Bad Groups

[Shrike]

Levelling a Prot Warrior at the moment but I daren't go dungeon running in case I meet people like you lot!    I don't take unconstructive criticism well and the last time I said "bear with me, I'm still new at this" half the group left.

Might help when I feel more confident about my rotation.

Really, the only way to seriously learn how is to go in and do it. I've been kinda nervous on my protection paladin after the changes, but she's doing OK. It's been hard getting used to the slow priority system they have, when they were pretty much GCD locked before. DKs haven't changed quite as much, but the multi-cooldown blood tanking style also takes some adjusting to. They have an awful lot of toys to play with, which requires careful deliberation! Well, not really, but it can lead to the occasional brain-lock while still learning. I can't comment on warriors, since I haven't looked at either of mine since well before 4.0. I've taken to marking targets again. Ignore at your peril.

As for running as dps, well, if the tank speaks up, personally I'll cut him a lot of slack. If you're like the dumbass the other night that tries to pull six groups right off the bat in H-OK with 32k hps (and not a word to anyone), then, yeah, you're going to catch a rash of shit with bells on.

[Fordel]

To be fair, lowbie tanking is mostly about being in the right stance/form/whatever. There isn't that much to screw up for the first like, 40-50 levels.



-fake edit-

I pretty much love almost everything about new Prot paladin tanking. I was worried no lol-consecrate spam was going to be bad, but new Hammer of the Righteous easily covers that gap and I finally have SNAP AE aggro in holy wrath. What luxury!

[Minvaren]

Levelling a Prot Warrior at the moment but I daren't go dungeon running in case I meet people like you lot!    I don't take unconstructive criticism well and the last time I said "bear with me, I'm still new at this" half the group left.

Believe me, I hear you...   

Best thing I found was just to mark stuff, and plow through things as fast as you can, presuming that the healer is keeping up (and has mana).  Seems to cut down on the flak from the peanut gallery if they're always in combat.

[kildorn]

Levelling a Prot Warrior at the moment but I daren't go dungeon running in case I meet people like you lot!    I don't take unconstructive criticism well and the last time I said "bear with me, I'm still new at this" half the group left.

Might help when I feel more confident about my rotation.

At low levels you'll think you suck if the group is off DPSing completely arbitrary targets in the pull. Plus if you have heirloom DPS bursting damage all over the place. Other than that, threat seems fine (I can't pull off my tanks if I give them even a 1% damage lead in time so far)

[Sheepherder]

I pretty much love almost everything about new Prot paladin tanking. I was worried no lol-consecrate spam was going to be bad, but new Hammer of the Righteous easily covers that gap and I finally have SNAP AE aggro in holy wrath. What luxury!

What level?

Because at 80 DPS seems to overtake threat generation by a fair margin.  Though some of the initial insanity resulting from Arcane mages realizing that 17k DPS is well within their grasp may have been tempered by the fact that they've also realized that they have serious repair bills now.

[Merusk]

Low level prot pallies are broken as can be.  Running my LOLOP mage through outlands right now and I've seen level 66 prot pallies avenger shield nearly 1/4 of the HP off of single mobs in Anuchdown.  The pally tank has been the top DPS in all dungeons I've had one in since the patch. It's crazy town.

[Ingmar]

Pretty sure Fordel is talking about at 85, the bastard.

[Fordel]

Yea, though my experience is hardly exhaustive either, far more focused on my druid and it's terrible casting speed now. 


If Paladins are having issue with AE threat at 80, I'm guessing the lack of Inquisition is to blame.

[Rendakor]

My Prot Pally held AoE threat fine in ICC 10 at 80. Single target was a little shaky on a couple fights, but mostly due to mechanics.

[Sheepherder]

My Prot Pally held AoE threat fine in ICC 10 at 80. Single target was a little shaky on a couple fights, but mostly due to mechanics.

Vengeance stacks faster under heavy damage, and stacks higher with better gear.  Trash pulling in 5 mans seem a little dicey at 80.

I'm actually sort of curious as to whether a prot warrior can DPS at 85, via vigilance.  That might be sort of cool.

[Ingmar]

Hard to say, but we also get rage 50% faster when attacking something that's hitting someone else so that will help too.

[Fordel]

What did they do to Vigilance? I haven't kept up to date on The Warriors due to their constant baaaaawing.

[Sheepherder]

Instead of transferring threat it stacks vengeance at a decreased rate (20%?), and at 80 it seems that tanks are actually capable of pretty competitive DPS with full stacked vengeance.

[Fordel]

Man, that sounds totally exploitable and yea, full vengeful tanks do pretty insane DPS.

[lesion]

Had a paladin tank in HoR without Righteous Fury on for the first wipe. I pointed it out, he ignored me, I specced blood and tanked the first half...while he tanked the first half. Someone else pointed out missing RF a few times and he finally realized, said he was dumb, turned it on. I spec back to frost. Two more wipes. I love bad groups.

