Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[Falconeer]

Lineage 2 is a good game.

Anyway, on Aion, the thing with mob tapping is that MUCH of the "endgame PvEvP" is based on fighting for raids, and that means fighting for raidbosses WHILE fighting other players. A mechanic you people here don't like but we Asians love, so respect or shush.

The problem I see in this is when players from your SAME faction steal your mobs, as there's nothing you can do (with the actual mechanics) to prevent that or even retaliate. This is a MAJOR, MAJOR flaw.
But players of the opposing factions? Yes it's a feature, and yes it adds to the gameplay.

[Shatter]

Yeah but the underlying problem is whats the greater evil?  If you want to play an MMO you have the choice of the following:

1)  NA companies that launch half complete games where Dev's ignore the general public demands for things that need fixing long after launch where months later the game populations dwindle to 1/10 what they started with.  
2)  Korean/Asian games that are at least complete(for the most part) with game mechanics that arent necessarily ideal, in other words not a perfect game but at least it works and doesnt run like ass
3)  WOW
4)  Nothng

For me I tired of WOW a year ago, Im tired of games in category #1, 4 isnt an option so I choose #2(the poop choice).  

[Modern Angel]

4 isnt an option

Why isn't this an option? I don't get this. I get the idea of being in love with what MMOs could be. Why that translates into maintaining a sub to at least one at all times even if the game isn't particularly swell and you could be playing something that's engaging and complete of a single/small multiplayer variety is beyond me.

Falc: It's almost like there's an easy solution to this tagging problem. Like a flag they could use... a binary flag... if it's not fixed it's because they don't want it to be fixed or it's not a priority. That should be a gigantic red flag.

[Bzalthek]

4 isnt an option

Why isn't this an option? I don't get this. I get the idea of being in love with what MMOs could be. Why that translates into maintaining a sub to at least one at all times even if the game isn't particularly swell and you could be playing something that's engaging and complete of a single/small multiplayer variety is beyond me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I maintain an MMO subscription at all times due to monetary reasons.  I can't afford to buy single player games that end quickly and have limited replay value.  MMOs almost always have something to do, especially if you play casually.

[Shatter]

4 isnt an option

Why isn't this an option? I don't get this. I get the idea of being in love with what MMOs could be. Why that translates into maintaining a sub to at least one at all times even if the game isn't particularly swell and you could be playing something that's engaging and complete of a single/small multiplayer variety is beyond me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I maintain an MMO subscription at all times due to monetary reasons.  I can't afford to buy single player games that end quickly and have limited replay value.  MMOs almost always have something to do, especially if you play casually.

This.  Ive played MMO's for 11 years and playing a single player game feels empty to me now, like a BJ without a happy ending.  This is why after I left WOW a year ago I started playing MMO's I hadnt tried before that had been out for some time, at times I subbed to 2 games.  I used to play RPG games when I was younger but since I got into MMO's I prefer to play them, preferably PvP as well.  Some of it is the social aspect, I wouldnt be playing WHO if it werent for the people I play with, most of which notably are going to Aion :)

[Draegan]

Re: Mob Tagging

It's a double edged sword as far as griefing is concerned.  On one side you can have someone come up, do more dps, and steal your kill.  On the other you can have some douchebag tag the mob right before you touch it and get full credit.

It sucks both ways.  You can grief people with any system.  However I havn't had anyone try to grief me at all with mob stealing in any of the beta weekends, especially since you can just channel surf.

At least Aion rewards you with experience in the ratio of how much damage you did to the mob.

[Shatter]

Re: Mob Tagging

It's a double edged sword as far as griefing is concerned.  On one side you can have someone come up, do more dps, and steal your kill.  On the other you can have some douchebag tag the mob right before you touch it and get full credit.

It sucks both ways.  You can grief people with any system.  However I havn't had anyone try to grief me at all with mob stealing in any of the beta weekends, especially since you can just channel surf.

At least Aion rewards you with experience in the ratio of how much damage you did to the mob.

/agree.   I played the China OB and now NA beta and have only ever lost about 4 mobs to someone else and these were typically in heavily populated areas(before level 5).  Not hard to move elsewhere or channel hop if its an issue.  IMO if this is a show stopper for someone you need to get the sand out of your vagjayjay. 

