Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Checkers]

Everything is really neat looking and strange so nothing really has an impact of going to see neat looking shit and exploring you do in other games.

I agree with this, and it's a very interesting point because it's a problem that I've never really encountered in another MMO.  I feel bad even calling it a "problem".  There's some great art in Aion - some of the best I've seen in any game; but, is it possible that the artists did too good of a job?  Is the world too attractive?  Is it so refined that its ultimately plain and uninteresting?  The last thing I'd ever want to do is attribute a game's failings to its artists not being lazy enough.

[Threash]

This rocks.

[UnSub]

This rocks.

Generic incoming in 3, 2, 1...

I think NCsoft Korea must not have the same kind of massive IP concerns about being sued that NCsoft West must have.

[LK]

Those are some hot-detailed avatars in that screenshot.

[Kageru]

That's sort of the point though. People like to think WoW changed the rules. But the reality is that five years on, all they did was invent new ones. Take WoW out of the equation and this genre hasn't really evolved at all, except to at least have a guaranteed playable game on day one. Without the elephant in the room, all of these games would have launched in worse condition and kept ardent fanbois for longer while they screamed louder in collectively-dumbed-down places around the web. This would have continued the tradiiton of giving false permission for crappy launches.

Nowadays, at least with WoW, we're afforded slightly less crappy launches. Hurray for progress!  

No, there's heaps of innovation but it's mostly inside wow. The "Wow is for kids, I'm too cool for that" people (and warhammer developers) just miss it entirely. Just recently wow has introduced phasing allowing MMO's to tell a progressive story, vehicles as a core gameplay mechanic, raid content that allows you to set difficulty without breaking immersion (Ulduar hardmodes and achievements), world PvP that has some concept of self-balancing and actually integrating twinking / alts while avoiding old cock-blocks like tiered raid content and AA point requirements. For the next expansions they're going to try (and probably fail, at least initially) ranked battlegrounds, rejuvenating the old-world (something EQ never did), cross server PvE instances (so old world dungeons remain viable) and a new progression mechanic.

This is not the thread for that though.

It really disappoints me that a 5 year old game is still so dominant. Games like Champions where there's a pretty start and no idea where they're going long term just aggravate me. Much better to come up with some novel gameplay mechanics, some space to play and a clear plan to expand it so that one day you can challenge wow. Instead it's all about selling the boxes.

I'm not sure Aion has any new answers though. The core progression mechanic is pretty much taken from early WoW PvP where it proved to be ball-breaker. Nor do I think the balaur will balance world PvP in any way that adds to gameplay. At it least it covers a gameplay choice, in world PvP, that is under-represented. Same could probably be said of Eve, and possibly fallen earth if they grow it well.

[Gunzwei]

Hadn't it already been up and running in Korea for a year?  If so, that's not really comparing apples to apples.  

For the majority of NA players it doesn't matter where or when a game launches elsewhere.  It's our launch that matters to our perceptions of it.

If we wanted to have an exact comparison though, we could ask how WAR is doing in Russia and Taiwan.

The other day I had to move the english .pak files around so I could launch the game in Korean to get a chat option with a NPC to show up (lvl 30 asmo daevaonian armor exchange). Nothing quite as fun as navigating 3 different menus of Korean NPC text in a game that was promoted as "westernized".

As far as AION's retention they're banking on a carrot that's at the end of a really long ass stick. They should have taken some time to streamline the game into having a faster pace and dropping you into where you want to be. Personally this is why I think so many people enjoy GW or WoW's BGs/Arena. It's not so much that people particularly like the combat systems or instanced pvp but the fact that all it takes is a few mouse clicks to get into the action. Even RFO had a more streamlined RVR experience than what I've seen in AION and it was way more of a grindy Korean POS.

With a few key changes AION could be a much better game, but the same could be said about every other MMO that's come out over the past decade.

[tmp]

It's a solid game, but it's not the train ride to 60 that WoW was at launch.

