Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[DLRiley]

Pvp with no personal skill involved is the primary reason why mmo pvp puts me to sleep.

[Ard]

Looks like NCSoft just mailed out xp scrolls to everyone.  So at least they're cognizant of the xp wall issue. 

[Xanthippe]

This game is the closest to DAOC type pvp battles that I used to enjoy.  Keep taking and defending is very fun.

Of course, it's annoying to get ganked in the Abyss by practically every class - as a templar, I don't have a great deal of skills to prevent that at level 30.  My understanding is that at end game, that changes. 

There are two other zones I can go to, though, where it's less likely that I'll run into gankage.

The crafting has me completely hooked.  It's like gambling.

[Xanthippe]

Oh and on another note:  one can buy costumes at the dye shop, and morph one's armor into the costume.

I haven't done it yet (out of money at the moment due to massive craft session) but I did see a chick with a cute Christmas outfit - white fur trim on a red miniskirt, with a red Santa cap with reindeer antlers.

I've been waiting for such a feature for so long.   

[Nebu]

I've been waiting for such a feature for so long.   

EQ2 has an appearance tab.  It's 10 shades of wonderful. 

[Ard]

Lord of the rings also.  My wife got beaten down by someone wearing the santa outfit.  That somehow made it easier to swallow for her for some reason.

[Threash]

This game is the closest to DAOC type pvp battles that I used to enjoy.  Keep taking and defending is very fun.

Of course, it's annoying to get ganked in the Abyss by practically every class - as a templar, I don't have a great deal of skills to prevent that at level 30.  My understanding is that at end game, that changes. 

There are two other zones I can go to, though, where it's less likely that I'll run into gankage.

The crafting has me completely hooked.  It's like gambling.

As a templar your anti-gank defense is well... being a templar.  Try doing repeatable quests near guard towers, i know there are some good ones Elyos side, the only times i got ganked were when i got one shotted at low hit points, that should be a lot harder to do to a templar.

[gryeyes]

At least NCsoft is starting to give us free shit! Exp scrolls in the mail today.

[Venkman]

The thing that's not currently working for me is the same bullshit that keeps me from investing in most MMOs that my metaguild doesn't bother with. The worst kind of cockblock for me is the goddamned Healer required kind.

Seriously, it should be obvious after all these decades that fewer people want to player healers than other classes. And yet these games keep requiring them. It's just another way of limiting loot entering the system, but while developers happily have experimented with spreading DPS, tank and CC abilities around, they still stick with having a single class as a primary healer.

I'd rather give all classes the ability to be a primary healer, so that the 10% or whatever amount of people who like that role can be the ones to choose perform it in a group. The rest will just have to vote along the way to see who needs to do it just to get the job done. But at least they'll still be able to take a shot at all.

[DLRiley]

The requirement is actually not that darcaonian. Though I generally doubt mmo developers implement dedicated healer classes other than for the sole purpose of having dedicated healing classes. In general the damage a single player can take at once > his reaction time and the amount of healing in his given skill bar even if its something like 300 pages long. You can't do attacking and healing consistently, even if your healing while attack your generally subject to receiving such a large number of damage placed on you that you can't humanly react to, mostly due to you be already dead. This comes into play heavily in the pvp meta game, though few games require the strategic thought to pinpoint whats really going on. For example everyone knows the healer dies within seconds in most mmo's but why isn't really understood. The healer just heals, which means he can react to the insane amount of damage coming to his party at once and if good can do so constitutionally (thus killing him is top priority). Most games don't go this far along as to design this way intentionally(since most of the time healers exist to fill 1. a pve niche and 2. because it adds to the "how many classes do you have!" count), so once the healer dies the party drops and everyone goes "huh".

 The problem your really having Darn is an issue no developer touched is what is the intention of the overall balance of the classes, not just can a player solo to x level. You have to intentionally make classes self contained so when you DO make group content the need for a healer is not there (in pve anyway). And you have to intentionally make your classes interdependent or you have half assed ideas here and there that eventually become your typical tank and spank when put into practice. Then you have to make sure that the players play the game as intended, not because your trying to see "my way or the high way" but because you want to prevent your players from adding apples and oranges because you know the answer is nonsense. What your really tired of is B team game design.

[Venkman]

Actually, no, I'm not saying they should nix the function of healing. What I'm saying is that, if a game is going to stick with linear/vertical classes, give the role of primary healer to more than just one or two classes. Ideally, you'd give it to everyone. Then if you had a group of tanks and ranged attackers show up (the kind of classes most people go for), then it becomes a player's choice to become the primary healer for that encounter. Consider it like the four talent tree in WoW everyone automatically has and gets automatically populated. Or that third Job everyone gets.