[DLRiley]

4 isnt an option

Why isn't this an option? I don't get this. I get the idea of being in love with what MMOs could be. Why that translates into maintaining a sub to at least one at all times even if the game isn't particularly swell and you could be playing something that's engaging and complete of a single/small multiplayer variety is beyond me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I maintain an MMO subscription at all times due to monetary reasons.  I can't afford to buy single player games that end quickly and have limited replay value.  MMOs almost always have something to do, especially if you play casually.

This.  Ive played MMO's for 11 years and playing a single player game feels empty to me now, like a BJ without a happy ending.  This is why after I left WOW a year ago I started playing MMO's I hadnt tried before that had been out for some time, at times I subbed to 2 games.  I used to play RPG games when I was younger but since I got into MMO's I prefer to play them, preferably PvP as well.  Some of it is the social aspect, I wouldnt be playing WHO if it werent for the people I play with, most of which notably are going to Aion :)

I don't think being addicted to grindy pieces of shit is a good thing, but to each their own. I personally don't pay for backward game design, build it right or make it free. Lineage 2 is as much as a good game as EQ1 is, I mean I can find some days where getting punched in the dick is worth paying for.

[Hindenburg]

We've all been there, mate. Frankly, the punch dick thing is getting a bit stale.

I just finally accepted that, pretty as it may be, Aion simply won't be for me. It is for Draegan and Falc, so I might as well let them have their fun. Actually glad that I managed to sneak into beta thanks to strazos. Saved me 30 usd.

[Velorath]

4 isnt an option

Why isn't this an option? I don't get this. I get the idea of being in love with what MMOs could be. Why that translates into maintaining a sub to at least one at all times even if the game isn't particularly swell and you could be playing something that's engaging and complete of a single/small multiplayer variety is beyond me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I maintain an MMO subscription at all times due to monetary reasons.  I can't afford to buy single player games that end quickly and have limited replay value.  MMOs almost always have something to do, especially if you play casually.

Maybe if you're buying single player games right when they come out.  There's a ton of good cheap stuff out there.

[Bzalthek]

I do buy games when the price drops.  I recently picked up Orange Box for 25 bucks, which I thought was an excellent deal considering the mods for Half Life exist and Team Fortress II is still actively played.  Also I managed to grab Civilization IV Complete Edition for 15 bucks (after a coupon).  But MMOs still hold the most value for me at 50 cents a day.  I don't feel the grind quite so much as others because I'm not desperately trying to get max level "where the real game begins."

It should be noted that I don't watch TV anymore, so I don't have a very passive access to entertainment and reading you guys snark at each other only lasts so long.

[Modern Angel]

Not hard to move elsewhere or channel hop if its an issue.  IMO if this is a show stopper for someone you need to get the sand out of your vagjayjay. 

I refuse to fight with a game's mechanics anymore to have fun. If I'm playing I'm not moving or channel hopping. And don't say vagjayjay. It makes you look even more retarded than you already do playing a game about androgynous angels.

[Lantyssa]

I hop into channel 7 when I load at the start.  The difference in population from 1 and 2 to seven is staggering.

[ghost]

Lineage 2 is a good game.

I usually agree with you, but no, it isn't.

[Senses]

So if we we're talking about skiing and I said, "Man I love skiiing, its so much fun!" Then one of you came in here and said, "I hate snow, and cold, and I hate wearing coats, oh and also I really cant stand the color white, and everyone who skiis is such a jackass it makes me want to puke."  My reaction would be, don't go skiing then.  For some reason though, when it comes to MMO's, people basically discredit and complain about every single thing that makes an mmo an mmo and instead of telling you, "Go do something else," we sit here and banter back and forth for pages and pages.  Has it occurred to some of you that despite what you might think about yourself, you really just hate MMoRPGS?  I don't mean to troll but cmon, there is a list a mile long of all the basics of MMO design that you guys hate and even though you occasionally admit that WoW does everything right, you wouldn't be caught dead playing WoW because of all the asshats.  Maybe its time to get a new hobby.

