Noblegarden

[Hindenburg]

I was playing this with my girlfriend the other night - admittedly, she's quite the feminist - and she got pretty worked up over the whole "put bunny ears on women" achievement. After thinking about it a bit, I thought she had a point. What's the perceived benefit in making that achievement gender-exclusive to women? Is it, "Hey, I don't think our female characters get enough grief, especially ones that pick non-traditional races!" I seriously don't know.

Anyway, I posted about it at length on a feminist blog she and I follow - http://community.feministing.com/2009/04/wow-thats-boring-lets-add-sexi.html#more

Don't necessarily believe this is the crowd that'll agree with me here, but I just don't see where there's a benefit to Blizzard in making it women-only. Especially since I and she *aren't* the only ones to take a little umbrage to it.

I read the blog.
Your girlfriend. She's batshit crazy.

[Rendakor]

After actually reading the blog, I can say definitively that this thread is going places.

I predict Politics; Den at a close 2nd.

[Merusk]

I found it odd it had to be females, but not that it was a commentary.  I was expeting more of the  "Human Death Knight" "Gnome Lock" stuff of the last few holidays.

[Ingmar]

The bunny ears thing is pretty stupid, yes, and definitely falls into the 'sexist' basket. Re: the rest of the blog entry, I'm going to have to say no to the Hodir quest names fitting there though. They're sexual references but not sexist ones.

[Sjofn]

I hate Bros before Ho Ho Hos more, but the bunny ears thing, especially the stupid-ass HAR HAR MAKE SURE THEY'RE LEVEL 18 LAWL, makes me sigh and roll my eyes too. Blizzard has gotten BETTER, I haven't been stuck with a plate thong this entire expansion (yay!), but they still have lapses of being sexist idiots.

But the thing that pisses me off most is the machine that turns you into a gnome in a santa outfit. Skank clothes on gnome females bugs me more than any other female race.  

[Fordel]

Do they excite you? 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Girls wearing bunny ears has been a pop culture staple since...how old is playboy now? My point being that while it may be considered sexist it's no more sexist than lengerie stores only catering to women and not feminine males. All they need to do is make some achievement for the summer festival involving shirtless males in spartan helmets to balance it out.

[Sutro]

Girls wearing bunny ears has been a pop culture staple since...how old is playboy now? My point being that while it may be considered sexist it's no more sexist than lengerie stores only catering to women and not feminine males. All they need to do is make some achievement for the summer festival involving shirtless males in spartan helmets to balance it out.

I say this knowing full well it may take it to the Den, but I think it needs to be said.

My issue with that line of logic is that's it's essentially the same argument as, "Well, there's a Miss Black USA, so there should be a Miss White USA!" and the "Well, black people call each other Ns, so we should be able to as well!" Females are a historical, and many would say continuing, oppressed class; using "balance" logic just doesn't cut it. The dominant class poking fun at itself, "Oh lookie, I have no clothes!", doesn't change the power dynamic.

Maybe in some far-off Beulah Land, when we don't see sexual exploitation in the porn industry, and we're sufficiently temporally removed from all the injustices that have been done to women over time, that'll be an OK thing to do. But we're not at a state, culturally, where we can use equivalency and still be appropriately sensitive to the historical context of those actions.

[Merusk]

Y'know, I didn't get the "must be 18" thing until you pointed it out.  I - and everyone I know - were just assuming it was to prevent people from making L1 alts and running them to cities like they've been doing for the last few seasonal achievements.   Shows how much I pay attention to sexual exploitation of videogame characters.

[Hindenburg]

The sad thing is that if the chap bothered to email the contents of that blog and attach to it a catchy title like, oh, I don't know, MYSOGINY IN WOW, odds are quite good most gaming sites would link to it.

Also, rule 16.

[Lantyssa]

Y'know, I didn't get the "must be 18" thing until you pointed it out.  I - and everyone I know - were just assuming it was to prevent people from making L1 alts and running them to cities like they've been doing for the last few seasonal achievements.   Shows how much I pay attention to sexual exploitation of videogame characters.