To be fair, WoW at launch was hardly kittens and roses in terms of levelling speed, either -- the first player catass to hit l.60 managed that after 11 days since the game launch. It might've been more controlled experience but there's still comments about final levels (40 onward) of the game being mostly a grind. Subsequent cuts and the "pay us extra for faster xp" system make a different impression now few years since the launch.

[Morfiend]

It's a solid game, but it's not the train ride to 60 that WoW was at launch.

To be fair, WoW at launch was hardly kittens and roses in terms of levelling speed, either -- the first player catass to hit l.60 managed that after 11 days since the game launch. It might've been more controlled experience but there's still comments about final levels (40 onward) of the game being mostly a grind. Subsequent cuts and the "pay us extra for faster xp" system make a different impression now few years since the launch.

I think the quests where much more well done in WoW. Yeah, its maybe seen a bit through rose colored glasses, but I always had fun questing in WoW. Aion quests feel poorly designed for the most part and lacking any real meat, they are just thinly desguised grinding. While WoWs quests where the same thing, the pace and flow felt much better, even in vanilla WoW close to release.

[tmp]

I gave WoW early level questing a spin just a couple months ago on the free trial actually... and yup, it definitely seems like rose coloured glasses  This is to say, there really wasn't anything about the WoW quests and flow that'd stand out compared to LotRO and now Aion. Of course, WoW deserves the credit for paving the way for these others so to speak, but the kill10rats and storylines are very comparable quality-wise.

[Kageh]

It's a solid game, but it's not the train ride to 60 that WoW was at launch.

To be fair, WoW at launch was hardly kittens and roses in terms of levelling speed, either -- the first player catass to hit l.60 managed that after 11 days since the game launch. It might've been more controlled experience but there's still comments about final levels (40 onward) of the game being mostly a grind. Subsequent cuts and the "pay us extra for faster xp" system make a different impression now few years since the launch.

Not to derail, but WoW was a hell of a train ride at launch. Casuals were hitting level 60 in 3 months and having fun. I fondly remember the lore that was behind places like Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, Badlands with all the quest chains leading into BRD, Plaguelands with Stratholme and Scholo, LBRS/UBRS. You were exploring and if you paid attention it was all pretty impressive and well-thought out. Heck, even the nightmare of every casual player, The Barrens with its horrible chat and the quests that were constantly having you rund 15 minutes around was conveying a sense of achievement and exploration. It really did feel like a vast african Savannah type of territory. There was unfinished content in the endgame bracket, yes (Silithus, for example), but what was there was of very high quality. And lots more than most games that came after WoW. People that nowadays say it was all broken or not working or whatnot are either not remembering or outright lying. Yes, it had lots of "kill me 10 rats" quests, but it had lots of good quests, too, and quite a few memorable ones.

Nowadays, in AION we go from point A to point B for a grand total of 200 yards beeline but meandering for about 5 miles just so we run around a bit longer, and while doing so we get about 90% "kill me 10 rats" quests for killing, quests which border somewhere between sick and dumb. I feel more like the local wildlife exterminator, in a sadistic and cruel way - hello EVIL ADULT SPARKIE OF DOOM AND INFAMOUS SNUFFLENOSE GOPHER HERE COMES DIVINE JUSTICE WRRAAAAARGH - than a demi-god. And the novelty of flying wears off quickly. The tactical depth, at least up to level 20, is pretty much that of EQ from 10 years ago, combat is a matter of pressing the same 5 buttons in the exact same order for a couple minutes, there are hardly any reactive abilities and the next level is a mere 2000 kills of a mob away while skill diversification through stigmas or equipment is quite underwhelming. Hello, 1999!

[Falconeer]

Not to derail, but WoW was a hell of a train ride at launch. Casuals were hitting level 60 in 3 months and having fun. I fondly remember the lore that was behind places like Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, Badlands with all the quest chains leading into BRD, Plaguelands with Stratholme and Scholo, LBRS/UBRS. You were exploring and if you paid attention it was all pretty impressive and well-thought out. Heck, even the nightmare of every casual player, The Barrens with its horrible chat and the quests that were constantly having you rund 15 minutes around was conveying a sense of achievement and exploration. It really did feel like a vast african Savannah type of territory. There was unfinished content in the endgame bracket, yes (Silithus, for example), but what was there was of very high quality. And lots more than most games that came after WoW. People that nowadays say it was all broken or not working or whatnot are either not remembering or outright lying. Yes, it had lots of "kill me 10 rats" quests, but it had lots of good quests, too, and quite a few memorable ones.

