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Stormwaltz
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on: April 09, 2009, 09:56:25 PM

Hypothetical situation. You have a game where there are a mere three classes. For the purposes of example, say they're archer, swordsman, and "magic missile" type wizard. Assume that they each play in different ways, and appeal to different styles of gamer, but are all capable of killing, and it's fun to kill things with them (also, assume I have a bridge to sell you).

Then you add something like CoX's power pools. Every X levels, you can unlock a new set of support skills. This allow you to customize your basically fun fighting character into the ideal role you like to play.

Example: Swordsman progresses through the first four levels in a tutorial, gaining (or improving) a basic swordsman maneuver/power at each level. At level five, he can unlock a "skill pool." Though tempted to choose Crafting, he decides to take Enemy Debuffs instead. Now at each level he can gain (or improve) a Swordsman skill or an Enemy Debuff skill.

This is my latest attempt to find a a middle ground between a class-based system (everyone's the same, but it's easy to balance) and a skill-based system (maximum player choice, but easy to break wide open)

My question is, what do you see as the viable roles for skill pools? This far I have:

Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)
Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting
Pets

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
schild
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Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 10:29:22 PM


Why limit yourself?
Trippy
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Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 10:52:54 PM

Is this your standard EQ/WoW-style game mechanics or something different?
Kail
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Reply #3 on: April 09, 2009, 11:09:50 PM

My question is, what do you see as the viable roles for skill pools?

Kind of depends on the game and objectives, doesn't it?  If you're designing a game based around a certain mechanic (e.g. player cities or keep sieges or what have you) then you'd have certain mechanics (related to managing cities or siege weapons) which otherwise wouldn't apply.

Off the top of my head, general stuff which might apply:

-powers centred around group mechanics, targeting, etc. (like a commander class or something)
-gathering resources/loot
-mounted combat
-powers dealing with travel (however that's handled, maybe teleportation or seamanship or something)
-dealing with NPCs (merchants or hireling mercenaries or whatever)

edit: added one
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:13:29 PM by Kail »
Wasted
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Reply #4 on: April 09, 2009, 11:24:19 PM

I would add Harvesting to link with crafting. Also some type of vehicle/riding skill (mount based combat?), and maybe some type of Diplomacy thing.  Self buffs as separate from friendly buffs as well, for things like shape shifting?
Salamok
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Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 06:35:07 AM

Not fully fleshed out in the mmo sense (no crafting) but I always liked the Diablo 1 version of this.  You pick 1 of 3 classes then by tinkering with your stats through gear you can pretty much have an unlimited variation on what gear you wear.  The sorcerer in full plate was DRILLING AND MANLINESS
Slyfeind
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Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 08:07:23 AM

I agree on separating Crafting and Harvesting. Making stuff and finding stuff have huge potential on their own. Also, I don't think enough is done with music/art in RPGs these days. I wonder if something can be done with social networking, but every power I think of is pretty much necessary for everyone to have; creating chat channels, chains of communication, organization, etc. You shouldn't have to level someone up in order to access a raid calendar or whisper more than one zone away.

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
tazelbain
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Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 08:59:58 AM

Not sure but suspect you just forced people to use alts for crafting so they can stack combat abilities on their main.

Personally I'd just move no combat skill sets to their own class with trader, crafter, resource gathering, builder, etc pool sets.

Also I really like the idea of epic pool set maybe after you unlock blacksmith, master swordsmith you could unlock epic pool set to smithing "dragon breathe" weapons.  So there is more room at top end for master crafters.

Wouldn't Archer be a pool set as well?

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ezrast
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Reply #8 on: April 10, 2009, 10:02:36 AM

Why limit yourself?
Because not every game idea has to be revolutionary and innovative? Incremental improvements to established ideas are just as vital as breaking new ground.

Assuming you're doing X skill points per level, I believe it unwise to make tradeskills part of the same system as combat skills, unless you make flower picking a viable in-combat alternative to casting fireballs somehow.

