PA & PVP versus old media comics

[WindupAtheist]

A little old, but fun. Editorialist cartoons realizing they're doomed, webcomic guys telling them to suck it.

Link.

Yeah, too bad you weren’t acutely aware of this when we first reached out to you guys five years ago. Back when you laughed at us and told us to be quiet while the adults were talking. Back when you told Jimmy Johnson that despite my credentials, his sponsoring me for the NCS was moot because of my character. So yeah. I’m telling you to go #%@!! yourself now. What did you honestly expect me to do?

yah, cuz like, everybody knows the only things that truly matter on this planet are video games

When 60,000 people come to Abell-con you can give me shit.

Fun stuff!

[schild]

Penny Arcade is the obscene, ridiculous outlier in this whole conversation. Their huge success is largely due to a thesaurus and being the family circus of web comics. Not an insult so much as saying "it can be consumed by everyone." But really, it's like the star quarterback of the varsity football team, they're dumb but everyone loves them. And now that QB is beating up the special ed class.

And really, Wiley made the only comment necessary:

I think that’s great what you and Scott Kurtz developed, Mike. You both got into it early and were ahead of the pack. The pack now, however is literally thousands of webcomics thrown out there on the internet, which, to many of us, makes it an impenetrable maze to wade through of horrifically bad stuff before finding anything of quality, such as Penny Arcade and PvP.

Edit: Also, I wasn't aware people still read PvP, news to me!

[Yegolev]

I don't know if PA is the Family Circus, but PvP is the Ziggy.  One day, I guess, we will gather around the holocron to watch the holiday favorite How Brent Sienna Stole Christmas.

[WindupAtheist]

PA may or may not be funny on any given day (whenever I see that Samurai Gabe with a cardboard tube shit I know it's gonna be a bad week) but on the whole their batting average is high enough to keep me coming back. That bit with the Guitar Hero: Nirvana box and the plastic shotgun peripheral the other day was awesome. I know nothing about PVP since the Not Funny of it slaps me in the face whenever I try going near it, but it's fun to watch the guy flame.

PA and their megabucks empire may be an outlier, but the guy who does Dreamland Chronicles turns up in there and says he makes a decent living at it, and who the hell reads fucking Dreamland Chronicles? The real bottom line of the discussion, in my mind, is that there has to be SOMEONE out there who will go out of their way to read your comic and most editorial cartoons are just space-filler.

[schild]

PA and their megabucks empire may be an outlier, but the guy who does Dreamland Chronicles turns up in there and says he makes a decent living at it, and who the hell reads fucking Dreamland Chronicles? The real bottom line of the discussion, in my mind, is that there has to be SOMEONE out there who will go out of their way to read your comic and most editorial cartoons are just space-filler.

My perception of what is needed to "make a living" in the last 6 months has changed fucking drastically. When I hear that now, I'm thinking $200 above rent+utilities. For a month. That's "a living."

[apocrypha]

Of course the major problem for newspaper cartoonists trying to find a new market is that most of them are shit. The newspapers haven't been pushing for quality in their cartoons for decades and syndication has meant that the cartoonists themselves have no need to try and produce anything of quality.

An obvious exception to this is Trudeau but then Doonesbury has been syndicated to multiple publications for years and has a strong web presence, so he's another outlier really. The Guardian (UK) also has Steve Bell, and his work is so good that it's often the only truthful thing in the newspaper, and certainly the only reason to ever actually buy it, but again, an outlier.

And it's kinda depressing to see all the bickering between web cartoonists and print cartoonists like that. These people are all just trying to do the same thing - make a living from drawing stuff - and they all have to compete with each other instead of working together and learning from each other.

[Soln]

that thread is fucking epic.

* that conference has Bezos speaking -- how'd they managed that?  He didn't even turn up when they broke ground this week to build the new Amzn HQ.
* PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies.  Don't believe me?  See PAX.
* Gabe hates editorial cartoonists.
* Yahtzee hates web cartoonists.
* cycle of life continues.

[FatuousTwat]

Can I hate both, or do I have to pick a side?

[schild]

You can hate both.

PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies.  Don't believe me?  See PAX.

PA was making more money YOY than dailies long before PAX. I'm not sure whether you're stating that to surprise people or inform though. Though, I'd guess, it would come as a shock to absolutely nobody here (wrong crowd maybe?).

