Dungeon Blather

[Fordel]

I love how half the higher-end five man shit (even non-heroic) in BC requires a key or some other bullshit. Way to make sure those instances see less activity than Deadmines once the next expansion hit.

That is even after they changed a bunch of shit to make it even more open. Or 'open'.


Oh how many keys did we have to farm for Arc? :(

[Ashamanchill]

Damn it.  I missed the original opening of heroics, and I didn't get to do them until they were long since farmed out, and required a certain build just to gain entrance.  Wait, what changed in the expansion again?

[Rendakor]

While some of the WotLK heroics are harder than others, the difficulty is entirely arbitrary. Every heroic has the same loot formula of "Bosses drop 1 Blue, Final Boss drops 1 Epic, 1 Blue and 1 Frozen Orb;" all heroic loot being ilvl 200. In order for the difficulty to mean something, the harder heroics should offer better loot. One suggestion in that direction would be to up the ilvl of the drops in the harder ones, and/or giving bosses other than the last guy an epic or two on their loot table that they have a chance to drop.

[SurfD]

Damn it.  I missed the original opening of heroics, and I didn't get to do them until they were long since farmed out, and required a certain build just to gain entrance.  Wait, what changed in the expansion again?

When BC first hit, All heroic keys required you to be Revered with the faction connected to the instance.

Many of them also required you to complete a quest or previous dungeon to get the key to open the door, if you didn't want to wait for someone else to open it for you (Shadow Labs, The Shattered Halls, and especially The Arcatraz were like this.  Arcatraz being bar none, the worst)

Sometime near the end of BC, they shifted the entry requirement to get the Key down to Honored, which made it WAY easier for anyone to get in.

[Trebes]

Sometime near the end of BC, they shifted the entry requirement to get the Key down to Honored, which made it WAY easier for anyone to get in.

It was astonishing how hard people raged on the forums against this. I guess it was the "if I had to shove glass shards up my urethra, then so does everyone else forever!" factor.

[Koyasha]

Well, I noticed that immediately after there was a sharp rise in incompetent and undergeared people LFG for heroics.  In Lich King heroics this wouldn't serve that much of a purpose since they're all so easy, but in Burning Crusade heroics were tough, and after they lowered entrance requirements it became harder to find people to fill out groups that weren't worthless.

[SurfD]

Basically what Koyasha said.

When the entry bar for Heroics was Revered, you knew that the person trying to get in generally fulfilled at least 2 qualifications:
1 - they had run the normal instances so many times that the change to heroic would not be that drastic of a shock.
2 - they were most likely properly geared for the place.

2 was usually fulfilled because the only way to get to revered with most factions was to either A: run the normal versions enough times you are going to end up with most of the Best non heroic gear you are likely to get from them before you hit Revered, or B: do all the quests you can for the factions, in which case, you are going to have most of the best quest gear you can get.

Lowering the Bar to Honored (which is stupidly easy to get from just a few dungeon runs and a tiny bit of zone appropriate questing) usually resulted in people who had probably only set foot into the normal version of the instance 2 or 3 times tops, and who were WAY undergeared for the Difficulty curve of many BC heroics turning your Heroic run into a disaster that lasted twice as long as normal and cost you more in repair money then you made running the place.

[K9]

It was a different way of thinking about stuff. In TBC heroics were a significant step up from the top-level normal instances, now at the start of LK, everyone assumed that they would roll straight into heroics and they were tuned as such. In LK everyone does normal instances once if at all and just rolls into heroics at 80, rather than working through the normal versions and rolling into more challenging heroics once they had some grouping experience.

[Trebes]

When the entry bar for Heroics was Revered, you knew that the person trying to get in generally fulfilled at least 2 qualifications:
1 - they had run the normal instances so many times that they longed for the sweet release that only death could bring.

The Revered requirement was horrible. It was bad enough grinding dungeon rep the first time. It was a soul killing experience doing it all over again on an alt.

Sure, you could say that previous games had worse key/attunement requirements, that's just saying that this previous shit sandwich you were forced to eat in the remote past was arguably worse than the current shit sandwich Blizzard was cramming into your mouth. The TBC heroic situation, from difficulty to loot, was confused. You had worse loot than from Karazhan coupled with a higher difficulty level. I'd rather have tanked/healed anything in Karazhan than the last felguard trash in heroic BF.

I'm really pleased with is how much better the WotLK heroic situation is.

Oh, and the dungeon rep tabard deal. That is fantastic.

[K9]

Oh, and the dungeon rep tabard deal. That is fantastic.