You are just describing what people were feeling in 1999 with EQ, too. The excitement of a working, new massive world doesn't always have to do with its real absolute value. WoW questing was better than everything by its time, but it wasn't nothing special and it still is not. Nostalgy plays a great role when it's time to write "biographies". It's ok that you and a few other millions players remember the WoW questgrind experience as incredibly refreshing, but that was it: usual generic 10 rats based questgrind, as it can be found in many other games. People were loving every aspect of the game, from the combat/leveling pace to the art direction, and they still do, but a questgrind is a questgrind and when it comes to storytelling EQ2 was far superior since the get go if you ask me. Too bad it was inferior on so many other things that its qualities were so completely overshadowed and quickly forgotten. All that said, 10 rats will always be 10 rats, in every MMO, doesn't really matters how much you sugar coat them. What makes the difference is how rewarding is the perception of your 10 rats. That is were WoW scored all its records over everything, Aion included. Aion quests are underwhelming when it comes to rewards. Big, pathetic mistake.

I don't really feel like talking about Aion now, but I have a question, which is seriously not JUST Aion related: how come no one, not even an indie software house, is experimenting with what everyone has been preaching since basically forever, meaning a game where you level very very fast, like you hit the cap in like 5 days hardcore and 30 days very casual? Yes I know, everyone would burn content so fast, but dammit, if your game is going to be PvP, so content is almost self-produced, how terrible can it be to get to the cap soon? Shadowbane did this when it was dying already and it was a huge (for its standards) success, everyone loved it and kept making alts to add to their stable of PvP chars. This makes so much sense in PvP games, but I still feel it could work for PvE ones: instead of creating content from lev 1 to 50 and then nothing, you create the same amount of content, but since you get to 50 first, you spend half of your given content for the level up and the other half for the top level stuff, where advancement isn't vertical anymore (levels) but horizontal (equipment, unlocking zones, etc). If anything, I am surprised no one tried (no, Guild Wars doesn't count as a MMO) or is even trying to make a MMO where getting to the top takes  less than a month for the general public. Or what about ten normal servers and a FAST xp one? If everything goes on the fast XP one, then they are probably trying to tell you something!

Are they SO sure that the market wants to level up forever? And IF that is the case, isn't that what alts are for anyway?

[Kageh]

You are just describing what people were feeling in 1999 with EQ, too. The excitement of a working, new massive world doesn't always have to do with its real absolute value. WoW questing was better than everything by its time, but it wasn't nothing special and it still is not. Nostalgy plays a great role when it's time to write biographies actually. It's ok that you and a few other millions players remember the WoW questgrind experience as incredibly refreshing, but that was it: usual generic 10 rats based questgrind, as it can be found in many other games. People were loving every aspect of the game, from the combat/leveling pace to the art direction, and they still do, but a questgrind is a questgrind and when it comes to storytelling EQ2 was far superior since the get go if you ask me. Too bad it was inferior on so many other things that its qualities were so completely overshadowed and quickly forgotten. All that said, 10 rats will always be 10 rats, in every MMO, doesn't really matters how much you sugar coat them. What makes the difference is how rewarding is the perception of your 10 rats. That is were WoW scored all its records over everything, Aion included. Aion quests are underwhelming when it comes to rewards. Big, pathetic mistake.

Derail incoming!

No.