[Draegan]

So if we we're talking about skiing and I said, "Man I love skiiing, its so much fun!" Then one of you came in here and said, "I hate snow, and cold, and I hate wearing coats, oh and also I really cant stand the color white, and everyone who skiis is such a jackass it makes me want to puke."  My reaction would be, don't go skiing then.  For some reason though, when it comes to MMO's, people basically discredit and complain about every single thing that makes an mmo an mmo and instead of telling you, "Go do something else," we sit here and banter back and forth for pages and pages.  Has it occurred to some of you that despite what you might think about yourself, you really just hate MMoRPGS?  I don't mean to troll but cmon, there is a list a mile long of all the basics of MMO design that you guys hate and even though you occasionally admit that WoW does everything right, you wouldn't be caught dead playing WoW because of all the asshats.  Maybe its time to get a new hobby.

It's been like this for ages.  People want something new and awesome but they have no idea what that new and awesome is but they want it now.

[kondratti]

I don't mean to troll but cmon, there is a list a mile long of all the basics of MMO design that you guys hate and even though you occasionally admit that WoW does everything right, you wouldn't be caught dead playing WoW because of all the asshats.  Maybe its time to get a new hobby.

I love the bit where they pick apart a new game and say that some basic feature sucks (like travel in WAR), and dont realise that WoW has 11 minute griffon rides which are worse than any other MMO I have played.  Yet WoW somehow gets the Robot Jesus stamp of approval, merely because the armchair designers wont explain why their oh so very right opinion doesnt apply to all MMOs... just merely to the one they are hating on today.

[Hawkbit]

It's really not a very good comparison.  It's hard to fuck up skiing as a designer.  Even with minimal slopes you've still got a lodge with some coffee, beer and bunnies.  

MMO design though, it's entirely too easy to sit back and watch the whole thing burn.  Countless times in the past 10 (ok, maybe 5 really) years we see designers making the same jackass mistakes that we know are going to suck.  Hell, some of them have been told directly by us that they need to make simple changes to ensure fun and success in their game.  And each and every time they refuse to step away from the 'vision' they have (or maybe it's too late in the development cycle, which means you've got bad testers).  It's akin to being a writer without an editor.

This industry seriously needs an Alpha/Beta/QA union.  

[DLRiley]

You've missed the skii'ing is fun and doesn't require obsessive compulsive tendencies to enjoy  . People are more interested in what mmo's could be Massive Multiplayer Online Games then what they currently are Massive Multiplayer Online MUDS. It doesn't help that the industry advertises itself with each new mmo as the former and not the latter. The reason why we have pages upon pages of discussion on an obvious dead horse is simply because for every 1 generic to the tit diku that does moderately well, there will be 4-6 others that will launch and die. So until devs learn not to revive dead horses, we have every right to beat on them.

[tmp]

It's hard to fuck up skiing as a designer.

It's easy. You make the routes shared, and leave it to natural douchebags to fuck it up for everyone else.

[Kageru]

I could see choosing to have contested raid mobs being un-tappable as a design choice, but that mechanic being applied to XP mobs is poor design. Even with raid mobs it doesn't seem to be needed because the easiest way to interfere with the other teams should be to go over and kill them not engage in a DPS race on a PvE target.

[Register]

Re: Mob Tagging

It's a double edged sword as far as griefing is concerned.  On one side you can have someone come up, do more dps, and steal your kill.  On the other you can have some douchebag tag the mob right before you touch it and get full credit.

It sucks both ways.  You can grief people with any system.  However I havn't had anyone try to grief me at all with mob stealing in any of the beta weekends, especially since you can just channel surf.

At least Aion rewards you with experience in the ratio of how much damage you did to the mob.

The system of giving loot rights to the highest damage done - doesn't it strongly discourage people from playing healers/tanks?

Also, since those of your same faction cannot attack you, doesn't this mechanic encourage more kill stealing from your allies?

So what is the advantage of this mechanic? If its there just to provide a means for pvepvp raiding contest over boss mobs, then I still think its unnecessary - why not just give the boss mob lots of hit points, and make it mandatory for the attackers to wipe the original raiders before they can steal the raid boss? i.e. raid boss untags after earlier raid get wiped due to being attacked by others.

[tmp]

The system of giving loot rights to the highest damage done - doesn't it strongly discourage people from playing healers/tanks?

Also, since those of your same faction cannot attack you, doesn't this mechanic encourage more kill stealing from your allies?

Giving the loot rights to person who hits the mob first has similar effect, as it strongly encourages playing classes with ranged, instant damage ability. And it equally encourages 'stealing from your allies'.