Yeah, this is a great improvement. Although I disagree that the WoTLK heroic situation is better in every way.

[SurfD]

Oh, and the dungeon rep tabard deal. That is fantastic.

Yeah, this is a great improvement. Although I disagree that the WoTLK heroic situation is better in every way.

Same here.  I love the fact that the tabards fix the rep grind issue, neatly removing the soul crushing grind from 90% of the Rep dance, however, 90% of the heroics simply do not feel so.

I mean, half the time, you barely even notice some of the instances are set on heroic.  Heroic Violet hold is laughable.  Only a few of the heroics are actually difficult in one way or another, and most of those revolve purely around gimping youself deliberately in an attempt to get certain achieves.

hell, i think 90% of the heroic instances in WOLK can be 4 manned quite efficiently, with only a well geared tank and healer, and some moderately decently geared dps as filler.

A couple of guys in my guild 3 man UP every day for the drake....

[Rasix]

I mean, half the time, you barely even notice some of the instances are set on heroic.  Heroic Violet hold is laughable.  Only a few of the heroics are actually difficult in one way or another, and most of those revolve purely around gimping youself deliberately in an attempt to get certain achieves.

hell, i think 90% of the heroic instances in WOLK can be 4 manned quite efficiently, with only a well geared tank and healer, and some moderately decently geared dps as filler.

A couple of guys in my guild 3 man UP every day for the drake....

HVH is laughable until you get a tank that doesn't understand "KITE THE FUCKING BOSS" and just stands there tanking the ethereal like a dullard.  Void guy can be a pain if you're with a bunch of bads (that guy can get glitchy anyhow).  Those two always pop up when I end up pugging with someone that's completely undergeared and half retarded.  When I'm grouped with people I know it's always a combination of 3 tank'n'snooze bosses.

With a high DPS tank and well geared DPS, you'll easy do the damage you would with 3 ungeared scrubs, and you'll have the bonus of none of the idiots standing in fire. Tangentally, I remember when farming roses for Love Fool title, we'd just 3 man it instead of bringing along a couple of lowbies.  Same principle applies.

I'd like harder heroics if the rewards were somewhat worth it.  Once you get 2 or 3 badge items, you're just farming for BOA gear. There's no Isle badge vendor selling you nice stuff to keep you a step behind the bleeding edge raiders.  Of course people would just do the easy heroics for badges, and then you'd have to likely add yet another level of badge gear to the already unsustainably stupid system they've decided to follow in WOLK.

[K9]

The Arrakoa boss is the toughest if you kill BOTH his adds first. Chained stormstrike and earthshock is nasty.

I hold out hope for the heroic in 3.2 being one where the trash hits for 12K+ and comes in packs of 4; although this would make it harder than all of the trash in Naxx.

[Phred]

I love how half the higher-end five man shit (even non-heroic) in BC requires a key or some other bullshit. Way to make sure those instances see less activity than Deadmines once the next expansion hit.

That is even after they changed a bunch of shit to make it even more open. Or 'open'.

I think you'd have to skip questing completely in the zones the factions with key vendors cover now in order to be locked out of any heroic.

[Malakili]

I love how half the higher-end five man shit (even non-heroic) in BC requires a key or some other bullshit. Way to make sure those instances see less activity than Deadmines once the next expansion hit.

That is even after they changed a bunch of shit to make it even more open. Or 'open'.

I think you'd have to skip questing completely in the zones the factions with key vendors cover now in order to be locked out of any heroic.

Which is entirely possible given the fact that you can hit 68 in Nagrand, go directly to Northrend and never get much rep of anything past cenarion expedition.

[K9]

My alt who did 58-68 in three zones is still honoured with HH and Cenarion, and friendly with the Sha'tar and Lower City, and I haven't done a single instance on it bar a couple of low-level boosts. It's somewhat of a moot point since it's all redundant content now, but the bar to entry is really very low. At worst you can blow through the normal versions to get rep up to revered if needed.

[Phred]

My alt who did 58-68 in three zones is still honoured with HH and Cenarion, and friendly with the Sha'tar and Lower City, and I haven't done a single instance on it bar a couple of low-level boosts. It's somewhat of a moot point since it's all redundant content now, but the bar to entry is really very low. At worst you can blow through the normal versions to get rep up to revered if needed.

Exactly my point. Thank you for a real world example instead of gloomcasting theory.