At this point then it becomes a question of whose the best healer based on what the player does.

Once they do that, then we can talk about mixxing tank and dps together.

And then where back to UO skill lines. And my plans will be complete! Muahaha!

[DLRiley]

I understand what your saying Darn. You just failed to reference Guild Wars  .

[Draegan]

I never had a problem with healing in this game.  I had a problem with finding a tank most nights.

[Sheepherder]

Yup, though if the game is made in a way where cyclic, mechanical repetitions of always the same key presses is "for the win" then i'm not sure if the players can be blamed for taking advantage of that.

No shit they can't be blamed.  That doesn't make it fun, and if it's not fun NCSoft/Blizzard/Mythic did it wrong.

Random elements that test a player's awareness like procs, abilities used at irregular intervals (reactive, situational, or irregular cooldown periods), and irregular fight mechanics are the closest thing to a challenge in your average WoW clone.  This could probably be done with eight buttons.

[DLRiley]

Yup, though if the game is made in a way where cyclic, mechanical repetitions of always the same key presses is "for the win" then i'm not sure if the players can be blamed for taking advantage of that.

No shit they can't be blamed.  That doesn't make it fun, and if it's not fun NCSoft/Blizzard/Mythic did it wrong.

Random elements that test a player's awareness like procs, abilities used at irregular intervals (reactive, situational, or irregular cooldown periods), and irregular fight mechanics are the closest thing to a challenge in your average WoW clone.  This could probably be done with eight buttons.

Guild Wars.

[Falconeer]

Sheesh, this guy has Guild Wars as Telemediocrity/Hyu had Asheron's Call. Guild Wars is a great game, got many things right, but it's instance-tastic, which to many is still the opposite of a MMORPG, semantics aside. That's why it gets neglected so often around here and that's why there's hoping for Guild Wars 2, which promises to be more worldly.


On Aion, this thing/event incoming:

During the fall harvest, from time immemorial, the people of Atreia have celebrated the bounty of the land. Years ago, the joy of the annual revels was troubled by an eclipse - a peculiar and magical eclipse that brought darkness to Asmodae and Elysea. Ever since, for days during Harvest Revel, the sky goes dark and the peoples of Atreia join the hunt.
Asmodians find soothing peace during the dark days of the Harvest Revel. They celebrate by racing after the Wild Kurthanir hunt leader during the Wild Hunt and cooking special traditional dishes.
Elyos endure the dark days because during them the dead of Elysea are restless. Undead creatures rise from the grave every few hours, pulled back into a semblance of life by the power of the eclipse. Elyos must join roving Dark Night bands to hunt and destroy the undead before they invade Elyos villages.
Log in each day during Harvest Revel. Celebrate with us and every day rewards your investment with new Aion lore and tasty treats!
 
Harvest Revel
Begin: October 25, 2009
End: October 31, 2009
 
May your wings be strong and swift! We'll see you in Atreia!

[tmp]

Hmm game had a patch yesterday. Small one, basically boiled down to "we tweaked our spam filter".

Amazingly enough it seems to be working at least for the time being. Since the servers were brought back up saw maybe two gold sale ads in the whole day.

[Secundo]

Merge with carwars and let me train a .50 on the cute and cuddly..  goddamn.. this game is like reaching into a very small(yet good looking) bag of goodies, knowing whats in there, and still end up disappointed. Frustrating!

Refuse!

[Threash]

Hmm game had a patch yesterday. Small one, basically boiled down to "we tweaked our spam filter".

Amazingly enough it seems to be working at least for the time being. Since the servers were brought back up saw maybe two gold sale ads in the whole day.

You can't type the words "4gold".   I doubt thats all they block but i bet that one helped a ton.

[Koyasha]

Something I've seen today that seems highly bizarre is a complete lack of URL's at all.  It's just a bunch of | | | | lines with hearts and symbols.  And the occasional number, like 1000k=14.

Whatever the message is supposed to be, it's incomprehensible, but they're still trying to spam it.  WTF?

[Tarami]

Merge with carwars and let me train a .50 on the cute and cuddly..  goddamn.. this game is like reaching into a very small(yet good looking) bag of goodies, knowing whats in there, and still end up disappointed. Frustrating!

Refuse!

So how would you say the new medication is working?

