Bad Groups

[Rendakor]

Or are Shadowpriest Sezz'ziz and Nekrum Gutchewer not spawning? If that's the case, I've got no idea.

Yes. Bly and crew stay at the top of the temple, never walk down, and the last wave of the encounter never spawns. I've waited 30m+ for it once, it never fixed. And if they don't walk to the bottom, you can't talk to the goblin; he won't just blow the door from the top of the temple.

[Merusk]

ZF likes to bug out these days on the temple; when I was that level with my last alt it seemed like only a 50% chance for the final wave to spawn. This sucked because it meant you couldn't get to the Chief and thus complete the dungeon.

ZF always bugged out if you ran down ahead of the NPCs.  Given the gear levels of players with their twink heirlooms, combined with most low-level players trying to run old dungeons like they were level 80 round-'em-ups, that's probably the problem.

[Ingmar]

Oh if the NPCs aren't even aggroing onto mobs at all then yeah that may very well be the problem.

[Chimpy]

ZF event has always bugged out if you don't let the waves get high enough on the stairs to aggro the Blytards. Ran a lowbie friend through with a group of T3 geared level 60s and we found that out.

[SurfD]

I am not sure if it completely bugs out or not.  I did ZG on my DK a while back for the Classic dungeon achieve, and i basicly just started the event, ran to the bottom, and Blew everything up with DND + Bloodboil spam.  Thought I had broken it, but after about 5 or 6 minutes, things started spawning again.

I think the problem is that most of these old events are completely time scripted, and not event scripted, so killing a wave instantly does not automatically start the next one, rather it just forces you to wait around twiddling your thumbs for 5 minutes for the next wave to spawn in.   They are timed in such a way that appropriate level and geared groups would be steadily chewing through the wave, not obliterating it in its entirety in 2 seconds.

[Rendakor]

Nope, I've waited half an hour before; I went afk and came back, no trolls spawned and the 5 guys were still chilling up top.

[Azazel]

I ran my lock through it recently using my wife's mage. Just stood up the top and waited for them and didn't have a problem. With a 30min wait you may as well have reset the instance. 

[Rendakor]

Yea I did eventually, it had just happened more than once and I wanted to know if it was a time thing or just broken.

[apocrypha]

So I'm not sure if this really qualifies as bad group or not yet, but I'm a bit cheesed off anyway.

My younger (by 18 years) brother and his other half run a guild on a different server from the one me and my guild are on. My guild has 3 active members at the moment and we're all at the point where having to rely on pugs is frustrating us a lot. We'd like to have a chance to at least see more of ICC and even old places like Ulduar and Naxx in full, which we just can't do where we are.

My bro's guild is large and experienced and is progressing 25m HC ICC atm. He said we'd be welcome to transfer a character each over there and partake in what they call their "Socials", i.e. not the 25m HC raiding group but certainly regular ICC and other raids. We're not crap players nor badly geared, we just don't have the experience of anything past Fester/Rot and the weekly raid bosses in other places so this suits us fine.

All goes well, we transfer 1 char each, start getting to know the guild, they seem like a nice bunch. Then I discover today that they use a DKP system for raid loot. I fucking hate DKP and all variants of it. It replaces a fair system with a blatantly biased and unfair one that makes "casuals" work to get the "hardcore" their loot for them first. Hate hate hate it.

To be honest I'm not even that concerned about gear at this point - we're only a few months away from it all being made redundant anyway, but it's the entire philosophy behind it that I detest and I'm annoyed with myself for not realising this was the kind of guild it is before we transferred. So pissed off. Ah well. Can always transfer back later I suppose.

Just needed to rant, thanks. 

[Selby]

Then I discover today that they use a DKP system for raid loot. I fucking hate DKP and all variants of it. It replaces a fair system with a blatantly biased and unfair one that makes "casuals" work to get the "hardcore" their loot for them first. Hate hate hate it.

In old content such as Ulduar and ICC-10 regular, if you are getting loot anyways since the others outgear you, why worry too much?  Speaking from the other side of the coin, I dislike getting casual members who only show up once every 2-3 weeks their gear that is SO much better than mine just because they can roll better than me that time, so there has to be some kind of system to keep both sets of people in the guild.  I was annoyed in my guild because a best in slot trinket for me has dropped 5 times.  All 5 of those times it has gone to someone who could /roll better than me.  One of those people quit the guild and the other 4 are no longer playing.  So for someone who is still actively raiding and has to watch loot go to those who then leave the game, it is just as annoying as it is for you to have to deal with hardcore players who can outvote you on any piece of loot they want.

Personally, I hate DKP and all variants of it too ;-)

[Paelos]

DKP has it uses if your group is consistent with very few replacement members. It's a good distribution system for a 30 man unit playing in a 25 man dungeon. Beyond that, it falls flat on it's face and serves only to completely screw the new members, make the rich get richer, and eventually kill your raid if you rely on replacement players.

[SurfD]

Yeah, A while back, our guild switched to an EpGp system
- You get Effort Points for each boss kill
- You get Gear Points for each item you get  (no GP are awarded for stuff that goes to /roll for offspecs or would be de'd for a shard under the variant our guild uses)

Who gets priority on loot is then decided based on a Ratio balance between your EP and your GP, which means that new raiders still have jsut as much a chance vs established raiders after they get even one or two boss kills under their belt, since it is purely ratio based.