Crowd control.
Aez
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Reply #9 on: April 10, 2009, 10:03:30 AM


Roles that will be able to find a group :
Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)
Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting

Pets

Roles that will need to be supported by a large guild :
Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)

Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting
Pets

30% of your player base :
Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)

Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting
Pets



Out of your proposed Roles, I think that group mobility is the most damaging one.  It could become an absolute necessity in pvp and force people into waiting/begging for a well speced mobility guy. I'd recommend having a third mobility choice for every characters like CoX.
Slyfeind
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Reply #10 on: April 10, 2009, 12:05:00 PM

Out of your proposed Roles, I think that group mobility is the most damaging one.  It could become an absolute necessity in pvp and force people into waiting/begging for a well speced mobility guy. I'd recommend having a third mobility choice for every characters like CoX.

Either that, or give each spec a mobility power. Maybe specs that have little else to contribute to a group could have more useful mobility powers as a balance.

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
Grimwell
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Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 04:48:16 PM

This is my latest attempt to find a a middle ground between a class-based system (everyone's the same, but it's easy to balance) and a skill-based system (maximum player choice, but easy to break wide open)
This sounds a lot like AC. Three focus points that were essentially the classes (archer, melee, magic). Skill points as you level that allow you to customize or hybrid.

I was a fan for years, still love the idea. Can't frown upon it, and would love to see it iterated with improvements and new learnings.

Grimwell
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Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 09:10:04 PM

30% of your player base :
Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)

Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting
Pets
PVP Players?   Ranged Stealthers.

It's an interesting system, but I'm not sure you're really gaining anything by having classes at all.  In the end, you can balance the three classes against each other at the base level, but the more secondary skills you add the harder it gets.  So in addition to the benefits of both systems, you also get the drawbacks.

Plus, you'll always have those players who're like, "CLASSES?!?!?!?!  WHY??!?!?!?!"
Them:

Stormwaltz
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Reply #13 on: April 10, 2009, 10:53:12 PM

Why limit yourself?

Several reasons. One, despite knowing that I'll never get a chance to design my own MMG, I'm a casualty of hope. Two, while I admire and like to design games like EVE, I tend to enjoy the moment to moment play of games like LotRO. Three, having worked on a skill-based MMG, I know how tricky they are to get right (how many dungeons did I have to take wall torches out of to keep high Jump skill players from cutting directly to the end boss room?).

Most importantly, I'd rather spend my innovation points on subjects more dear to me than a skill-based character system - fun, intuitive, skill-based combat from level one, and the elder game. He who tries to innovate everything gets his ass canceled.

Either that, or give each spec a mobility power. Maybe specs that have little else to contribute to a group could have more useful mobility powers as a balance.

I probably should have explained the model, the LotRO Hunter, a bit better. In LotRO, everyone can purchase a non-combat horse, rent a horse for rapid (often instant) movement between cities, and recall to several locations (personal house, guild house, racial capital city, and a single milestone anywhere in the world). Hunters get an AoE group buff to dismounted non-combat speed and a battery of teleports (the Wayfaring skill set).

It's an interesting system, but I'm not sure you're really gaining anything by having classes at all.

The classes are less classes in the traditional sense and more like... mm, let's say control schemes. Purely as an example (this isn't quite what I have in mind), an archer might be designed to appeal to those who love playing Battlefield 1942 (first-person point and shoot), while a mage might be designed for those who love playing Dawn of War II (stand back and choose when/where/what powers to use based on the group's overall tactical situation).

Crowd-control and healing - do people see these as pools that should be broken out of Enemy Debuff (where I have CC now) and Friendly Buff (Heal)?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:58:35 PM by Stormwaltz »

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
ezrast
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Reply #14 on: April 10, 2009, 11:37:53 PM

Crowd-control and healing - do people see these as pools that should be broken out of Enemy Debuff (where I have CC now) and Friendly Buff (Heal)?
I don't see a strong fundamental argument either way. I suspect that sort of thing would just boil down to the question of how prevalent you want healing and CC to be, and balance issues. If it were my game, I'd say merge healing and buffs to try to make a set of skills that need to be used intelligently rather than just playing hit-point whack-a-mole. Then have CC and debuffs be their own separate things, to try to proliferate offensive combat roles that aren't just nuke nuke nuke.
snowwy
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Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 11:37:06 AM