WoW questing was special and was able to tell some very good stories. From level one onwards, were you were killing the local level 5 centaur overlord and thwarting the invasion of Orgrimmar, to that poor soul in the Plaguelands that had died without being able to reach her brother. I still remember the level 10 Quest where you had to stop that orc warlock from betraying Thrall. It felt "cool" in a way that "kill 10 rats didn't". On to the ghostly kids still running around Scholomance island while you were uncovering past events (whatever the island was called, I don't remember) and the stories of important figures like Nathanos, Tirion, the prince from DM West, there were chilling, thrilling, funny moments and lots of them were unique. Even the ubiquitous killing of 10 rats was often done in the name of something epic. Not "epic for the reward" but "'epic cause it felt so". It's not "me and a few million people remembering that wrong", if you don't know what I mean. It is you having missed that. And that's okay, but it's not that it wasn't different just because you didn't care.

EQ had some of that charm due to inspired world design and solid art direction - for its time - but I am not looking back at EQ as anything else than a glorified chat room with nice pictures where me and a bunch of virtual friends were sitting on our virtual (and physical) butts for a couple hours an evening, chain pulling and checking our experience bars every 100th kill. Funnily enough, EQ also had some solid lore for back then, but the game didn't encourage you to care about the lore other than from an academic point of view. The epic quests were interesting, I admit that. Interesting, yet painfully grindy. And not "questgrindy grindy" either, just "grindy".

FWIIW, I played both EQ2 and WoW the day they launched, and I played them both in beta. EQ2 didn't have better stories, at least not the "original launch version" of EQ2. It had a few stories, and it had all the flat moral two-dimensionality of EQ1, packaged in the same ol' uninspired grind from EQ1. Even the zone and art design was inferior to EQ1, with the art style being - to me - way inferior (Oh look how many polygons we have! And we can use all of them to build a plastic world!). The innovations of EQ2 weren't in the story telling or the quest system. Maybe you're talking today's EQ2, which is indeed a different beast and has copied a lot from WoW.

I am not glorifying anything about WoW, I'm just giving it credit where credit is due. They made the quest approach mainstream, and they did it in an inspired way.

Sorry for the derail. To returnd the thread on topic:   AION is not moving anything forward. It's not even trying to compete. It's sort of nudging you to PVP and makes some feeble attempts at good writing. Then you get to PVP and probably notice it doesn't really change that much. Or that it wasn't worth the grind to get there.

[Kageh]

I don't really feel like talking about Aion now, but I have a question, which is seriously not JUST Aion related: how come no one, not even an indie software house, is experimenting with what everyone has been preaching since basically forever, meaning a game where you level very very fast, like you hit the cap in like 5 days hardcore and 30 days very casual? Yes I know, everyone would burn content so fast, but dammit, if your game is going to be PvP, so content is almost self-produced, how terrible can it be to get to the cap soon? Shadowbane did this when it was dying already and it was a huge (for its standards) success, everyone loved it and kept making alts to add to their stable of PvP chars. This makes so much sense in PvP games, but I still feel it could work for PvE ones: instead of creating content from lev 1 to 50 and then nothing, you create the same amount of content, but since you get to 50 first, you spend half of your given content for the level up and the other half for the top level stuff, where advancement isn't vertical anymore (levels) but horizontal (equipment, unlocking zones, etc). If anything, I am surprised no one tried (no, Guild Wars doesn't count as a MMO) or is even trying to make a MMO where getting to the top takes  less than a month for the general public. Or what about ten normal servers and a FAST xp one? If everything goes on the fast XP one, then they are probably trying to tell you something!

Sorry for making this an additional reply, but I think it deserves its own post.

I think part of the success of the MMO concept is the amount of time it takes to level and grow your character, and the sense of progression that comes with it due to advancement through PVE. You become attached to your character in way that makes you care about it. It also makes PVP more meaningful.

If you take that away for 5-day maxing and full PVP afterwards, you're getting too close to shooter territory. Why not go all the way and let players pick pre-defined characters? Because of the "world" you are fighting over? I've played Unreal Tournament maps back in 1999 that were about as big as cities in WoW, and you could siege all way long. There's all sorts of Battlefield mods that offer instant action over huge maps. But, no one would pay for that.

[Falconeer]

Kageh, really, whatever.
You have great memories. Fine. I have different ones. Your tirade full of quotes about why WoW ten rats were so great per se to you is ok, but doesn't really have objective basis. I didn't "quote" specifical quests or storylines from EQ, EQ2 or even Aion stuff because I think it's unnecessary, the result will always be based on a mix of feelings and memories, more than raw quality. Or the perception of quality induced by how rewarding the whole gaming experience was.