[Secundo]

Merge with carwars and let me train a .50 on the cute and cuddly..  goddamn.. this game is like reaching into a very small(yet good looking) bag of goodies, knowing whats in there, and still end up disappointed. Frustrating!

Refuse!

So would you say the new medication is working?

What? who said that?

[Koyasha]

Oh, and on the topic of how involving the stories of the quests are, if you actually bother to read the quests in Aion they're very involving.  The campaign quests are your orders for a specific region - you get the Altgard introduction at level 10 where you meet Suthran and he gives you your missions in the region, then you get the Morheim introduction at 20 and general Aegir gives you your missions there, and finally Beluslan at 30 where Nerita gives you your missions.  They may "inexplicably" pop up in your log, but that's very much explained by them being orders that you're receiving.  Sure, maybe it'd make more sense to have a shugo deliveryman show up with a letter, but hey, the concept of 'these are your new orders' is clearly there.  Some are infact revealed by leveling up, but that's just a mechanic to prevent people from going 'well this quest is in my log so I should go do it even though it's much higher level than me'.

I think that the removal of the vast majority of non-campaign quests would be a good thing, but a lot of people would feel lost without the quest to kill 10 rats and 20 mice.  And then there's the non-campaign quests that are really significant and interesting if you bother to read them.  The aforementioned lumberjack's diary on the Elyos side (which has a continuation in Sanctum, where you meet the Daeva involved and can make further choices about the quest), the kobolds in love (never finished that one since I play Asmodian main) and so on.  On the Asmodian side I'm doing a quest that really strikes me as interesting and somewhat sad right now - one guy who ascended as a Daeva a long time ago is trying to fulfill his daughter's last wish.  She's dying of old age, since she never ascended, but he's immortal.

Aion's quests - with the exception of random delivery quests and kill rat quests - seem to be more involved and more logical given your position and everyone else in the world, in my opinion, than most quests in other games.  In Aion you're a Daeva and you're supposed to fulfill these duties that are set forth for you, and it's your responsibility to help and protect the humans.  In WoW, you're a random adventurer dude, and why the hell anyone would put the Fate of the World in your hands is nigh incomprehensible.

[Threash]

You are not even some random Daeva, you are former bad ass.  Anyways another minor annoyance, old mail does not auto delete.

[DLRiley]

Its not an issue of whether or not there are story telling quest. Its the fact that you can't tell a story when grinding is background music. Even if 1/3rd of your quest simply exist because your attempting to get players from point A. to point B. and the 2/3rds are epic story telling, the players will assume that 90% of your quests are point A. to B. quest with flavor text. This is where the assumption that "players don't read quest text" comes from. 99.99% of the time players are more concerned with their vertical progression, the only way to force them to pay attention is to remove the vertical progression very early on.

[Kail]

Looks like NCSoft just mailed out xp scrolls to everyone.  So at least they're cognizant of the xp wall issue. 

Quick note, in case anyone hasn't already hit theirs: these are dispensed by the poll mechanic, and limited to one per account, as far as I can tell.  Also, can't be traded or put in the account warehouse.  So only pick it up with the character you intend to use it on.

You are not even some random Daeva, you are former bad ass.  Anyways another minor annoyance, old mail does not auto delete.

This actually pissed me off.  Every damn time some game pulls that "YOU are the great badass who lost his memory" schtick I want to hit something.  Especially in an MMO.  I can buy that every Orc has to start out in The Valley of Trials or whatever, and all have basically the same adventures as me, but I can't buy the idea that we're all actually fundamentally the same guy.

[Gunzwei]

Actually, no, I'm not saying they should nix the function of healing. What I'm saying is that, if a game is going to stick with linear/vertical classes, give the role of primary healer to more than just one or two classes. Ideally, you'd give it to everyone. Then if you had a group of tanks and ranged attackers show up (the kind of classes most people go for), then it becomes a player's choice to become the primary healer for that encounter...

Rising Force Online (Korean PVP MMORPG) was like this. Healers were replaced with healing potion spam so everyone was a dps or tank. Had some of the best RVR I've ever played and probably the worst PVE grind.

Oh, and on the topic of how involving the stories of the quests are, if you actually bother to read the quests in Aion they're very involving...

...Aion's quests - with the exception of random delivery quests and kill rat quests - seem to be more involved and more logical given your position and everyone else in the world, in my opinion, than most quests in other games.  In Aion you're a Daeva and you're supposed to fulfill these duties that are set forth for you, and it's your responsibility to help and protect the humans.  In WoW, you're a random adventurer dude, and why the hell anyone would put the Fate of the World in your hands is nigh incomprehensible.