CC is damn hard to get right. See Warhammer on how to NOT do it. The amounts of CC there is staggering. And, depending on if your game ihave PvP or not, if you have CC,you have to have counters to that. Or else you'll end up with chars spending all their pool-points there and being untouchables. Groups in Warhammer built around a Magus with the Rift-talent which sucks in x numbers of players paired with a couple of knockdown-able classes is absolutely devastating....as in, there's just no way in hell to escape. This is also thanks to the collision-detection they use in that game, where friendlies block eachother somewhat.....and that sucks hard when you have 6 people stacked on top of you  ACK!
Stormwaltz
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Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 11:53:26 AM

And, depending on if your game ihave PvP or not, if you have CC,you have to have counters to that. Or else you'll end up with chars spending all their pool-points there and being untouchables.

Yes, there's PvP. Also collision detection, but the battlegrounds will tend to be open and fluid, not narrow corridors. It's mostly for projectiles.

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
pxib
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Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 12:24:43 PM

Both healing and CC are artifacts of the PvE game (grandfathered from computer RPGs and action games respectively) designed to simplify gameplay and allow the chain-killing of vast numbers of virtually brainless opponents. Neither serves PvP well.

Healing creates a situation where health bars must be visible while simultaneously making them useless to the enemy as a gauge of how much damage must be dealt to kill. If PvP healing is effective, it slows combat down with tedious frustration instead of tactical options. If it's ineffective, why heal? The line between those is paper thin, not some vast zone of fun. Fun PvP, from Street Fighter to badminton, is about exploiting holes in an opponent's defense, not about killing the partner who's making him immortal. WAR had the right idea when they claimed they'd be getting rid of it. They changed their minds because they were unwilling or unable to come up with an alternate way to lengthen combat with tactical depth.

CC creates a situation where players lose control of their characters. This is universally bad. It doesn't matter if it's a stun or a mez or a root or a snare... it makes some player temporarily useless. Often he'd rather be dead, because at least that way he could be running back to kill you at full health and mana. PvP buffs and debuffs should be a choice... for the enemy. Damage-returning shields are fairly common, but this idea was much more heavily explored in Guild Wars. If you cast a spell at this character for the next eight seconds, you will take enormous amounts of damage. While afflicted by this curse, every time you attack in melee, you will do an AOE interrupt effect to nearby allies. If you hit this character while she is casting a spell, you will have your damage halved for six seconds. Take damage every time you stand still for more than two seconds. Fall down every time you run for more than five seconds without pausing.

Still, unless any of this is fun (to be afflicted BY, not just to afflict WITH), it should be discarded from the design.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
Stormwaltz
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Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 12:51:53 PM

Neither serves PvP well.

To be clear, it's not entirely PvP.

There are two general areas. There are PvE areas, and PvP areas. In the PvE areas, PvP is possible in the form of consensual one-on-one or group Duels (Honor Duels solely for reputation, and Blood Duels for full-fledged PvP with looting), and NPC Faction warfare.

Areas may be Contested. If you join a Faction, you can help by crafting and giving them war materials, carrying the war materials to friendly bases in the Contested area (the AI will use it to spawn and equip NPC guards), or killing the opposing Faction's NPCs and player allies. If one side gains control over all the strategic points in a Contested area, it become Secure. The areas near it controlled by the loser then become Contested.

There's no looting in Faction warfare, and death penalties are lighter (you're considered to be "compensated" by your sponsoring Faction), so it's "lite" PvP by most standards. Those who don't join a Faction are completely unaffected by the system - they can go about their business and watch the pyrotechnics.

The PvP+ areas are pretty much like EVE's 0.0 space. You can seize control of areas and build your own towns with NPC defenders, but you can be attacked anywhere outside those towns, your corpse can be looted, and your town may be placed under siege and burned.

Ideally, I'd like a situation where people who prefer either PvE or PvP can play the game to max level in their style alone and have fun. I think this is possible because the two groups have very different design needs. PvP players need good systems from the get-go, then they will make their own fun. PvE players need a steady diet of content. You need both a balance team and a story team.