Perception is key, and Blizzard has always been the best at leading players perception in the right direction, making look awesome what is just ok thanks to all the other really awesome aspects of the game. It's a trail effect: because of all the things that were good in WoW, the ones that were plain are remembered as good as everything else.
AoC is another good example: biggest issues being the quests became less and less rewarding not just in term of XP (and because of that less interesting to follow, and they weren't enough), but their average quality was high at all levels, it just wasn't that fun to keep gathering those ten rats because of other game issues (poor itemization often makes a game generally not rewarding).

Well, we are free to disagree. WoW quests were nice to me, while EQ2 ones were the awesome from the get go with a few still unparalleled peaks. Aion's are less interesting than WoW ones, but I stand by my idea that a questgrind is a questgrind and the way it rewards you, and the whole game around it, is what makes you perceive it as really better or worse. The more you are enjoying the killing and the social experience, the more you are going to be willing to read a quest dialogue with a satisfied face. It's like that generic summer tune still so dear to you because echoes of that girl you loved who used to play it all the time. *sigh*

[Kageru]

I don't really feel like talking about Aion now, but I have a question, which is seriously not JUST Aion related: how come no one, not even an indie software house, is experimenting with what everyone has been preaching since basically forever, meaning a game where you level very very fast, like you hit the cap in like 5 days hardcore and 30 days very casual?

Guild wars?

[Chimpy]

There are just as many "story line" quests/campaigns in Aion as there were in WoW 4 and a half years ago, in fact, the campaign system actually seems a little more well constructed than the chains of round the world fedex quests in WoW that were solely a way to keep people in the game with loosely veiled pop-culture references. You just have to read them, and not hit escape on the cutscenes.

Sure, the depth of the world may not be as much, but Aion doesn't have 10 years of previous games worth of already created lore/places to use as a foundation.

I am not saying Aion is perfect, it is not by any means, and quests are underwhelming in the reward part. (I really think they need to make quests give a lot more cash to give people both a reason to do them, and to make wallets of players fill up at a rate that won't bankrupt them every 5 levels when they buy new spells.)

[Xanthippe]

Of course, WoW deserves the credit for paving the way for these others so to speak, but the kill10rats and storylines are very comparable quality-wise.

Except in Aion, it's not kill10rats, it's kill 30 rats and 20 mice.

[Falconeer]

I don't really feel like talking about Aion now, but I have a question, which is seriously not JUST Aion related: how come no one, not even an indie software house, is experimenting with what everyone has been preaching since basically forever, meaning a game where you level very very fast, like you hit the cap in like 5 days hardcore and 30 days very casual?

Guild wars?

If it counts as an MMO to you, fine. But in that same post of mine you quoted I said a few lines later:

If anything, I am surprised no one tried (no, Guild Wars doesn't count as a MMO)

I guess you disagree, or you hit quote like instantly.

[gryeyes]

Not even remotely. The world being an unconnected mess has nothing to do with Warcraft having years of "history". A vast majority of WoW's lore is unique to that game beyond the types of creatures. The first instance in Aion is a generic level where the end guy does not even have a name let alone a story. As does every "major" quest chain leading up to that point. There is a vast qualitive distance between Aion and WoW's "quests" that has absolutely fuck all to do with nostalgia. And goes far beyond flavor text. Yeah the cut scenes are neat if entirely underused and lacking in quality and relevance, but thats about it. Shit half the campaign quests are not even tied to an NPC let alone a story. You grind to said level and it magically unlocks in your log, with no reference to anything beyond how much grind you have endured. The bad guys have names like Black Claw chieftain,Klaw Queen and Notascha General. They have no personality or objectives, they are generic grinding mob, they dont even have unique abilities and behavior. Its also difficult to use the "Its a pvp game", because PVE is also intrinsic to the PvP. Mobs take over and hold 'forts' they defend forts, you need to kill these mobs to take space. You attain AP and ranks based in my experience mostly by fighting NPC's.