I'll agree that some of the quests are written very well but I didn't feel very Daeva like when i was pretty much stuck grinding the same patch of dirt for several hours to level in the 30's. Good quest design should incorporate the lore with the progression, WotLK/GW are good examples. The second a player has to break with the flow of the game to do a menail repetitive task, grinding the same 5 mobs for instance, they're no more special than random gold spamming dude. The charm of random adventure dude is that he/she probably has more personal stories to develop and tell from their adventures than the in-game lore/reasoning ever could have.

[jakonovski]

This actually pissed me off.  Every damn time some game pulls that "YOU are the great badass who lost his memory" schtick I want to hit something.  Especially in an MMO.  I can buy that every Orc has to start out in The Valley of Trials or whatever, and all have basically the same adventures as me, but I can't buy the idea that we're all actually fundamentally the same guy.

That's why one should never use out of game knowledge to shape the in game experience. In game it's all perfectly consistent and nobody else is pointed out as being an amnesiac badass. They're just other daevas running around doing whatever.

[Koyasha]

Unless of course they ever happen to talk to each other in-character.  "Yeah, Munin said I'm destined to fight Hellion, and the fate of Asmodae is in my hands."  "No shit?  He told me the same thing."  "Yeah, me too!"  Times all the characters on the server.

Yes, making you The Hero is very weak in MMO's.  But people seem to find it better than being The Totally Unimportant Guy and it's certainly better than being The Random Guy that People Trust to Save The World.

Doing the same menial repetitive task is sometimes entirely reasonable.  Ok, I'm not sure why I'm grinding wildlife still, especially wildlife in the Abyss that isn't even threatening human towns or anything, but some of the things we grind - balaur, in particular - are reasonable.  It could certainly be set up better, so it feels more like we're fighting a huge enemy army that we're chipping away at, but that's pretty much the idea.

[jakonovski]

Good point. I'm now convinced that MMO devs don't actually want their players to RP.

[Venkman]

It's not that devs don't want players to RP. It's that they accept most won't. Because for the most part, RP is entirely voluntary. There's no ingame benefit to it, because these games have little accountability outside of whatever constructs the players create themselves (guilds, DKP, etc). Gamers don't come to RPGs to thee and thou their way up the social ladder.

Rising Force Online (Korean PVP MMORPG) was like this. Healers were replaced with healing potion spam so everyone was a dps or tank. Had some of the best RVR I've ever played and probably the worst PVE grind.

Bah. Yet another cool idea locked behind some alienating front end guaranteeing others don't bother experimenting with it for years.

[ezrast]

RP isn't necessarily related to immersion, though. I don't RP but I still feel attached to my characters and like to think I'm playing in a coherent world. There's a not-so-fine line between "The fate of the world rests upon YOU ALONE" and "You are insignificant. Insignificant!" that MMO writers can't seem to help falling on one side or the other of.

Back on the issue of healers, people need to stop coming into discussions with the assumption that a "primary healer" must either be strictly necessary or nonexistent. Useful and optional are not mutually exclusive.

tl;dr City of Heroes

[Threash]

Designing content were a healer is not required but having one doesn't trivialize everything is not as easy as it sounds.

[Redgiant]

Designing content were a healer is not required but having one doesn't trivialize everything is not as easy as it sounds.

The healer role is inherently one a Socializer picks. Its basic function is to aid others (sure, you can argue it aids self too but the reason someone chooses a healer class and gives up the higher tank/DPS charactistics is rather obvious don't you think? Otherwise why would they?).

The other roles are NOT chosen to aid others. People don't play them to help other teammates as their primary job.

Let me ask a question to measure selfishness. How many groups do you form or join when you don't have a specific quest or mob YOU want to kill? I do it all the time to help people, legionmates or not. I drive-by buf and heal people - anyone - who needs it all the time as I move around.

Why would anyone socially-inclined play a healer class in a game that allows the more solo-oriented classes to heal themselves? That would gut a large portion of the empathic Bartle types who play the game.

Do you really expect to take a group into Fire Temple without a healing class? And if so, can I get a group of 5 clerics to go into Fire Temple with enough of the tanking and DPS skills of other classes to do the same?

[Venkman]

Designing content were a healer is not required but having one doesn't trivialize everything is not as easy as it sounds.

If your first goal is "like WoW, but..." then yea, it isn't easy.