Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Morfiend]

And I agree with Falconeer, people should play it or STFU... I am looking at you DLRiley.

I played. Then I canceled. I was not having any fun. In fact while playing I was actively thinking about other stuff I could be doing that was more fun. I really wanted to get to the end game for PVP, but I refuse to play a MMO where the fastest method of advancing is to sit in a corner of the world and just spawn camp grind.

[Venkman]

And I agree with Falconeer, people should play it or STFU... I am looking at you DLRiley.

Sure as hell would be quiet around here if everyone did that. You are missing the point of the pile-ons we do on these games. We rant because we care. We like that developers keep trying things. We appreciate that there's common frames of reference based on the successful games that have come before. And we're all pretty willing to jump in the next big(ish) launch that comes along to see if this time they get it right.

Aion certainly got a lot right, much more so than WAR, and launch-month AoC, and Ryzom and Ryl and about two dozen podunk launches. But it doesn't deliver the sustainability because the advancement arc is so wiggly right now. They need to smooth that out or get crushed by the next WoW expansion, or people just returning to other more polished (or more familiar) homes.

That people power through it, great! There's always someone around here who gets really into a game and stays there when others leave. But we're all MMO enthusiasts suffering from unrequited love, the kind we want from our first (or favorite) MMO but which we can no longer have because it's either old as dust, when schizo, or got too much plastic surgery.

That's not an excuse. It's just the reason we ain't gonna be all stfu'ing about it

[gryeyes]

6-7 days?  You were what the third person to hit max level in V-WOW?  6-7 days in V-WOW when the game launched isnt a "normal" leveling curve and in fact Im pretty sure the first person to hit 60 took over 5 days...so yeah.

What part of /played do you not understand?

Since we're exchanging personal stories... after a week of WoW trial my character was l.20 (this was recently, but played without any fancy xp bonus etc) My character in Aion hit l.20 in this time, too. Both spent comparable time dicking around with tradeskills and such.

We know how exp scales in both games, it takes the most dedicated grinder imaginable 24hrs to hit 50 from 49, it will take a normal player maybe twice that amount /played. While WoW's time between levels remains fairly consistent all the way up. Even attempting to argue Aion will take the same /played is moronic, it doesn't. 95% of the time to hit 25 is from 20-25, at 49 you are accumulating 160 million exp on mobs that give 30-40k per. It will take me 10-12hrs of non-stop grinding to hit 36 with a class known for ease of grinding (take a slower grinding class substantially longer). The exp tables are public, how much exp mobs gives is easily found, how few people are at the cap is obvious. Not sure what random factor people are assuming exists that offsets the obvious.

That people respond to DLdurf is part of the problem.

[Nebu]

Aion certainly got a lot right, much more so than WAR

I've played both titles and I disagree with this.  WAR was fun out of the box.  WAR gave me new gaming experiences (PQ's for example), which is saying something after having played every major western MMO prior to WAR.  WAR allowed me to participate in pvp from level 1 that advanced my character in several ways (RL's, XP, Gear) and even adjusted my level to be more competitive out of the gate.  WAR from level 1-21 never felt like a soul crushing grind the likes I had experienced for the previous 10 years of MMO gaming.

WAR screwed up a TON of things... at least it attempted to be more than Lineage flavored WoW + pvp + wings. 

[Ixxit]

Aion certainly got a lot right, much more so than WAR

I've played both titles and I disagree with this.  WAR was fun out of the box.  WAR gave me new gaming experiences (PQ's for example), which is saying something after having played every major western MMO prior to WAR.  WAR allowed me to participate in pvp from level 1 that advanced my character in several ways (RL's, XP, Gear) and even adjusted my level to be more competitive out of the gate.  WAR from level 1-21 never felt like a soul crushing grind the likes I had experienced for the previous 10 years of MMO gaming.

WAR screwed up a TON of things... at least it attempted to be more than Lineage flavored WoW + pvp + wings.  

This.  Public quests  and low level pvp were amazing.  For someone like myself with not a lot of time for extended gaming sessions WAR allowed me to experience group and cooperative play without the investment of joining a guild or trying to find a pug.  

