Bad Groups

[Simond]

I got kicked from a pug LFG HHoS, as a tank, for asking people not to pull mobs.  Call me crazy, but thats the tank's job, imo.

How to deal with that problem as a tank: "You pull it, you tank it. PS: I have instant queues - how long did you have to wait?"






And SKs were the best pullers in EQ, anyway.

[Merusk]

A hunter pulling MC was a lot easier than the tank.  We had better range, mark - all the things to prep the pull.  I didn't even dps - I would just go get things to kill for the raid. 

Pulling MC was some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW.  I had our raid group down to a 1 3/4 hour clear time.  The healers and mages bitched a lot, but the response was always the same from the raid leader and tanks; "Sit out of combat one pull and drink instead of worrying about meters, you idiot."   

[Arinon]

We had a hunter pull MC like that for us as well.  With the same caster/healer bitching.  It was awesome!

[Ginaz]

I got kicked from a pug LFG HHoS, as a tank, for asking people not to pull mobs.  Call me crazy, but thats the tank's job, imo.

How to deal with that problem as a tank: "You pull it, you tank it. PS: I have instant queues - how long did you have to wait?"






And SKs were the best pullers in EQ, anyway.

Yeah, it only took about 10 secs to get back into a dungeon.  And it wasn't bosses that they were pulling, it was groups of trash.  I'd be tanking one group then someone would pull another.

[Shrike]

Well, since 4.0 an old song is becoming way popular again: bad tanks. Really bad tanks. Seems like anyone in plate now thinks they can slap on a shield or flip into blood presence and be a tank (or at least avoid the queue). Ummm...no.

No particular example stands out, but it's been a week of tanks with fewer hit points than the plate dps, tanks that fold up under the first hits they take (see hit points), and tanks that can't even begin to hold aggro. On trash, this isn't usually too much of a problem, but on bosses it sure is. My DK is back to running instances in her shiny new t10 tank set in unholy presence. DPS kinda sucks (at least compared to her normal frost spec), but at least she can pick up the slack when the 28k hps PuG tank inevitably screws the pooch. The hell of it is, the hps thing in and of itself doesn't (or shouldn't) really matter, but the fact these people aren't set up to tank with enchants, reforging, and actual working knowledge of tanking is making PuGs painful again.

I try to think of it as training for the coming rude awakening of Cataclysm dungeons. 

[dd0029]

I don't know what to say about the tank thing.  Some are straight up bad tanks, but lots are just blue geared tanks.  A "poorly" geared tank I run across now has around 28k hp which is what I recall rolling with at the beginning of the expansion.  They just can't really compete with the T10 geared DPS for aggro, particularly mages, shaman and warriors.  My never raided mage just railed out 12k DPS in VH.  My last arcane blast crit for 48k.  That was only with a couple of cooldowns. 

And some are confused old tanks.  It took me a while to get a handle on tanking with my paladin again until I learned that Holy Wrath is my friend. 

I am seeing bad everything lately.  Sub 1k DPS is showing up again.  Managed to die after not one but two Poison Nova's in Gundrak.  I can hardly remember the last time I saw a Poison Nova, much less two of them.  Seeing many enhancement shaman, feral druids and arms warriors again. 

Rogues and hunters seem to have the most variation in DPS, from very good to terrible with rogues mostly at the terrible range.  What happened there?

[Rasix]

From what I've read, combat is broken.  Lack of armor pen means it's not competitive anymore.   I've tried assasination builds and subtlety builds on holiday bosses but that isn't a good test as they really die too quickly.  Subtlety is a mess.  There's just too much going on with it; reminds me of how people described feral DPS.  Assassination isn't changed much and ramps up a whole lot better.  Plus, it's not as badly hurt by armor pen. 

Granted, this is mostly limited experience plus reading forum whines.  I won't be doing instance runs until the expansion pack, as there's just no point.  Heirlooms cost too much and why upgrade gear that's going to be good for like 2 hours post Dec 7. 

[pants]

Rogues and hunters seem to have the most variation in DPS, from very good to terrible with rogues mostly at the terrible range.  What happened there?

Don't know about rogues, but for hunters having the change from mana to focus is a big deal.  It really changes how we do dps now - if someone hasn't been paying attention to the best way to do shot rotations since 4.0.1, their dps will suck.

[Sjofn]

My DPS on my hunter is terrible because I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet and I haven't felt motivated to learn (I'm leveling a new one in Cataclysm, I'll just learn then). My rogue's been fine, because he was assassination to start with and like others have said, that changed the least out of everyone. I haven't really tanked much because I don't feel like dealing with DPSers who will undoubtedly not give a fuck about aggro while I try to figure out what, if anything, I have to do differently. I've healed some on my paladin. I <3 healing on my paladin now.

[Ashamanchill]

Bad tanks are actually why I refuse to do dps much. Sub optimal dps makes the intance a bit longer, but a bad tank makes it brutal.