[Kail]

Of course the major problem for newspaper cartoonists trying to find a new market is that most of them are shit. The newspapers haven't been pushing for quality in their cartoons for decades and syndication has meant that the cartoonists themselves have no need to try and produce anything of quality.

Yeah, this.  I'm not about to claim that webcomics are awesome and pure win, but when a professional of 30+ years in the comic industry is having trouble keeping up with a bunch of amateurs working out of their parents basements with MSPaint, then the comic industry has some serious damn problems.

75% of webcomics exist because someone looks at a comic (print or web) and says "that looks easy enough that I could do it."  And newspaper comics are a huge source for this (largely because they have to print daily).  The art is horrible.  The writing is just as bad.  People look at that and say "why the hell is Jim Davis getting paid for this when any idiot with a xerox machine could do it."  This is not a commercial endeavor which is on the way up.  If syndicates aren't paying for it, nobody will, unless they can find another media to fasten themselves to.

Really, though, I don't know of anyone who cares that much, aside from presumably the authors themselves.  They'll find some way to adapt or they won't.  Either way, I won't be mourning the loss of The Born Loser or whatever.

[Merusk]

The cartoonists are all whining and complaining that they're losing money because their media is a dead art, but they don't realize they suck.  The successful web cartoonists - whether they suck or not - pointed out years ago that the paper was dying and, hey, maybe you should start looking at some other model. Whoops, time has come and now those mediocre artists have their share and the other mediocre artists are floundering in misery. Tee. Hee.

PA and PVP are successful because they're established.  Yeah, it's hard to get found now amidst the thousands of mediocre bits, but if they'd jumped on earlier their mediocrity would have carried them in the new medium like it did the old.  Those critical of how 'midline' and 'mediocre' PVP and PA are seem to forget you are a different crowd from the masses. The lack of wanting to be challenged and simply entertained applies to all media for large audiences not just movies, games and books.  Pablum sells continually IF you can get a market.  In webcomics that means you had to be established years ago. 

Fuck, Jim Davis established Garfield on this very premise.  He was NEVER an artist, he was a Marketer who read something about the popularity of cats and said "Hey, what if I make a comic about a cat who hates mondays. People would eat that shit up and I could make a mint on the merchandising."  He's unabashedly admitted this, and proven himself right.

[Yegolev]

Can I hate both, or do I have to pick a side?

Side-picking is for pussies.  Dicks go right down the middle.

EDIT because this thread happily reminded me of the best webcomic ever: Garfield Minus Garfield.

[Hoax]

You can hate both.

PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies.  Don't believe me?  See PAX.

PA was making more money YOY than dailies long before PAX. I'm not sure whether you're stating that to surprise people or inform though. Though, I'd guess, it would come as a shock to absolutely nobody here (wrong crowd maybe?).

On a related note, does anyone here not think Schild hates PA because he would have done it better if he only knew someone who could draw and had gotten in on the ground floor?

PA is a fairly funny and a nice easy way to keep up to date on game happenings, teh hate is silly.

[Soln]

The only surprise about PA in that thread for me was they employ on 10 people.  Would've thought x2 or x3 times that with PAX, which is now going to the East coast, then EU, then Mars.

[Ironwood]

The thread was really interesting.  What's even more interesting is that, even as they state they understand, it becomes clear that the editorial chaps have NO IDEA how the web actually works and what you need to do in it in order to define a market.

That's what it's all about for these chaps :  Where their market is.  And therein lies the bad news.

[Yoru]

The only surprise about PA in that thread for me was they employ on 10 people.  Would've thought x2 or x3 times that with PAX, which is now going to the East coast, then EU, then Mars.

For conventions, you don't have a huge fulltime staff. Your fulltime staff is small and supplemented by a handful of hardcore, long-time volunteers. You then bring in a handful of temporary paid folks a bit before/during the con, and the bulk of your work is done by seasonal volunteers.

You'd be surprised what you can get geeks to do for free.

[UnSub]

I appreciated the "my royalty cheques haven't shrunk at all" vs. the "so I've been laid off by my syndicate just like many of you" posts.

[schild]

On a related note, does anyone here not think Schild hates PA because he would have done it better if he only knew someone who could draw and had gotten in on the ground floor?

I would have gotten bored way too fast. I don't hate PA so much as out of the thousands of comics they've done, I've only found 4 or 5 of them really funny. As such their success absolutely baffles me. Or rather, the fact they keep getting more popular when they peaked with a comic called "I Hope You Like Text."

[Fordel]

"They have the internet on computers now!"