So they're pretty right either way to go about it sucks about the same. So there's little point in bashing the game picks one way over the other. At least their approach still allows the player to gain some xp from the kill, relative to how much they damaged the mob. Not sure how that works in the systems where the mob is locked on first hit.

[DLRiley]

The damage based system allows two opposing groups to ignore each other and race to kill the boss. Play tested in korea first.

[tmp]

So, the PvP component is optional rather than mandatory if both sides feel like it? Isn't that something you'd be happy about?

[Modern Angel]

I love the bit where they pick apart a new game and say that some basic feature sucks (like travel in WAR), and dont realise that WoW has 11 minute griffon rides which are worse than any other MMO I have played.  Yet WoW somehow gets the Robot Jesus stamp of approval, merely because the armchair designers wont explain why their oh so very right opinion doesnt apply to all MMOs... just merely to the one they are hating on today.

We'll chat a month after release when you've unsubbed from Aion.

[Draegan]

Re: Mob Tagging

It's a double edged sword as far as griefing is concerned.  On one side you can have someone come up, do more dps, and steal your kill.  On the other you can have some douchebag tag the mob right before you touch it and get full credit.

It sucks both ways.  You can grief people with any system.  However I havn't had anyone try to grief me at all with mob stealing in any of the beta weekends, especially since you can just channel surf.

At least Aion rewards you with experience in the ratio of how much damage you did to the mob.

The system of giving loot rights to the highest damage done - doesn't it strongly discourage people from playing healers/tanks?

Also, since those of your same faction cannot attack you, doesn't this mechanic encourage more kill stealing from your allies?

So what is the advantage of this mechanic? If its there just to provide a means for pvepvp raiding contest over boss mobs, then I still think its unnecessary - why not just give the boss mob lots of hit points, and make it mandatory for the attackers to wipe the original raiders before they can steal the raid boss? i.e. raid boss untags after earlier raid get wiped due to being attacked by others.

Any mob worth getting loot from is done in a group where as a healer or a tank will have the dps to back them up.  I played a cleric all weekend long.  I had no issues.  If you have someone following you around fucking with you, no sort of different tagging system is going to stop them from doing so.

No one has brought up any game changing terrible design features.  Tagging system? It's shitty both ways if someone wants to fuck with you.  It doesn't happen very often anyway.
PVP Ranking system?  That grind or competition is not even necessary since character advancement that is equivalent is available to everyone.

You can gripe about the leveling curve.  I don't think it's terrible, but it isn't the fastest.
You can gripe about the UI and keybinds.  They need improvement.
The chat system can use a little sprucing up.

But really?  The tagging system?  

Still you can gripe about the lack of true customization for your character other than manastones and stigmas.
Still you can gripe about the use of animations that screw with the fluidity of your character.
Still you can gripe about how classes grow as they level, some are overpowered some are weak due to stupid design.
Still you can gripe how a Spiritmaster's pets can't fly in a game that is built around flying for PVP.

You can even gripe with the voice acting:
English Voice Overs

Really the tagging system though?

There is a lot of little shit that I would do differently.  They've actually fixed a lot of the above in the three patches that are not being tested right now on the NA/EU beta servers.  But you know what? It's a fun game.  The classes are balanced, the combat is responsive, the game looks good as you play it.  There are many avenues to improve your character.  You have open world dungeons and instances.  You have raid targets and sieges.  But I guess the only crime is that it's a DIKU to some people.  Everyone can have their opinion and be biased by it.

[Ceryse]

When I bitched about the grind I didn't entirely mean "grind" as in sitting and killing mobs until I feel like puking or anything. I've been in for two beta weekends now and have a Cleric at 28, Gladiator at 16 and a Assassin, Templar and Spiritmaster at 11-12. I should have clarified that I was more talking about the pacing and feel of the game. It feels like a grind. Its not that bad, even on my Cleric, until about 24/25. There's an increase in mob health and damage around then, and the Cleric's only increase in damage output is a Chain 3 skill that only "procs" about 15%-20% of the time. When it procs? It takes about a third to a half of the mob's health down (it literally does about 3x more damage than any of my other skills). So, my kill speed goes down and I start taking more damage and things bog downa  bit.

Still, only a bit worse than WoW at release; I'll agree, though I hear the 40s are considered grindy even by most players from Lineage and such. 1.5 might help there.