When I think back on my 3 weeks of playing Lineage 2 Aion all that comes to mind is    KAH-HEAR-GHIN   which in essence, is my one word review.

[Falconeer]

And I agree with Falconeer, people should play it or STFU... I am looking at you DLRiley.

Sure as hell would be quiet around here if everyone did that.

Just to clarify, my comment was only meant to imply that if you say Aion won't be remembered as a RvR game (good or bad is beyond the point) then your posts are solely based on some delirious wrong assumptions going on in your mind reinforced by the fact that you never cared to play it. Trolling follow the same logic usually.
Because there's a big bold solid line between commenting within reason and playing a trumpet with your butt, and the butt thing is going to make you more popular, that's for sure.

[Modern Angel]

Remember when people would say "I don't like WoW" or whatever game and the mouthbreather response was "then you need to get to the endgame to see it, n00b!" and we would all point and laugh? Saying "STFU GRIND TO PVP" is the last resort response. Twenty minutes. Your game has twenty minutes to get me.

[Falconeer]

All I'm saying is it is still a RvR game even if you, as a non-player, are under the impression it is not. Or if you, as a player, didn't get to that point.

I didn't say "STFU THIS GAME IS GOOD YOU DIDN'T EVEN PLAY", I said "STFU, IT *IS* RVR. OTHER THAN A KNOWN FACT, IT'S AN APPARENT THING AS SOON AS YOU PLAY THE GAME".
The quibble is only about the silly statement: "Aion will not be remembered for being a rvr game.", not about the game being any good.

And as for Darniaq's post:

DAoC's success as an RvR game happened years after launch. And it had the benefit of being unique at the time. DAoC launched after AO is very different Aion launching after WoW. Too much saturation for anyone to have patience to become so hard core about a single game that it becomes known genre-wide for that one thing.
Aion will be forgotten as AoC and WAR are on the path of being. The noise is too loud, the general market too flighty, and other games are getting smart about bringing in features that retain players they can monetize after launch.

It's not about being THAT succesful, we all know WoW changed everything. But there aren't enough RvR games so they can be easily forgotten. You can count them on a single hand, and they will be remembered exactly for that. Not to mention that Aion, as a RvR game, has plenty of qualities.

[DLRiley]

What is this 2004 again?

Remember when people would say "I don't like WoW" or whatever game and the mouthbreather response was "then you need to get to the endgame to see it, n00b!" and we would all point and laugh? Saying "STFU GRIND TO PVP" is the last resort response. Twenty minutes. Your game has twenty minutes to get me.

The bold is why Aion will not be remembered as an rvr game. It is not because it doesn't have rvr, it is because it "starts" at level 25 and your competitive sometime later. Unless it is possible to reach level 25 in 20 minutes than my position stands. How many people remember lineage 2 as a pvp game?

[Falconeer]

How many people remember lineage 2 as a pvp game?

Good point. Everyone.

[DLRiley]

How many people remember lineage 2 as a pvp game?

Good point. Everyone.

[amiable]

Good point. Everyone.

And here is where you become as crazy as DLRiley...  Lineage 2 is generally remembered for its soul-crushing grindiness, NOT its PvP awesomeness.

Listen most of us are not hating on Aion because it is an "RvR" game.  Most of us WANT to play an RvR game.  We are hating on Aion because they do it poorly.

FFS, I could open world PvP in WoW (on my first PvP server) at level 10, and the PvE grind in Wow is about 10,000 times more entertaining and engaging than this "kill 700 hundred elite flamingoes" bullshit.  Even the low level instances in WoW were well done (the one with the underground ship I remember being particularily entertaining).

If you are selling a game based on RvR, then let me RvR from an early level, and if you are going to put in a cockblock I must overcome before I am "rewarded" with the ability to RvR, then you better make damn sure that cockblock is entertaining.  Aion fails on all those account and as such most players memory of this game will be:  "I heard there was good PvP, but I gave up at level 20 because it was a grindy POS."

[Draegan]

I always put Lineage in the PVP category.   Grindy as fuck PVP game, but PVP nonetheless.

[tmp]

and the PvE grind in Wow is about 10,000 times more entertaining and engaging than this "kill 700 hundred elite flamingoes" bullshit.

