etc and completing his total decent into utter evil.

[LK]

It was all the same scene (Kills the sickly child that represents his humanity and, in a twist, spins around and destroys Ner'Zhul). But according to the game, he never really killed his good side, just extricated the heart (the physical representation of his goodness, I guess) from his body, which persists as a spirit named Matthias Lehner. The Lich King is just a shell, and what's inside might as well be creamy nougat for all I care for him now.

Arthas is dead as a character. There's really nothing left to work with, no character development. He's as flat and uncomplicated in a cartoonish villian sort of way, dramatic cinematics aside. Even Illidian was amusing to watch as he struggled to hang on, knowing defeat was coming but unwilling to accept it, fighting with emotion and fervor before the bitter end. There was personality in Outland. Everyone playing a role. Vashj, Kael'thas, Gruul (Yeah, Gruul. The ogre / gronn stuff was fun and believable.). Interesting stuff was happening.

Arthas / Lich King has been shown as weak, vulnerable, and very uninspiring in every event, where he just sort of stands there the whole time and lets his minions do the dirty work, then he steps in and gets bitch-slapped in some fashion (be it Ashbringer, Forsaken plague, or his heart getting rocked). His power is in the forces he controls, not in his being. The lesson I take: Arthas may be unkillable, perhaps, but not all-powerful.

One-shot Saurfang the Younger aside, of course.

I imagine if he couldn't kill his good side then Ner'Zhul is still in there somewhere, but it's all so convoluted.