[WindupAtheist]

I didn't say it was impossible to get into heroics, I said nobody is going to bother. I wanted to try leveling my friend by running her through a supposedly easy heroic like Ramparts, but despite having quested to 70 back in the day as well as run it a fair number of times on normal I was only honored with Honor Hold. So we just did Auchindoun normal stuff until 68 and took off for Northrend. Her health problems are bad enough now that she's not up for much anymore, so it's all moot anyway.

[Xeyi]

I wanted to try leveling my friend by running her through a supposedly easy heroic like Ramparts, but despite having quested to 70 back in the day as well as run it a fair number of times on normal I was only honored with Honor Hold.

You can get the heroic keys at honored rep.  It was changed from revered some way through tbc.  I think you still need to be 70 to enter though.

[jpark]

I still think BRD is the best instance in the game.

I had the best and worst times in wow in BRD.  When I cleared it the first times with my friends and we vowed to do it without a guide, it was a fucking blast.  Grinding out shit for Molten Core would be the worst.  However, I would still nominate it for one of the best put together/cool feel dungeons, losing only to Shadow Fang Keep in my mind.

At least a balance.  I appreciate the fast run new instances but something like BRD or DM would be cool to as an option.

In the end, however, one instance rules them all:  SFK I agree :)

Kara has been the most fun I have had in any "raid" instance.  Super stuff.

[Phred]

I wanted to try leveling my friend by running her through a supposedly easy heroic like Ramparts, but despite having quested to 70 back in the day as well as run it a fair number of times on normal I was only honored with Honor Hold.

You can get the heroic keys at honored rep.  It was changed from revered some way through tbc.  I think you still need to be 70 to enter though.

Ya I think they changed it to honored in the 2nd or 3rd patch after bc shipped.

[WindupAtheist]

I could almost swear it was still revered. In any case I couldn't get the key, and they serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

[Chimpy]

I could almost swear it was still revered. In any case I couldn't get the key, and they serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

No, it was lowered to Honored. It was changed in the same patch that they lowered the 1-60 levelling curve. The only zone that requires anything special to get into heroic mode that regular does not is Magister's Terrace, in which you have to finish the quest that has you speak to Kalecgos inside a regular mode instance, then kill Kael'Thas.

Regardless, levelling inside of heroics is not really feasible as they require the level cap at the time of their release to enter. If you want to instance grind someone who is level 70, Utgarde Keep is probably doable for a level 80 running someone through at this point and is shorter than most of the Burning Crusade instances.

[Phred]

I could almost swear it was still revered. In any case I couldn't get the key, and they serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

No, it was lowered to Honored. It was changed in the same patch that they lowered the 1-60 levelling curve. The only zone that requires anything special to get into heroic mode that regular does not is Magister's Terrace, in which you have to finish the quest that has you speak to Kalecgos inside a regular mode instance, then kill Kael'Thas.

Regardless, levelling inside of heroics is not really feasible as they require the level cap at the time of their release to enter. If you want to instance grind someone who is level 70, Utgarde Keep is probably doable for a level 80 running someone through at this point and is shorter than most of the Burning Crusade instances.

Actually, a  friend took me on a few rampart runs as soon as I brought my dk to Outlands and it was great exp even at normal. I gained a couple of levels that night ( and burned through a week+ worth of rested exp too)

[Rendakor]

Phred, you sound like you are disagreeing; Outland instances are good xp on normal. By the time you can get into the heroics (lvl 70), you could instead be in the low end Northrend instances, which are worth more xp.

[apocrypha]

Which level of dungeons do you all think a badly geared 80 (probably shaman in quest greens'n'blues) would be able to take a couple of dungeon-appropriate-level characters through?

My hour-a-day might get my 2 mains to 80 in the next couple of weeks and my brother's characters are just approaching 60 now, so it'd be nice to be able to take him through some of the Outland instances. Plus, since I was late to TBC there's lots of them I haven't even done myself, but of course getting groups for any instances except level 80 heroics on my server is impossible, especially if you're limited to 1 hour sessions.

Would we be able to manage the TK instances do you think? Maybe even early Northrend ones?

[Rendakor]

What spec is your shaman? And what class(es?) is your brother?

If you're enhance, you could probably handle early Northrend instances (UK, Nexus).

[apocrypha]

Yeah he's enhance, but I've also been collecting a full set of (equally crappy) spellcasting gear so he can go dual-spec whenever I get round to doing it.

Between us we've got loads of different classes we could level past 60. He's got a paladin, a rogue and a DK. I'm a 2-account dual boxer with pretty much one of everything over level 55 (and er, 3 druids, oops). Plus my girlfriend has a level 61 warrior that she has never taken into an instance and has no idea how to play 

[Phred]

Phred, you sound like you are disagreeing; Outland instances are good xp on normal. By the time you can get into the heroics (lvl 70), you could instead be in the low end Northrend instances, which are worth more xp.