Honestly, no. Of course it's all about personal preferences and I suppose it can be also true if the game happens to be someone's first MMO ever, but i think it's excessive glorification WoW simply doesn't deserve. It's the same routine foozle smacking as you level from Grey Rats through Large Rats to Grey Large Rats.

[Draegan]

WOTLK was pretty damn good as far as leveling content.  Good pacing, interesting quests.  Not a lot of useless bullshit.

Aion's leveling process was entertaining for most of 1-20.  Then it turned to shit.

[amiable]

and the PvE grind in Wow is about 10,000 times more entertaining and engaging than this "kill 700 hundred elite flamingoes" bullshit.

Honestly, no. Of course it's all about personal preferences and I suppose it can be also true if the game happens to be someone's first MMO ever, but i think it's excessive glorification WoW simply doesn't deserve. It's the same routine foozle smacking as you level from Grey Rats through Large Rats to Grey Large Rats.

/shrug I rememebr there were multiple pre level 20 instances in WoW, as well as a bunch of different zones with different play experiences for every race and multiple storylines for folks who wanted a different flavour.  The world also seemed much larger with many different zones to level in.

[DLRiley]

I always put Lineage in the PVP category.   Grindy as fuck PVP game, but PVP nonetheless.

You better man than me to have actually gotten to the point of pvp.

[Draegan]

I never played Lineage.

[DLRiley]

Than you was missing out!

[Lantyssa]

Lineage 2 had PvP?

Sorry Falc, you're wrong on this one.  When more people quit before reaching the PvP than are left playing it, the game will not be remembered as a PvP game.  Perceptions are set by the majority, even if they are wrong.

Look how long it took people to stop thinking of UO as a ganker's paradise.

[Ingmar]

Lineage 2 had PvP?

Sorry Falc, you're wrong on this one.  When more people quit before reaching the PvP than are left playing it, the game will not be remembered as a PvP game.  Perceptions are set by the majority, even if they are wrong.

Look how long it took people to stop thinking of UO as a ganker's paradise.

We stopped?

[tmp]

/shrug I rememebr there were multiple pre level 20 instances in WoW, as well as a bunch of different zones with different play experiences for every race and multiple storylines for folks who wanted a different flavour.  The world also seemed much larger with many different zones to level in.

I got into Deadmines with human character around l.20, but that experience was quite soured for me as by that point i had it up to here with the mazes of twisty passages all alike the game had me travel through repeatedly, to kill small rats first then rat officers and finally the boss rat i already killed twice during the previous trips. At that point the "official dungeon" felt just like more of the same, down to the foozles identical with what i've been smacking for last 20 levels. Yes it has a twist in the final part but it was too little, too late.

I then made a Horde undead guy, but it didn't take many levels to experience deja vu which was just too strong. The flavour text might've been different and trying hard to twirl its villain moustache, but underneath it i was just bashing more of the same rats and hoping to get a tail drop. Called it quits at l.10 or so. Supposedly there's an instanced dungeon on the Horde side and then another in the Barrens but welp.

Four years later or so i picked the game again and made elf druid this time. The game helpfully offered me to quest through violet forest, then grey forest and then a green forest, supplying me with kill quests, kill quests and for a change, some kill quests. A few of them involved visiting these twisty caverns i remembered so fondly. Lasted to l.20 again. At no point i was pointed to any instanced dungeon, though perhaps it's just my fault as i played the game in its vanilla form, without automated guide to send me to the right places, lolquestlines be damned.

tl;dr -- it really didn't feel any different from other MMOs, and the play experience of rat bashing remained the same no matter which path through the cellar i picked.

[tmp]

Lineage 2 had PvP?

From my recollection PvP in Lineage 2 would begin right outside gates of the starting village just past the entrance guards (so at l.3-4 or so)  There were people smacking and goading others trying to trick them into a fight so they could then 'pwn the noobs'. It was pretty common throughout the starting island, and seeing characters gone red chased around (or chasing others) was also a frequent experience.

Perhaps this was when the game was still played by people rather than bots, though.

[Threash]

When more people quit before reaching the PvP than are left playing it, the game will not be remembered as a PvP game. 