It was that coupled with the RP server tradition (which I hate) of converting levels into age.

It irked me a little for the reasons sutro mentioned, but then I was shaking my bunny-maker at everyone when I wasn't actively hunting for the achievement.  There was this one afk NE guy near my egg spot with white hair which just went so well with the ears...  It really should have been a race/class combo, anyone of the given race, or a guy and gal of each.

On the mechanics side my biggest complaint was the crappy drop rate coupled with incredibly expensive chocolate costs.  And concentrating everyone into a tiny area to do it?  Dumb idea.  Most of the achievements themselves I had fun with.  It just required about 250 eggs to do.  Ugh.

[Soulflame]

The most annoying part of the bunny ears for me was two-fold - five minute cooldown + your application of bunny ears doesn't overwrite the previous one.  I ended up blowing the cooldown twice because I didn't know about that particular mechanic, which frustrated me quite a bit, as the number of female orcs is rather small for some reason.

To solve it, I asked my daughter to log in her hunter.  Tada!

I also didn't catch the level 18 reference til it was pointed out above.  As has been said, I thought it was a level restriction to prevent people from creating level 1 chars to assist others in getting the achievement.

[Vash]

A level 18 restriction isn't gonna do a whole lot when you can just as easily make a female DK of the desired race and take them to a major city without much hassle/work.   

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not gonna try and keep this going for I feel I'd be fighting a losing battle in any case. I will say having to 'polish hodir's helm' everyday was more offensive to me than the bunny ears simply because it had much more sexual connotations to it.

Children's week is soon, anyone know if there are new northrend quests for it?

[Merusk]

A level 18 restriction isn't gonna do a whole lot when you can just as easily make a female DK of the desired race and take them to a major city without much hassle/work.   

It took less time to find an actual female of the minority race race than to do the 2-3 hours of DK quests. ;)  (We tried it with a dwarf and a Tauren, the two rarest on my server.)

[Soulflame]

I'm hoping they remove the pvp achievement from it, at the very least, unless of course it's opened up to "someone in your group/raid" performs one of the actions.  Trying to return a WSG flag is nearly impossible under the best circumstances, not to mention cap a flag in EotS, although I think the other two are at least doable.

[Vash]

A level 18 restriction isn't gonna do a whole lot when you can just as easily make a female DK of the desired race and take them to a major city without much hassle/work.   

It took less time to find an actual female of the minority race race than to do the 2-3 hours of DK quests. ;)  (We tried it with a dwarf and a Tauren, the two rarest on my server.)

I've only run through those quests twice, but the second time through I'm pretty sure it only took an hour or so to get to the part where you deliver the letter to SW/Org, could be even faster if the whole battle at Light's Hope event didn't take so long.

[kaid]

Yeah it really, really sucks. The eggs you lay as a rabbit don't count, nor do the ones you hide in your capitol.  So 3-4 hours of camping 1-3 egg spawns depending on how crowded the area you're at is, hoping to get the random bits you need so you don't have to spend 100 chocolates for the pet.  Woo.     The wife camped for about 120 chocolates, I stopped after I got 20 eggshells for my 13g.

Oh, and you HAVE to find the wand for bunny-ears in an egg. It doesn't get sold on the chocolate vendor.

I got all the rare items from eggs you do not have to buy anything for the title. You can buy everything needed with chocolate.

[Fordel]

It was that coupled with the RP server tradition (which I hate) of converting levels into age.

The whole levels = "Seasons" = Years old thing, yea I've always hated that too. Especially since that assumes all races use the same human time scale, which is obviously not true.

[Merusk]

A level 18 restriction isn't gonna do a whole lot when you can just as easily make a female DK of the desired race and take them to a major city without much hassle/work.   

It took less time to find an actual female of the minority race race than to do the 2-3 hours of DK quests. ;)  (We tried it with a dwarf and a Tauren, the two rarest on my server.)

I've only run through those quests twice, but the second time through I'm pretty sure it only took an hour or so to get to the part where you deliver the letter to SW/Org, could be even faster if the whole battle at Light's Hope event didn't take so long.