There is more lore and plot development in WoW leading up to Vancleef than ive seen in the entirety of Aion. All books are not equal because they are books, all grinds are not equal because they involve grinding, equivocating them as being so is a paltry defense. The world is a grinding "race track" with one route from point A-B in 99% the cases. This is also ignoring that most WoW gives plot lines to each race, each has a unique beginning and 1-10 reveals huge plot points that are touched upon all the way to 60.

Never had a problem with money easily having fully expanded bags/bank and 1 mil by 30.

[DLRiley]

Its a bird, its a plane, its Aion falling from grace   . No really why was I the only guy saying "lineage 2 reskinned"? To be fair gryeyes WoW has about what, 5+ years of lore behind World of Warcraft, so it is understandable that their quest and missions actually attempt to tell a story. I mean its not like Aion could hire writers like real game developers do right?  . And really by now fuck the thought that "Guild Wars isn't an MMo so there aren't any lessons to take from it because its not an mmo SEE" in the ass till the anal bleeds. Guild Wars was our only 3rd iteration of mmo's, EQ and UO being the first, EVE and WoW being the second. Warhammer, AoC, FE, Champs, and now Aion  are all attempting to bring the second iteration of mmo's to the next generation, like the mmo's designed around the EQ and UO time was trying to do with the first iteration. I mean really, telling a story, being able to customize your character on the fly, get into the action now pvp, true horizontal advance, gold sinks that aren't cockblocks by another name, 90% of your game being end game content? All are core features of Guild Wars.

At this point devs can keep making 2nd generation mmo's and hell build first generation mmo's built for todays graphic cards, but they aren't going to stick. Even if you remove WoW from the equation the shear number of f2p mmo's with all the core elements of diku bullshit that everyone loves, makes still designing 2nd generation mmo's a losing venture. I mean you can play WoW for free, legally, and with under a new skin AND WoW is still here, so what room is there? FE if it last till December has a chance to capture the "I want EVE but not in SPACE" crowd but that's it folks.

[Slyfeind]

What about totally separating the end-game from the levelling? At character creation, you're ready to go on any raid you want, or compete in any PvP scenario. When you're done, you go back to Leveling Land. All rewards in raids only apply to raids, PvP rewards are only for PvP, and levelling rewards are only for more levelling.

This is, of course, combining three games in one world, but most MMOs do that anyway; just on a different scale.

Another option, of course, is wait for Blizzard to do the ultra-fast levelling game, whereupon devs everywhere will point and laugh at their idiocy, then cry as they bring in 100m subscribers.

[tazelbain]

What about totally separating the end-game from the levelling? At character creation, you're ready to go on any raid you want, or compete in any PvP scenario. When you're done, you go back to Leveling Land. All rewards in raids only apply to raids, PvP rewards are only for PvP, and levelling rewards are only for more levelling.

This is, of course, combining three games in one world, but most MMOs do that anyway; just on a different scale.

Another option, of course, is wait for Blizzard to do the ultra-fast levelling game, whereupon devs everywhere will point and laugh at their idiocy, then cry as they bring in 100m subscribers.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17659.0

[tmp]

Except in Aion, it's not kill10rats, it's kill 30 rats and 20 mice.

Which boils down to the same thing when the WoW quest asks you to bring 10 rat tails and 1 rat out of 5 comes with one

(not to mention brillance that's Stranglethorn Vale, as fondly remembered by Bartle)

[Slyfeind]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17659.0

[Kageh]

Kageh, really, whatever.
You have great memories. Fine. I have different ones. Your tirade full of quotes about why WoW ten rats were so great per se to you is ok, but doesn't really have objective basis.

Define "tirade" please. Is that derogatory? Ironic? Can a "tirade" per se be okay? Is that an oxymoron? 