What makes you think that is the case? I don't see any mass quitting, the game seems healthy and populated.  Several people HERE have quit but that's par for the course, it would be same thing with steak and blowjobs online.  Even so there's still lots of us still playing.

[Venkman]

Aion certainly got a lot right, much more so than WAR

I've played both titles and I disagree with this.  WAR was fun out of the box.  WAR gave me new gaming experiences (PQ's for example), which is saying something after having played every major western MMO prior to WAR.  WAR allowed me to participate in pvp from level 1 that advanced my character in several ways (RL's, XP, Gear) and even adjusted my level to be more competitive out of the gate.  WAR from level 1-21 never felt like a soul crushing grind the likes I had experienced for the previous 10 years of MMO gaming.

WAR screwed up a TON of things... at least it attempted to be more than Lineage flavored WoW + pvp + wings. 

WAR had a lot of cool parts that just didn't work together well. Aions parts worked together, they just had a screwed up sense of priority (as in PvP and flying not nearly early enough, and odd XP curves).

But I definitely agree (and have said in this thread) that Aion should have done what WAR did by having almost-right-away PvP. That could have changed a lot.

Oddly, WAR felt more grindy because the stuff I could do didn't advance me at the same pace as the PvE did. Meanwhile, Aion never got grindy for me because at least the first 25 levels had enough content to see me through just fine. I just got bored.

Just to clarify, my comment was only meant to imply that if you say Aion won't be remembered as a RvR game (good or bad is beyond the point) then your posts are solely based on some delirious wrong assumptions going on in your mind reinforced by the fact that you never cared to play it.

We'll need to see. In about a year. My logic:

• Diku RvR does not have widespread appeal. Maybe it's because nobody's got it right yet. But whatever, it doesn't move box sales in western markets (thus making Lineage 2 comparisons interesting for a number of reasons).
• People who wanted RvR in Aion have a basis of comparison from prior games. Chances are that's DAoC, in the west anyway. Or maybe SB (not technically RvR, but close enough).
• DAoC got great years after launch, but was for a lot of its life a relatively big fish in a relatively small pond. And is remembered for an activity that had even narrower appeal.

So for Aion to be remembered for it's great RvR, it needs to have done it better than DAoC and attracted a lot more people than DAoC ever had. Doesn't matter what "a lot" actually is, but this is why I compared it to WoW. WoW now is the PvE diku game that defines the genre. It replaced EQ1, which has become mostly a history lesson for hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of people who've never actually played it.

I don't think Aion is going to replace DAoC, because I don't think it improved enough on the formula. Maybe Aion with level 1 PvP, appropriate abilities, XP from PvP right away, and level 1 flight could have. But you only get one chance to launch.

And make no mistake. It's not that I've got some twisted sense of what-coulda-been. It's that I don't have the patience to play through bullshit just to get to the good stuff anymore. So that probably just makes me "not the target" for this.

[Checkers]

Apparently many people did not have this experience, but everyone who I know who played Lineage 2 from the start (including myself) definitely remember it as a PvP game.  The grind did, however, cause myself and just about everyone else to eventually quit.  

I remember being shocked when I first started playing WoW and people were referring to PvP in that game, as though PvP was simply about killing other players for no apparent gain other than to, well, kill them.  I still have a hard time with so-called PvP MMOs that have only a minimal social and political element to the PvP.

[gryeyes]

Im out, complete lack of CS combined with a veritable flood of botting/RMT at every level has sealed the deal.

[Falconeer]

Apparently many people did not have this experience, but everyone who I know who played Lineage 2 from the start (including myself) definitely remember it as a PvP game.  The grind did, however, cause myself and just about everyone else to eventually quit.  

I remember being shocked when I first started playing WoW and people were referring to PvP in that game, as though PvP was simply about killing other players for no apparent gain other than to, well, kill them.  I still have a hard time with so-called PvP MMOs that have only a minimal social and political element to the PvP.

This post reflects my feelings 101%, thanks Checkers for finding the right words for me.