But then you throw gathering and crafting in there. I leveled Alchemy to 140, Cooking to 130ish and Armoursmithing to 160. The pacing for gathering and crafting sucks ass, plain and simple. Gathering should take a little less time and not be quite as much of a pain to level (sometimes it takes me 20-30 gathers to increase my gathering skill by 1, yay!) and crafting? Christ; it actively encourages afking and alt tabbing (though sometimes it wont craft when you're alt tabbed; dumb bug). I would have crafting sessions of 3-4 hours sometimes. I can live with the failure, but they need to speed up the process of crafting. When I smelted 300ish titanium ores it took me a touch over 60 minutes. Seriously. If nothing else, this is what pisses me off the most about the game.

This dramatically increases the pacing of the game from not bad to atrocious. Then there's all the reagents (refining stones can go fuck themselves until there's a way to morph one kind into another [say from accessory refinery stones to armour refining stones of the same level) and stuff which needlessly clogs up one's space until you make a mule or two and start mailing shit to yourself.

Its a grind-centric MMO from a design stand-point and while probably not even close to the level of grind found elsewhere in Asian MMOs (the default reply to grind comments is either 'go back to WoW' or 'could be worse, in Lineage...) and its not bad; until you bring in crafting's pacing. When you're grinding mobs you're at least participating in the game. When you're crafting its time to go watch a movie. Worse yet, a lot of the Work Orders are long enough to make you want to do something/anything else.. but short enough that you have to come back every 8-12 minutes.

I can stomach the shitty UI (what do you mean I can't move everything on the screen as I want? and where's my alliance health bars to whack-a-mole!) and the leveling. I can deal with key crafting components being random drop only from normal mobs with a low drop rate. But the crafting system? Fuck me, I don't have enough movies to deal with that.

Yeah, more than a bit ranty, but it annoyed the hell out of me and it destroys the pacing of the game. Maybe it wont be so bad come retail if we gain rest experience while in Sanctum/Pandemonium crafting. Don't know. I think they should up the experience gained from crafting and gathering, though; just to make it a little less annoying.

As for the rest.. I rarely had a mob stolen from me; I did have numerous times where I and another person hit a mob at the same time. If it was a melee, they would just bring it down (and reasonably so; takes less time for them than breaking off and finding another) and for ranged we usually just had it that whomever got 'aggro' stayed on it, the other would leave and there was never any real bitching about it.

Until we got to bosses in the elite camps; then there was often more than a couple groups fighting over it and being assholes about it.

And once you get into the 20+ areas there's no channel switching (for obvious PvP reasons).

[Falconeer]

Fuck, I hate that English voiceover. This is a low blow. I loved the original alienish casting sounds. I strongly hope there will be an option to have it back.

[Koyasha]

Well, it's a crafting system.  That it sucks is pretty much a given from the moment you say crafting system.  But I do admit Aion's crafting system seems to be on a whole new level of annoying suck, cause it's like they took every other crafting system out there and asked themselves 'how can we make this more annoying, slower, and add in as much annoying randomness as possible?'

Anything worth making seems to be the result of a random proc on a 'normal' item.  So you want a crafted staff that's good for you, you've got to start making a bunch of normal ones and hope that one of them procs into a good one.  And then, some items from what I've researched require multiple 'parts' that are all procs of other crafts.

[ghost]

Yeah, after 2 betas I pretty much anticipate this being on the shelf along side AoC and Warhammer online not too long after I get it.  Both the game and I are lacking:  it lacks fun and I lack time.

[Modern Angel]

If I have to grant that you find a game without  a single new feature (that I can see) is fun then you have to grant me that the tagging system is a gamebreaker for me.

And you are making me hate the game when I'd rather just keep it in shrugging of shoulders with a yawn territory. Fucking Aion fans...

[Ratman_tf]

And each and every time they refuse to step away from the 'vision' they have (or maybe it's too late in the development cycle, which means you've got bad testers).  It's akin to being a writer without an editor.

This industry seriously needs an Alpha/Beta/QA union.  

Hey now. We just report the bugs. There are people In Charge who make the kinds of decisions that make QA look... poorly.

[tmp]

You can even gripe with the voice acting:
English Voice Overs

Isn't that rip from Sailor Moon dub?

[Shatter]

Ive opted to roll a femtoon for this game since any mantoon will be shemale anyhow