And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 12:59:50 PM by Stormwaltz »

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
pxib
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Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 01:08:55 PM

If you want to do plan a niche game, please plan a niche game. Do not shoehorn it into a game for the masses and hope it still attracts a community there. PvE and PvP come with vastly different expectations, and require vastly different design. They have been awkwardly jammed together for too long.

EVE is not a good example of "it can work". It's a good example of "some people have had their fill of high fantasy".

if at last you do succeed, never try again
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Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 01:17:43 PM

If you want to do plan a niche game, please plan a niche game. Do not shoehorn it into a game for the masses and hope it still attracts a community there. PvE and PvP come with vastly different expectations, and require vastly different design. They have been awkwardly jammed together for too long.

EVE is not a good example of "it can work". It's a good example of "some people have had their fill of high fantasy".
Even in a PvP game, not everyone is going to want to PvP all the time. Darkfall shows that even in a hardcore PvP title, at least a baseline level of PvE implentation is required to fill the gaps. You don't have to water one down to counter the other but I believe you do need to have them both and they both do need to be rounded and complete - even if your focus is primarily on only one of those spheres.

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pxib
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Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 01:55:42 PM

You don't have to water one down to counter the other but I believe you do need to have them both and they both do need to be rounded and complete - even if your focus is primarily on only one of those spheres.
It's not about watering down, it's about completely accepting the consequences of a particular style of play. The best example I can think of is LotRO's monster play. Monsters are weaker than players in every way. They are limited to a specific set of areas, have very few abilities, and not much customization just like regular mobs. LotRO is a PvE game, so monster play is PvE where players happen to be playing the E. I have yet to see anyone attempt a largely PvP game where mobs have as many abilities and strategies as players... nor am I really sure that it's either a good idea or even possible.

What I see instead is games in which character classes designed to kill huge numbers of underpowered enemies with minimal risk suddenly find fights aren't particularly well balanced (or entertaining) when they're set against eachother.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 01:58:07 PM by pxib »

if at last you do succeed, never try again
snowwy
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Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 06:07:27 PM

"consensual one-on-one or group Duels (Honor Duels solely for reputation, and Blood Duels for full-fledged PvP with looting"
 
Oh hai exploitable system, i get your idea but no way in a thousand burning hells is that gonna work with the sneaky bastards rampaging through teh interwebs :p
Stormwaltz
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Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 06:16:24 PM

Oh hai exploitable system

Could you be more specific?

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
rk47
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Reply #24 on: April 12, 2009, 03:48:28 AM

Exploit: friends creating dummy accounts to give away free wins?

One on one duels:
This isn't a bad idea, consensual duels with wagers would definitely be great feature where people can wager gold/reputation in their spare time.  (System will auto deduct etc)


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Stormwaltz
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Reply #25 on: April 12, 2009, 04:09:32 PM

Exploit: friends creating dummy accounts to give away free wins?

Probably irrelevant the way I do it. In the first place, honor is solely for bragging. You get on a leader board, and the top 10 get unique titles and other cosmetic bits that make them appear unique in the game and on any official forums that might exist. EDIT: You can parlay that into concrete benefits (demanding tribute, guild recruitment), but that's social-driven gameplay. Second, honor duels don't generate honor, they transfer it -- X% of the loser's honor goes to the winner. There's little point to a high-honor player dueling and defeating a low-honor player, but a low-honor player who defeats a high honor player can gain a great deal.

Honor is generated through kills made and cities maintained* within PvP+ lands, by actions that aid any Faction you belong to, by completing instances, killing powerful NPCs, and crafting exceptional items.



* Maintained as in, they provide your guild and each member with honor as long as they remain standing. The bigger/more elaborate structures in the city, the greater the honor generated.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 04:12:17 PM by Stormwaltz »

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
schild
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Reply #26 on: April 12, 2009, 04:10:53 PM

Quote
. In the first place, honor is solely for bragging. You get on a leader board, and the top 10

Quote
get unique titles and other cosmetic bits that make them appear unique

Once you give them something unique, it goes beyond bragging.
Famine
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Reply #27 on: April 12, 2009, 05:44:29 PM


My question is, what do you see as the viable roles for skill pools? This far I have:

Enemy Debuffs
Friendly Buffs (should this include heals?)
Group Mobility (think LotRO Hunter)
Scout (stealth and anti-stealth)
Crafting
Pets

Keeps itching at me so I have to respond. It's all your fault.