On another note, I am starting to wonder if the part of the world I am from plays a role on how I see games and gaming. For instance, if I were from South Korea, we would be arguing over and over about what is fun and what is not, what is PvP and what is not, what is succesful and what is not. Claiming market differences wouldn't simply make it possible to label something as unsuccesful or crappy just because it works only in Asia.
Now, I am just from Southern Europe and I always had this feeling that here on f13 we kinda belong to the same gaming pool, give or take a few differences. But recently, I'm honestly asking myself if there aren't more discrepancies in our lifestyles, cultures and customs that make for a substantially diverging perception of fun.
Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for excuses, and I am not saying I am "the norm" as a gamer around here, I am as niche as I am in America, just saying that our niche here is maybe more open PvP oriented than North American one (let alone that such niche is abslutely under-represented on f13 anyway). I mean, seriously, Lineage 2? That's a good example because yes it is a PvP game, was THE one since the beginning and it still perceived as such by anyone I know. From my perspective, you are the exception, folks. And from an Asian point of view, we are all crazy here.

Talking about persepctives, and not simple right or wrong, would be lovely to have a few Russians here, a bunch of Koreans and a handful of Chineses.

[DLRiley]

F13 is far too racist to have a south korean who speaks english as his or hers second language on this board.

[nurtsi]

Talking about persepctives, and not simple right or wrong, would be lovely to have a few Russians here, a bunch of Koreans and a handful of Chineses.

I live right next to Russia. Does that count? 

[Numtini]

From my recollection PvP in Lineage 2 would begin right outside gates of the starting villag

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At least in the USA beta, it started at the spawn point. I spawned and was PK'd. I assume the guards killed the guy, but griefers don't care about that.

I like the description of War as being a game with a lot of neat stuff that didn't work together. I really enjoyed the PVP instances. I just didn't want to do another 10,000 of them. And I had no faith in the end game. The whole weird half raid half pvp thing I never really understood.

I think Aion would be a fantastic game if it was created by a US company. But as I played in the beta and preview, more and more I'd notice stuff I thought should be fixed or adjusted, but almost everything that wasn't working for me was a Korean aspect and I knew it wasn't going to be on the table. They can adjust quests and stuff, but unless they're going to completely branch the code, Korean tastes are in charge. I think that's why I never picked it up after being so enthusiastic about it.

[Threash]

Talking about persepctives, and not simple right or wrong, would be lovely to have a few Russians here, a bunch of Koreans and a handful of Chineses.

I live right next to Russia. Does that count? 

Can you see it from your house?

[Morfiend]

I think Aion would be a fantastic game if it was created by a US company. But as I played in the beta and preview, more and more I'd notice stuff I thought should be fixed or adjusted, but almost everything that wasn't working for me was a Korean aspect and I knew it wasn't going to be on the table. They can adjust quests and stuff, but unless they're going to completely branch the code, Korean tastes are in charge. I think that's why I never picked it up after being so enthusiastic about it.

This is how I feel. Except I was taken in by all the PR spin of "We are making lots of changes to make it appealing to a Western market". I dont think its a bad game, and a lot of people seem to enjoy grinding (boggle), but I dont, so I continue to look for a game with open world PVP that doesnt require me to grind foozles for hours and hours before getting to the good stuff.

[Threash]

I think Aion would be a fantastic game if it was created by a US company. But as I played in the beta and preview, more and more I'd notice stuff I thought should be fixed or adjusted, but almost everything that wasn't working for me was a Korean aspect and I knew it wasn't going to be on the table. They can adjust quests and stuff, but unless they're going to completely branch the code, Korean tastes are in charge. I think that's why I never picked it up after being so enthusiastic about it.

This is how I feel. Except I was taken in by all the PR spin of "We are making lots of changes to make it appealing to a Western market". I dont think its a bad game, and a lot of people seem to enjoy grinding (boggle), but I dont, so I continue to look for a game with open world PVP that doesnt require me to grind foozles for hours and hours before getting to the good stuff.

Its not really enjoyment of grinding so much as seeing no difference between sitting in on place killing mobs and sitting in one place killing mobs while periodically running back to a quest giver.  Leveling is leveling and as long as it keeps happening at a decent pace i'm happy.

[Ashamanchill]

Yeah this one's like the chick you run into at a party who's awesome and totally clicks with you, but she's not into dudes. If circumstances had been different...
Oh well, back to the spouse (WoW for me). Sigh...