[Shrike]

Had a paladin tank in HoR without Righteous Fury on for the first wipe. I pointed it out, he ignored me, I specced blood and tanked the first half...while he tanked the first half. Someone else pointed out missing RF a few times and he finally realized, said he was dumb, turned it on. I spec back to frost. Two more wipes. I love bad groups.

I did this last night. Forgot RF, that is. After playing with my offspec a bit, I went back to my primary spec and since I always run as protection and think nothing of it...forgot to turn RF on. Blissfully unaware, I hit the elemental lords, and, man, did I have aggro problems. Go figure.

The hell of it is, I was mostly able to hold aggro, but only with a whole lot of taunting (go go, 4pc T9 bonus). After two runs of this shit, I'm thinking, gee, I have to be missing something. Yep. Sure was. Next two runs were pretty uneventful, aside from the 277 hunter that kept me on my...toes/hooves. Also, after doing Princess about 5 times, I'm coming to the conclusion I might need a tanking HUD for the paladin. Just too much going on to keep track of, what with assorted cooldowns and whatever the boss/environmental effects might be.

[Ginaz]

What is it with ranged classes, esp. mages, that like to stand within melee ranged of mobs when its not required?  As a healer, they are an unnecessary burden when they do it.  I challenged a mage once on this and he called me a noob for not knowing how to heal properly, even though we did the instance without any wipes.  The rest of group bitched at him too because he kept pulling mobs and bosses.

[Ironwood]

What is it with people who complain in this thread without taking the required action ?

If your Mage jumps into Melee range and takes damage, or pulls, he dies.  You explain gently why he died and that he oughtn't to do it again, or he'll die again.  Because of the whole, 'you're not healing/tanking him'.

Do us all a favour and start training the stupid DPS please, because there's an expansion coming.

[Ingmar]

Sometimes it is just fun to spam arcane explosion.

[SurfD]

What is it with people who complain in this thread without taking the required action ?

If your Mage jumps into Melee range and takes damage, or pulls, he dies.  You explain gently why he died and that he oughtn't to do it again, or he'll die again.  Because of the whole, 'you're not healing/tanking him'.

Do us all a favour and start training the stupid DPS please, because there's an expansion coming.

Given that I never play a healer in groups, I have never had the option to simply let stupid dps die.  However, I do tank alot.  One of my favourite cures for "mele mages" and other Point Blank caster types is mobs that cleave.  I have absolutely no problem turning a mob (or groups of mobs) that cleave right into their faces so they go splat.

[fuser]

[I have absolutely no problem turning a mob (or groups of mobs) that cleave right into their faces so they go splat.

God I love anub'arak for that 

[apocrypha]

There are a few times when you need to be close as a caster or a healer. I'm thinking of the Overseers in UK that charge ranged. If you get in close you don't get charged.

You can tell when you've got good casters/healers in there 'cos they get close for the overseer packs and they back off for the packs which drop the bombs on the ground. It's rare to see people knowing *and* bothering about that these days though.

[Shrike]

Yet another bad tank tale of woe and hilarity. There I was...

Duoing LFD with a friend from work on his DK and me on my shaman (who is back in heroics to recap JP, since I spent too much on gems on my DK...). We get Gundrak. Annoying little instance (silences...we hates them...), but normally quick and generally no drama. Until now. Group is shaman, DK, huntard, disc priest and...our tank. He's a DK with 32k hps. Technically, this shouldn't really matter, but as a practical matter it's a bad sign.

I jump in the water, the hunter is already at the bottom, my friend is on Skype trying to drink beer and mouse navigate (and failing--he hits the ramp 2/3rds of the way down), the priest is nowhere in sight, and the DK jumps the first group soon as I get out of the water. Uh oh. He's 1/2 hit points in about 2 sec, and I make a command decision: I'm not healing his dumb ass. Wolf up and it's feets don't fail me now! Group dies horribly, I lounge in the sun in Stormwind. I recall the DK didn't have bone shield up when he (apparently) committed suicide.

Hunter quits. I suggest we do likewise, but it's late and we both really want to get our JP and get out. New hunter (what are the odds?) joins and we reconstitute and our "tank" tries again. He remembers bone shield this time, but seems to be oblivious to the utility of D&D and blood boil. We lose the DK (heh), but the priest is up to it and I end up tanking about half the mobs anyway. Change in tactics: I wait until the tank quits pulling whatthehellever and the priest can actually keep him above 1/2 hps before I jump in. Still pull aggro frequently, but wolves are usually up so that's OK. The tank (re)discovers his BB and D&D buttons so we manage to slop throught the rest of the instance without any more casualities, aside from lost sanity/patience. The beer might have been a good call after all.

This is the third tank in the last few days that seems to think he could pull mulitple groups just because he's a tank, not because he's grossly overgearing the instance. Doesn't bode well for PuGs in Cataclysm, but that writing has been on the wall for some time. This is just the most recent graffiti.