I think the best way to really go about the ability roles or trees (whatever) is to classify your abilities from stock. You should consider starting from like the most logical classification structure that you could possible come up with that is not really creative or user friendly. Like for example, spells and even skills can just be broken up into these types:

  • Damage - Direct Damage, Damage Over Time, Area of Effect, Point Blank Area of Effect, Cone, and Self Infliction
  • Buff - Self, Target, or Group
  • Debuff - Target, Area of Effect, Point Blank Area of Effect, or Cone
  • Utility - Summoning, Curative, Empowering, and so on

This will at least give you a good idea of what type of abilities you will have to work with and then you can really start spicing things up a bit:

  • Infliction - Unlocks and enhances all your spell damage type spells based on class.
  • Enhancement  - Unlocks and enhances all your buff type spells based on class.
  • Survival - Unlocks your Curative and Summoning type spells if you have em.

Course, you can see yourself falling into more or less skill trees or ability lines for your skill pools when you go that route.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 05:49:47 PM by Famine »

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DLRiley
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Reply #28 on: April 12, 2009, 06:51:11 PM

If you want to do plan a niche game, please plan a niche game. Do not shoehorn it into a game for the masses and hope it still attracts a community there. PvE and PvP come with vastly different expectations, and require vastly different design. They have been awkwardly jammed together for too long.

EVE is not a good example of "it can work". It's a good example of "some people have had their fill of high fantasy".
Even in a PvP game, not everyone is going to want to PvP all the time. Darkfall shows that even in a hardcore PvP title, at least a baseline level of PvE implentation is required to fill the gaps. You don't have to water one down to counter the other but I believe you do need to have them both and they both do need to be rounded and complete - even if your focus is primarily on only one of those spheres.

Pve content is needed because players are given a big world to kick each other nuts in and it gets kinda hard to find someones nuts to kick. You need something to justify having all that space, or any space for that matter because it is literally preventing you from doing anything, like playing the game for example. So you do need monsters to kill if you insist that pvp happens over a persistent world. And by all means it(pve) should be as good as possible, because you really don't want a pvp'er logging off do to boredom.

Who cares if someone exploits the dueling system for xp. It is irrelevant, your game either has something better to do than just level up or it doesn't.
Stormwaltz
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Reply #29 on: April 14, 2009, 12:58:46 PM

Pve content is needed because players are given a big world to kick each other nuts in and it gets kinda hard to find someones nuts to kick.

One of the crazy ideas I'd like to try is a semi-shared architecture. Each Server / World is a PvE "neighborhood" with a designed population of 500-1000, associated with a particular spread of time zones* (NA-East Coast, NA-West Coast, Oceania, etc.). However, all servers/worlds connect to the same shared "frontier" PvP server/world.

This would theoretically foster the limited Monkeysphere that makes a good PvE community while allowing the critical mass of players necessary for competitive PvP. Yes, I want to appeal to both. I'm nutty that way.



* EDIT: You're not required to choose your own time zone, this is just so players have a basis to organize themselves. If you play in the morning, choose a time zone east of you to see more people on. If you play late a night, choose one to the west.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 01:08:31 PM by Stormwaltz »

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
AutomaticZen
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Reply #30 on: April 14, 2009, 01:03:59 PM

Pve content is needed because players are given a big world to kick each other nuts in and it gets kinda hard to find someones nuts to kick.

One of the crazy ideas I'd like to try is a semi-shared architecture. Each Server / World is a PvE "neighborhood" with a designed population of 500-1000, associated with a particular spread of time zones (NA-East Coast, NA-West Coast, Oceania, etc.). However, all servers/worlds connect to the same shared "frontier" PvP server/world.

This would theoretically foster the limited Monkeysphere that makes a good PvE community while allowing the critical mass of players necessary for competitive PvP. Yes, I want to appeal to both. I'm nutty that way.
You want to recreate East Coast/West Coast gang warfare in an MMO?
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