Also I have a friend who just came back, having been gone since about the end of BC. Long story short, he leveled up very quickly, became geared and now heals like 10 dungeons a day. He claims that Dk tanks, are the WORST. It has gotten tot he point where he leaves a group if he has one.

[Merusk]

I'd agree with that.  It's been my experience that most Dks never played a tank class prior to the DK.  You're going to find a lot more of bad ones there than among the other 3 who probably flirted with it at some point and learned some stuff.   Plus, we still feel squishy AND are having resource management problems.  I know I hit -50% a few times on the Heroic COS I did last week. 

As a guy in T10 who kinda knows what he's doing (I'm not a MT by a long shot but I've OT'd plenty well in enough raids) that shouldn't happen.  Shit's dying too quickly for me to get diseases spread out and spamming Death Strike for the blood shield, which is supposed to be an integral part of DK tanking.  No self-heal, no damage mitigation = squishy tank.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, that was something I noticed but wasn't terribly concerned about at the moment, that DKs just ramp up too slow versus the DPS right now. My only other geared tank is my druid and I usually heal on him. Healing is my "brain off" job. 

[K9]

Bood can tank well enough without disease I thought? I saw GC post a comment about how they weren't too bothered about diseaseless Blood as a tanking playstyle as tanks already have enough to micromanage without diseases.

[DraconianOne]

Shit's dying too quickly for me to get diseases spread out and spamming Death Strike for the blood shield, which is supposed to be an integral part of DK tanking.  No self-heal, no damage mitigation = squishy tank.

Diseaseless blood tanking:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/11/02/lichborne-the-lowdown-on-diseaseless-blood-tanking/
http://pwnwear.com/forum/diseaseless-blood-t710.html

[lesion]

I've found that DnD/BB are good enough on groups unless DPS isn't assisting off you, but with taunt/grip/snare that's pretty trivial too. Defensive cooldowns are pretty short so you can rotate one on almost every pull and avoid the initial damage spike (though you generally want to use DS after losing a big chunk of health).

[Sjofn]

It didn't even occur to me to try diseaseless tanking. But ... I'm not really interested in doing so. I might as well just be some other tank as far as I'm concerned, one who can actually use all their shit without it being ... troublesome.

Luckily I have three other tanks sitting at 80 that I can level instead! 

[lesion]

Well, absolutes are short-sighted. You want diseases up for any mobs that don't die within a few seconds, if only to help your healer after you get wailed on during the pull. At a certain gear level this probably becomes trivial, but at that point you've gone plaid anyway. Plus if you group with similarly-geared DPS you'll want diseases for extra threat, even if it's not as fire-and-forget as it was before the patch.

[Merusk]

How the fuck did I miss Death strike not scaling with the number of diseases out..  Goddamn noob moment there on my part.  Thanks for the link.

[Selby]

I'll be honest, I've PUGed on my DK tank after the patch and played with friends.  I don't have that much of a problem unless I've got some seriously high DPS people all not assisting and on different targets, but then that's the way it was before the patch too.  Raid trash and bosses aren't an issue either.

[Rendakor]

The only issue I have with DK tanks is in heroics with good dps, you won't always have D&D up for every pack and holding AoE threat without it is kinda rough.

[fuser]

Speaking of under geared tanks. My warrior is built fury and I have been dabbling in tanking again at 80(I leveled from 15-76 just by tanking LFD in the past month) with some really sub-par gear. I'm sitting around 31k unbuffed hp in a mix of fury/tanking set that I'm building.

So I hit up LFD last night and get a Nexus group. I notice that there's some remarks about my gear and how i'm "someone's idol" and "pro" for the gear I'm wearing. This is all taking place past the first boss where we are pulling non stop and moving quick. Im having no issue with aggro at all but the 3k DPS won't shut the hell up about "hows the int working out". Protector of Frigid Souls, yeah I know its a caster shield but it was better then the blue that everyone passed on for DE a few nights before. Needless to say past the second boss I had enough and started running back to the exit and told them to finish the dungeon on their own or kick me when the cool down is up, I'm not going any further.

I swear to god If you want to bitch about my pulling, my aggro, my hitpoints, not waiting for a healer, it's all fair and have at it. But if your biggest gripe is some crappy shield i'm going to go blind with rage against DPS. This wasn't ICC dungeons, it's the freaking Nexus.

[Selby]

This wasn't ICC dungeons, it's the freaking Nexus.

Didn't you know?  Nexus is srs bsns.

Personally the one thing I hate most as a tank is mouthy DPS, especially when it's over something stupid (which 9 out of 10 times, it is).  I will gladly let them eat it or drop the group.

[Minvaren]

On the plus side, the mouthy DPS is generally too busy typing to move away from the first boss' WW in H Nexus.   

[Paelos]

But if your biggest gripe is some crappy shield i'm going to go blind with rage against DPS. This wasn't ICC dungeons, it's the freaking Nexus.

Quick tip from another tanking warrior: This Shield is light years better for you, costs 70 honor points (1-2 BGs), and can be enchanted with defense if you are lacking in that area. That should help you get over the hump and ditch the shitty shield with Int. They released the arena rating requirements on pvp shields at that level so there's no reason not to just strap one on and kick ass in the dungeons with it.