Good point. Overall a waste of time then except for nostalgia or something I guess.

[apocrypha]

Didn't want to start a new thread for this so I thought I'd ask in here...

Finally dinged 80 today with my shaman & my paladin and was wondering if anyone can give me some suggestions for quickly and easily gearing them both up a bit for heroics. There's pretty much zero chance of getting groups for non-heroics on my server (believe me I've been trying for weeks) and it's going to be a long time (i.e. probably never) before I'm able to do Northrend instances with the other 2 people in my guild.

I don't mind reputation grinds too much, as long as I can achieve something useful in an hour or so. I also don't need epics, I just don't want to make a complete tit of myself by joining heroic groups and being hopelessly undergeared. Oh and I have no interest at all in WoWs stupid pvp 

Maybe next expansion I won't end up 6 months behind the levelling curve *again*!

[bhodi]

Didn't want to start a new thread for this so I thought I'd ask in here...

Finally dinged 80 today with my shaman & my paladin and was wondering if anyone can give me some suggestions for quickly and easily gearing them both up a bit for heroics. There's pretty much zero chance of getting groups for non-heroics on my server (believe me I've been trying for weeks) and it's going to be a long time (i.e. probably never) before I'm able to do Northrend instances with the other 2 people in my guild.

I don't mind reputation grinds too much, as long as I can achieve something useful in an hour or so. I also don't need epics, I just don't want to make a complete tit of myself by joining heroic groups and being hopelessly undergeared. Oh and I have no interest at all in WoWs stupid pvp 

Maybe next expansion I won't end up 6 months behind the levelling curve *again*!

Argent tourney gives really nice gear for both characters: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=857

Shaman:
In general, the final quest rewards in icecrown give you enough blues to be able to run most heroics. Here's a loot list, weighted for your spec, and you can just go down the list and find the nearest one to the top that you think you can do (this is for when you start running heroics)

Wowhead Elemental Armor Presets
Wowhead Enhancement Armor Presets
Wowhead Restoration Armor Presets

Elemental and Restoration Weapons
Enhancement one-handers

Sorry I don't have equiv gear lists for paladin.

[Malakili]

Didn't want to start a new thread for this so I thought I'd ask in here...

Finally dinged 80 today with my shaman & my paladin and was wondering if anyone can give me some suggestions for quickly and easily gearing them both up a bit for heroics. There's pretty much zero chance of getting groups for non-heroics on my server (believe me I've been trying for weeks) and it's going to be a long time (i.e. probably never) before I'm able to do Northrend instances with the other 2 people in my guild.

I don't mind reputation grinds too much, as long as I can achieve something useful in an hour or so. I also don't need epics, I just don't want to make a complete tit of myself by joining heroic groups and being hopelessly undergeared. Oh and I have no interest at all in WoWs stupid pvp 

Maybe next expansion I won't end up 6 months behind the levelling curve *again*!

Depending on the kind of cash you have to spend, there is also some pretty solid crafted gear. 

For Shaman http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.3&filter=minrl=80;cr=86;crs=11;crv=0 (Look at the ilvl 200 stuff)

For Paladin: http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4&filter=ty=4;minrl=80;cr=86;crs=11;crv=0 (ilvl 200)

[apocrypha]

Awesome, thankyou folks 

I've been enjoying Icecrown (fantastic design, it's cool just flying around there) and haven't done many of the quest lines there so I'll start by farming those for a while :)

[Gobbeldygook]

-Unless you're an inscriber, blitz Storm Peaks until you unlock the quests for the Sons of Hodir.  Those dailies are how you get the Wrath shoulder enchants.

-Leave no stone unturned in Icecrown.  You need the rep from Knights of the Ebon Blade for your melee DPS head enchant.  The knights have a shitload of dailies, so make an effort to do those.

-Do the PVP region dailies in Grizzly Hills until you have the totems/librams you want.  I don't believe any of them require PVP.

-I know you say you hate PVP, but give Lake Wintergrasp a try.  The weekly quests give a lot of honor for the effort, allowing you to fill a couple of those hard-to-upgrade slots.

-There's a LOT more BOE blues than before and I'm not just talking about craftables.  Just poke around the AH, you're bound to find some good stuff.

[apocrypha]

Thanks Gobbledygook, advice all noted. I was definitely planning on having a play in WG, if for no other reason than to see what it's like.