[Lantyssa]

Duoing LFD with a friend from work on his DK and me on my shaman (who is back in heroics to recap JP, since I spent too much on gems on my DK...). We get Gundrak. Annoying little instance (silences...we hates them...), but normally quick and generally no drama. Until now. Group is shaman, DK, huntard, disc priest and...our tank. He's a DK with 32k hps. Technically, this shouldn't really matter, but as a practical matter it's a bad sign.

32k for a DK in a level 80 heroic is completely reasonable. (note: based on 3.x values)

[Paelos]

32k is fine. Gundrak is a heroic nightmare due only to the first and last boss for pugs.

[Ingmar]

Seriously, at release we all did those instances with 22-25k hp tanks. 32k is luxury.

[Rendakor]

The thing is, you can have 32k hp as a dps now, which means when you see 32k hp on a "tank" you have to wonder if they're even specced for tanking at all. And if they aren't the run will be painful because, you know, crits.

[kildorn]

The thing is, you can have 32k hp as a dps now, which means when you see 32k hp on a "tank" you have to wonder if they're even specced for tanking at all. And if they aren't the run will be painful because, you know, crits.

Barring silly levels of gear, they normalized HP a bit. Combine that with a lot of Stam on DPS gear and a non raid geared pug tank, and you have easy situations where "who has the highest HP" isn't how you pick out the tank.

Just right click, inspect, check their talent tree. Seriously, you will have a lot more fun with a low geared tank in heroics as a healer. ICC25 geared tanks in heroic instances are absolutely boring. 25k hp palatanks in half blues who just hit 80 a week ago? Hell yes, I have spells to cast!

[Paelos]

ICC25 geared tanks in heroic instances are absolutely boring.

This is true. I finally had my healer tell me to take off my chestpiece because he was bored two months ago in heroics.

[Rendakor]

While an undergeared tank might be fun for a healer, it's a nightmare for a dps. You feel like a jerk pulling aggro, but the alternative is auto attack, alt tab.

[Azazel]

I stopped caring when 4.0 hit. Occasionally I had some dipshit bitch at me not not doing enough DPS, but these were usually the same dipshits (rogues and DKs, mostly) who would pull agro off the tank and then get squished, while I snickered to myself.

[Shrike]

I stopped caring when 4.0 hit. Occasionally I had some dipshit bitch at me not not doing enough DPS, but these were usually the same dipshits (rogues and DKs, mostly) who would pull agro off the tank and then get squished, while I snickered to myself.

In very real sense, I don't much care myself. I've discovered I can do over 3k dps while auto-attacking (at least before shaman haste got nerfed). It's enough to finish any heroic effectively. The problem is I LIKE playing my character and doing it the way it's meant to be done. That means 6k dps in a 5man. Most tanks aren't up to it these days.

The hit point thing in and of itself doesn't matter all that much. I've had T9 tanks with 30k hps do just fine. Hell, you should do fine in blues at 25k, but your dps isn't on that level. It's an indicator he might not be as dialed in as he needs to be to a) avoid crits, and b) hold fucking aggro. I can only spam wind shear so much. Then there's the small matter of dumbass trying to pull three groups with the healer somewhere near the zone in. Situational awareness fail--not good in a tank. A lot of these guys are going to be queuing for instances in Cata and it's going to be ugly. I rely on this stuff quite a bit since my guild is on somewhat different hours than I am. It's going to be interesting times...

[Lantyssa]

In very real sense, I don't much care myself. I've discovered I can do over 3k dps while auto-attacking (at least before shaman haste got nerfed). It's enough to finish any heroic effectively. The problem is I LIKE playing my character and doing it the way it's meant to be done. That means 6k dps in a 5man. Most tanks aren't up to it these days.

You LIKE playing your character the way it's meant to be done, which is fair enough, but with 6k dps that would be ICC raids.  That kind of damage output is getting into 2-3 hits on trash territory.  It's not the tank being out of place, it's mudflation making you be out of place.

[SurfD]

The thing is, you can have 32k hp as a dps now, which means when you see 32k hp on a "tank" you have to wonder if they're even specced for tanking at all. And if they aren't the run will be painful because, you know, crits.

Crit immunity is now Talented for all tanks.  No more defense to worry about.  Unless your tank is decently lower level then whatever he is tanking, a tank should never be crit.

[Selby]

Crit immunity is now Talented for all tanks.  No more defense to worry about.  Unless your tank is decently lower level then whatever he is tanking, a tank should never be crit.

Yup.  Really the only way to spot the questionable tanks is to look and see if they have "DPS" plate vs. "tank" plate, which now mainly consists of how much stamina\dodge\parry the gear has (and honestly that's not as much of an issue as it was in the +def gear days).  Def gear is long gone now (good riddance) so provided the tank spec'd properly and meets the expertise and hit soft caps, they should be *okay* for heroics.