[apocrypha]

This Shield

Nice tip, thanks. My fresh-80 prot warrior will pick that up asap. Although, with a 3k gs his shield is the least of his problems, it all helps!  

Edit: wrong smiley. But you know what, I'm leaving it anyway.

[Sheepherder]

Shields have armor, lots.  A good one makes a huge difference.

[Paelos]

Shields, chests, legs, helms.

Most important stat upgrades for tanks, in that order.

[SurfD]

Shields, chests, legs, helms.

Most important stat upgrades for tanks, in that order.

Screw that.  It's all about the shoulders.  The more impressive your shoulders look, the better chance people wont even bother inspecting your gear to see if the rest of it sucks.

[Paelos]

Shields, chests, legs, helms.

Most important stat upgrades for tanks, in that order.

Screw that.  It's all about the shoulders.  The more impressive your shoulders look, the better chance people wont even bother inspecting your gear to see if the rest of it sucks.

Heh, good one. I honestly put trinkets and cloaks ahead of shoulders simply because of their general rarity.

[apocrypha]

Screw that.  It's all about the shoulders.  The more impressive your shoulders look, the better chance people wont even bother inspecting your gear to see if the rest of it sucks.

Haha! I tend to go for the "big pieces" (chest, legs) and then replace items in order of crappiness, so it's often trinkets. I've got one of every crafter so I tend to make a bunch of iLvl 200s for any fresh 80 so they're not going into heroics in greens usually.

[DraconianOne]

I've got one of every crafter so I tend to make a bunch of iLvl 200s for any fresh 80 so they're not going into heroics in greens usually.

Be my friend! 

[Azazel]

Bad tanks are actually why I refuse to do dps much. Sub optimal dps makes the intance a bit longer, but a bad tank makes it brutal.

Also I have a friend who just came back, having been gone since about the end of BC. Long story short, he leveled up very quickly, became geared and now heals like 10 dungeons a day. He claims that Dk tanks, are the WORST. It has gotten tot he point where he leaves a group if he has one.

I haven't played much in the last week, and I pretty much only bother with ToC once a day when I do play. Last week we had a shitty shit shit tank who couldn't hold aggro to save his life. His mate (rogue) died, I had aggro, and I had to invis to escape the wipe (and I showed my wife how/where to run out of the instance - is there a way to dismiss mage water pets?)

Once we got in, I told her to keep our DPS slow, but steady. Group wiped again on the Black Knight (how the fuck does that happen?) and the rogue then started bitching to us with "are you using all your cooldowns?" I told him I knew how to run the instance and to shut the fuck up. If we'd been using our cooldowns and DPSing hard we'd have pulled aggro off the tank and died early, just like he did. Fucking moron.
 

[Mnemon]

Well, since 4.0 an old song is becoming way popular again: bad tanks. Really bad tanks. Seems like anyone in plate now thinks they can slap on a shield or flip into blood presence and be a tank (or at least avoid the queue). Ummm...no.

No particular example stands out, but it's been a week of tanks with fewer hit points than the plate dps, tanks that fold up under the first hits they take (see hit points), and tanks that can't even begin to hold aggro. On trash, this isn't usually too much of a problem, but on bosses it sure is. My DK is back to running instances in her shiny new t10 tank set in unholy presence. DPS kinda sucks (at least compared to her normal frost spec), but at least she can pick up the slack when the 28k hps PuG tank inevitably screws the pooch. The hell of it is, the hps thing in and of itself doesn't (or shouldn't) really matter, but the fact these people aren't set up to tank with enchants, reforging, and actual working knowledge of tanking is making PuGs painful again.

I try to think of it as training for the coming rude awakening of Cataclysm dungeons. 

this is probably the biggest down side of the dungeon queue system. you have folks who could careless about tanking and never given a thought to how to do it queuing up as tanks because they get insta-pops that way.

I have a Blood DK and have tanked all the way up from 60, but will take a break from it from time to time and just queue as DPS. Last time I did that we ended up booting the tank because he was basically trying to tank as an undergeared DPS, Dual-wielding warrior and was getting his ass kicked. We would have wiped if I didn't quickly switch to blood midfight and take the aggro off the squishies in the back.

[DraconianOne]

Levelling a Prot Warrior at the moment but I daren't go dungeon running in case I meet people like you lot!    I don't take unconstructive criticism well and the last time I said "bear with me, I'm still new at this" half the group left.

Might help when I feel more confident about my rotation.

[Lantyssa]

I don't judge unless the people I'm playing with suck really, really badly.  If they simply say "I'm learning" or "I'm still getting equipped" or some kind of mea culpa that shows awareness of not being Elune's gift to catassing, then I cut them a lot of slack.

Of course I'm usually too concerned about sucking myself, so I didn't tend to do anything unless it was mostly guildies who already knew all my bountiful flaws yet would still talk to me.