That's all that comes to mind when I read one of the 'old print' guys posts in that thread.

[ahoythematey]

As such their success absolutely baffles me. Or rather, the fact they keep getting more popular when they peaked with a comic called "I Hope You Like Text."

Well...I still find the comics funny usually, and Jerry's editorializing is almost always worth a read, in my opinion.  There are a lot of people with the same opinion, hence the continued success.

Honestly, I find it amazing some people are quick to shit on the group of guys responsible for Child's Play, comic or no comic.

[Fordel]

People will shit on anything, it's practically a sport.

[Merusk]

People will shit on anything, it's practically a sport.

Doubly so on the internet.

I don't hate on PA, but I do realize they're not geniuses, just good marketers who got there first.  I'm impressed that they do good with their 'net fame instead of just being selfish pricks like many other web artists would be and have.

[schild]

Honestly, I find it amazing some people are quick to shit on the group of guys responsible for Child's Play, comic or no comic.

Yes, because everyone who sets up a charity is untouchable. How much has Bill Gates/Microsoft given to charity now? More than PA will ever see? Yea. Thought so. Don't say dumb things.

[Ironwood]

Actually, I avoid saying things of hate about Gates these days specifically FOR that reason.

Not sure where you're going with that one.

Business do it as tax breaks, of course, but individuals doing it and organizing stuff like that is amazing and should be treated so.

You are, I suspect, merely jealous.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[ahoythematey]

Actually, I practically applauded Bill and Melinda gates when I read about the amount of money they put into charities and the stuff they set up.  If I remember correctly, it was a cover-story for Newsweek from a few years back?

Good job on making a stupid assumption and jumping to conclusions, though.  It would've been more genuine to just leave it at, "I don't like PA and people that do like their comics baffle me."

[schild]

I find it hard to believe that either you have problems separating the charity from the person. Yes, it's absolutely awesome what they do with Child's Play, as is The Gates Foundation and such, but I don't quite understand why doing one thing negates the ability to rag on the other. Obviously I'm happy they're doing something more with their success than most others would do, but at the same time giving charity isn't some real life IDDQD cheat code against critical thought.

Business do it as tax breaks, of course, but individuals doing it and organizing stuff like that is amazing and should be treated so.

You are, I suspect, merely jealous.

I never insinuated either of them did it for tax breaks, though I'd imagine they both get a hefty one.

I'm jealous of lots of things, PA is not one of them.

[Ironwood]

Ok.

[ahoythematey]

Doom reference is win.

[MahrinSkel]

In essence, the web guys came into the scene and were dissed because they weren't in print and nobody was paying them except for banner-ad chump change.  They showed they could build an audience, and they still got pissed on by the print guys because that audience wasn't as big as that of syndicated print comics, they didn't make as much money, and the print guys saw them as interlopers trying to horn in on their action (as the only way they could imagine the web guys making good money would be bootstrapping off their internet popularity to get a syndication deal, which would push one of them off the pages).  All the while the web guys were telling the print guys their medium was doomed, that they were stuffy and uninspired pablum, and that there were other ways to do comics than the four-panel daily strip and the Sunday color double banner, other ways to monetize than syndication and book compilation deals.  And the print guys blew them a raspberry and told them to be good little boys and let the grownups talk amongst themselves about how the youth today are getting stupider because of the internet.

So now the web guys are enjoying some righteous "I told you so, now fuck off."  They owe the print guys *nothing*, and are pissed off that most of them are *still* acting high and mighty even as the earth opens up beneath their feet because newspapers are going away.

--Dave

[Ironwood]

Yes.


And now no-one needs to read the thread.

[schild]

the youth today are getting stupider because of the internet.

To be fair, they're right.

But it's not limited to the youth, unfortunately.

[Merusk]

u r 2 srs. Rly.

Web comix, srs bzns.

[Fabricated]

Just posting to say that PvP sucks.

[Soln]

PvP is pretty meh.  But sometimes so is PA.  As an experiment, pick up any PA comic -- can you understand it directly?  Very often PA panels are just like editorial cartoons, it's just that you have to be aware of the latest issue in gamer culture or the latest title.  They don't often stand on their own without the walls of creative vocabulary from Tycho.  But FWIW I do like Gabe's artwork and think a lot of his work is superior to the majority of web strips out there.  Mike is definitely the talent there.

[lamaros]

Salary workers discover the issues of running your own business. Recoil in horror.

News at 11.