If you tore through it in an hour I'm very impressed.  The interrogation bit and the Dragonflight take me about a half an hour together, then you've got the battle and Patchwerk as well.  There's 46 quests in total, with the only optional one being the duel quest to get your pvp trinket. I haven't tried a speed run, but I know it took me about 2 1/2 hours to get through on my 3rd DK, knowing all the ins and outs.

[Paelos]

Y'know, I didn't get the "must be 18" thing until you pointed it out.  I - and everyone I know - were just assuming it was to prevent people from making L1 alts and running them to cities like they've been doing for the last few seasonal achievements.   Shows how much I pay attention to sexual exploitation of videogame characters.

Same. I also just looked at it through the eyes of "no rolling up stupid alts" to get things done.

The whole event is dumb, not just the bunny ears. I also don't think it's sexist, but for a game where gender doesn't put restrictions on stats, clothes, abilities, or anything else...

I'd say just get over it.

[Simond]

I'm not gonna try and keep this going for I feel I'd be fighting a losing battle in any case. I will say having to 'polish hodir's helm' everyday was more offensive to me than the bunny ears simply because it had much more sexual connotations to it.

What about raising his spear or blowing his horn?

[Xanthippe]

Girls wearing bunny ears has been a pop culture staple since...how old is playboy now? My point being that while it may be considered sexist it's no more sexist than lengerie stores only catering to women and not feminine males. All they need to do is make some achievement for the summer festival involving shirtless males in spartan helmets to balance it out.

I say this knowing full well it may take it to the Den, but I think it needs to be said.

My issue with that line of logic is that's it's essentially the same argument as, "Well, there's a Miss Black USA, so there should be a Miss White USA!" and the "Well, black people call each other Ns, so we should be able to as well!" Females are a historical, and many would say continuing, oppressed class; using "balance" logic just doesn't cut it. The dominant class poking fun at itself, "Oh lookie, I have no clothes!", doesn't change the power dynamic.

Maybe in some far-off Beulah Land, when we don't see sexual exploitation in the porn industry, and we're sufficiently temporally removed from all the injustices that have been done to women over time, that'll be an OK thing to do. But we're not at a state, culturally, where we can use equivalency and still be appropriately sensitive to the historical context of those actions.

Oh please, give me a break.  Females are not now, and have not been oppressed in the United States for a long time.  Women working in the porn industry are not forced to.  They are adult women making choices.  (Probably bad choices but there's no shortage of people making those).

Complaining about bunny ears on female characters in WoW - most of whom are played by men - is ridiculous.  As ridiculous as complaining about "gender issues" regarding the Hodir quests.

Sexual references != sexism

Can we please not equate popular culture references about Playboy with real oppression?  What is real oppression, you ask?  Women being buried up to their waists in the ground and then being stoned to death for speaking to a male she is not related to.  That is real oppression. 

How many posts are up on feministing.com about that?  I counted ZERO.




Q.  How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?









A.  That's not funny!

[Xanthippe]

I'm not gonna try and keep this going for I feel I'd be fighting a losing battle in any case. I will say having to 'polish hodir's helm' everyday was more offensive to me than the bunny ears simply because it had much more sexual connotations to it.

What about raising his spear or blowing his horn?

Just more marital dailies....

[Sjofn]

I don't generally read feministing, but I would be surprised if they never post about oppression outside the US, as there are plenty of feminist blogs that I do read that do indeed discuss the oppression of women in the world as you define it. However, that does not mean the US, where most of the feminists I read live, is some sort of fucking equality paradise.

"At least I'm not being stoned for being raped" does not make "I am paid less and more likely to be passed over for a promotion in this male-dominated industry I work in" more acceptable.

[Ingmar]

Yes, by all means, let's play the degree game. Getting punched in the nuts is no big deal, because in some places, they punch you in the nuts twice.

EDIT: Also its not like feminist outrage is some kind of limited resource that we have to scrimp and save to use on just the most important causes. This isn't a situation like, Mayor, the hotel is on fire and there is a cat in a tree, but we only have one firetruck? WHO DO WE SAVE?