All is "whatever", except, you are trying to tell me that my memories are my misconception of generic poop and you are seeing through it all? What is "objective" when it comes to quest quality? Your criticism? Do you have metrics what percentage of the WoW quests include item fetching, rat killing, what percentage is purely lore based, which ones are guaranteed drops and so on? I've been lurking around here long enough to know your stance on WoW and yeah, you might be biased, I don't care. But throwing your bias against what you perceive as my bias you are trying to achieve what exactly? Convince me that your bias is "better"? That in the end, mine is just subjective while yours is what would you say, objective?

Like I said, I'm not on a crusade to sell you WoW, I couldn't care less about what you think about WoW. I'm trying to explain what elevates "good questing" above "kill ten rats", while you keep telling me "It's all 10 rats, everywhere, yadda yadda" on everything. Maybe my explanations are imprecise and naive, my bad. I'm not lecturing the 101 on quest design. But from my own viewpoint as a veteran MMO player, I tried to give you examples.

Also:

There is more lore and plot development in WoW leading up to Vancleef than ive seen in the entirety of Aion. All books are not equal because they are books, all grinds are not equal because they involve grinding, equivocating them as being so is a paltry defense. The world is a grinding "race track" with one route from point A-B in 99% the cases. This is also ignoring that most WoW gives plot lines to each race, each has a unique beginning and 1-10 reveals huge plot points that are touched upon all the way to 60.

This.

[Nebu]

(not to mention brillance that's Stranglethorn Vale, as fondly remembered by Bartle)

Thanks for that link.  It was an interesting read and a reminder of just how many things Blizzard has done well. 

[tmp]

That's green, right? right?

[Nebu]

That's green, right? right?

I loved STV, Nagrand, and Shalozar basin.  They were some of my favorite zones of any MMO I've ever played (as well as Ungoro crater... loved the land of the lost references!). STV was even more fun on a pvp server.  

Not green.  

As a frame of reference you have to understand that I played MUDs for years before playing MMO's.  I remember playing EQ for the first time standing in front of Kelethin and being in total awe.  I played that game for years in the first person. 

[Zane0]

There is more lore and plot development in WoW leading up to Vancleef than ive seen in the entirety of Aion.

I played WoW for four years. I couldn't tell you the first thing about Vancleef.

[tmp]

Not green.  

Ohh. I asked because Lum had an alternative view at it, one which i tend to agree with more, personally. I guess it's just down to the horses for courses thing, then.

[Xanthippe]

NCSoft isn't even putting a dent into the Aion kinah farmers.  Prices down around $13/million now.  

I still see the same bots around day after day - although I can now report up to 10 per day (what's with the limit?).

[Pennilenko]

I am disappointed that I spent money on this game and I liked Vanguard.

[Xanthippe]

Participated in my first fortress defense and fortress offense last night.

A Balaur Carrier disgorged a bunch of level 40 elites, which took our fort in just a few minutes.

So our force took the nearby Elyos fort.

It was fun, didn't disconnect once, although many people did.  At level 30, I could do 1 point of damage vs. the fort boss, so instead of that, I focused on killing the Elyos force that was trying to kill our guys.

I very much like the battles in this game.

[Nebu]

Not green.  

Ohh. I asked because Lum had an alternative view at it, one which i tend to agree with more, personally. I guess it's just down to the horses for courses thing, then.

I don't think that I've read Lum's view.  Being that I usually side with Lum, I may find it more to my liking.  

Thanks for the link.

EDIT: Yes.  Lum nailed it.  I still enjoyed the zones a great deal, but I clearly see the flaws that Lum is pointing to.  Perhaps I'm looking back with Rose colored glasses. 

[Morfiend]

Thats odd. I very much enjoyed STV, but then I was Horde. In fact I think STV was one of my favorite zones. Although Bartle got one thing really wrong.

It's the first zone in which Alliance and Horde characters come into regular contact with each other — more significant on PvP servers than on non-PvP servers.

If you are Alliance, this is your first time coming in to PVP. If you are Horde, you have recently come out of Hillsbrad, which is the most lopsided zone, what with having level 22 to 30 quests for Horde and level 30 to 35 quests for alliance. This leads to the Horde being slaughtered in Hillsbrad, and then finally getting a chance for some even level PVP in STV.

/derail