[Merusk]

I was about to post about how eager i was to see someone call Xanthippe a male-appeasing anti-feminist. Lo and behold it happened before I could even reply. Roofles.

[Sjofn]

I was about to post about how eager i was to see someone call Xanthippe a male-appeasing anti-feminist. Lo and behold it happened before I could even reply. Roofles.

I missed anyone saying that.

[Xanthippe]

I don't generally read feministing, but I would be surprised if they never post about oppression outside the US, as there are plenty of feminist blogs that I do read that do indeed discuss the oppression of women in the world as you define it. However, that does not mean the US, where most of the feminists I read live, is some sort of fucking equality paradise.

"At least I'm not being stoned for being raped" does not make "I am paid less and more likely to be passed over for a promotion in this male-dominated industry I work in" more acceptable.

Really, women are paid less and more likely to be passed over for a promotion? 

I'd believe that if this was 20 years ago.  Today?  Sorry, no.

Women who stay at home after having children or otherwise take time off of a career are surely paid less and likely passed over for a promotion, but at a greater rate than a guy doing the same would be?  Highly doubtful.

If anything, women are now a protected class.  When are we going to do something about the terrible disparity in numbers of college graduates?  Women both attend and graduate college at a high rate than men.  Boys drop out of high school at a greater rate than do girls.  Girls have almost caught up to boys in math scores, yet boys lag far behind on language scores.

Women are not oppressed in the USA in 2009. 

Neither is putting bunny ears on a make belief pixel girl a tool of male oppression.

[K9]

Cracker what?! All hail masculinism.

[Sutro]

Hey Xanthippe, I disagree with what you said.

[Hindenburg]

Hey Xanthippe, I disagree with what you said.

That'd be because you'd do anything to keep your girlfriend, dear.

[Montague]

[Sjofn]

I don't generally read feministing, but I would be surprised if they never post about oppression outside the US, as there are plenty of feminist blogs that I do read that do indeed discuss the oppression of women in the world as you define it. However, that does not mean the US, where most of the feminists I read live, is some sort of fucking equality paradise.

"At least I'm not being stoned for being raped" does not make "I am paid less and more likely to be passed over for a promotion in this male-dominated industry I work in" more acceptable.

Really, women are paid less and more likely to be passed over for a promotion? 

I'd believe that if this was 20 years ago.  Today?  Sorry, no.

Women who stay at home after having children or otherwise take time off of a career are surely paid less and likely passed over for a promotion, but at a greater rate than a guy doing the same would be?  Highly doubtful.

If anything, women are now a protected class.  When are we going to do something about the terrible disparity in numbers of college graduates?  Women both attend and graduate college at a high rate than men.  Boys drop out of high school at a greater rate than do girls.  Girls have almost caught up to boys in math scores, yet boys lag far behind on language scores.

Women are not oppressed in the USA in 2009. 

Neither is putting bunny ears on a make belief pixel girl a tool of male oppression.

I really don't want to get into a big ol' feminist fight with you, because this is not the place to really get into it, but yes, here in the USA in 2009, women are still oppressed. Rape victims are still generally considered to be lying tramps asking for it. Women are still uniformly objectified and considered the sex class. They are not trusted to make their own goddamn medical decisions because it will hurt their poor lady brains. And yes, they absolutely still get fucked over in pay and promotions in male-dominated fields (hi, remember the Supreme Court ruling a few years ago that EXTRA fucked women over as far as even suing for equal pay went?), and female dominated fields are simply not valued as highly. And I'm sorry, my own experience in my male-dominated work place DEFINITELY contradicts this happy fairy tale of women being totally equal with men in the eyes of Americans.

I'm not saying we're not much better off than we were in the 1920's or something, but to insist women are a protected class with out a care in the world is sticking your head in the sand.

And Itto, shut the fuck up. It's entirely possible for a dude to, you know, consider sexism a bad thing that still exists, girlfriend or no.

[Rendakor]

I'm with Itto; every act is a selfish act. The only reason a guy would get all fired up in defense of feminism is to impress a girl.