[Paelos]

I've always figured that if you are throwing really complicated math into the situation, or a lot of record keeping in order to keep people happy. You're trying way too hard for a game, unless your efforts are directed at hardcore progression.

[Dren]

A standard need/greed system will work with close knit groups that raid together pretty regularly.  Ironically, those same groups seem to want to have a DKP system, which is nuts to me.  That latest craze of GDKP (using gold purely as a way to bid on items,) seems like a great system for pure to semi-pug raids.  Even if you don't get items because you lost out on bidding, you are going to get a bunch of gold at the end of the raid to use towards your next time.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me are guilds doing it for full or nearly full guild runs.  You know everyone there.  You know what they want and don't want.  Why get all complicated and competitive about deciding who gets what.  It seems to me that if you have members that cannot come to an agreement on who should get what item, you aren't going to last long anyway.  A DKP system will just tear you down that much quicker.

Eventually, you'll be D/E'ing most everything anyway or bringing alts in for kicks and grins.  I suspect this is just all about people wanting items on their own time table and if there is any chance at all that they will have to raid for 3 months before they get that last piece to their top notch tanking set, they will stomp their feet and cry (IRL.)

[dd0029]

So, kind of gave up leveling my mage as they blow for WSG or at least I am terribad as a mage in WSG and that's what I like.  So, I picked up my warrior, switched from Arms to Fury for the lolcleave action.  This guy can occasionally put my lock to shame for stupid big numbers popping up.  Granted I need a mass of mobs and some luck, but seeing 20k pop up on the sct is awesome.  

So, anyway on to the bad group.  I get randomed into a HoS with a not bad looking group.  That is until the tank decides to pull the initial pat of three and the set of four at the door.  The tank, the pally healer and I manage to survive that pull.  We then proceed to clear the entire antechamber for some reason.  The first pull is only two groups and the giant pat.  Only the mage dies this time.  Then we proceed up the hall instead of turning right for Krystallus or right for Bran, the tank decides to head to the maiden and pull all three groups of iron dwarves.  No one survives that clusterfuck and tank is vote kicked.  I swap in my tank set and we proceed to clear to Krystallus until a real tank arrives.  One does right before that pack with the MC guy.  That was  .  I get MC'd and proceed to blenderize the group.  I was a whirlling gnome death ball.  We get to Krystallus.  The mage, lock and pally healer manage to shatter themselves to death and the DK tank and I duo him the rest of the way.  Once it dies, the tank asks for the blue DPS ring, gets it and drops group?  Tank set on again.  Tank #3 shows up halfway through the maiden fight.  From then on, things were mostly fine.  

What was surprising about the whole thing is that the mage, lock and pally were all refreshingly ok with all of the deaths they ate.

[WindupAtheist]

So, kind of gave up leveling my mage as they blow for WSG or at least I am terribad as a mage in WSG and that's what I like.

Well they're not typically flag carriers and I don't know what they're like below 80, but at 80 frost mages are pretty badass in PVP overall. God knows they eat up my ret paladin. I suspect a flag carrier would be very pleased to have one hang around with him, slowing, rooting, or just facemelting the people chasing him.

[Morat20]

So, kind of gave up leveling my mage as they blow for WSG or at least I am terribad as a mage in WSG and that's what I like.

Well they're not typically flag carriers and I don't know what they're like below 80, but at 80 frost mages are pretty badass in PVP overall. God knows they eat up my ret paladin. I suspect a flag carrier would be very pleased to have one hang around with him, slowing, rooting, or just facemelting the people chasing him.

I went frost spec because of watching Frost mages in PvP. (Admittedly, this was before WoTLK came out). Way too many ways to slow or freeze you. You can trinket out of a couple, but when blizzards have a chance to root you -- doesn't do a lot of good.

Plus, decent DPS. And it's fun as hell to play (at least to me). Defintely not flag carrier, though. More support -- you can seriously fuck with people, but you don't want to be the center of attention.

[dd0029]

I should probably respec frost then and find a pvp oriented spec.  Arcane, even at 72, so out performs frost in pve it's not even funny.  even without Ice Barrier I don't feel all that more rugged.  Could also be the inexplicable Alliance move to suck in the 70-79 bracket.  Until now, we've been competitive and strangely dominant in AV for 51-60. 

One benefit of mages though is I no longer hate rogues.  Blink is the cure for them.  Locks and hunters on the other hand, still hate everyone of those fuckers. 

[proudft]

Well, you may still be in the levels where a full arcane blast totally pops people.  That is great entertainment until people's health/resilience catches up.

[Dren]

I pvp arcane with my mage.  Slow is great and you still can frost nova.  The amount of escapes and resistances in that build are just nice for PvP.  I like the mix between defense and offense with that spec.

[Merusk]

DKP has it uses if your group is consistent with very few replacement members. It's a good distribution system for a 30 man unit playing in a 25 man dungeon. Beyond that, it falls flat on it's face and serves only to completely screw the new members, make the rich get richer, and eventually kill your raid if you rely on replacement players.

Depends on the DKP system.  Bid systems do exactly what you're talking about.  Zero-sum or "suicide king" systems are much more equitable.  Suicide king being the best, as it resets whoever gets loot to 0 regardless of their point total.  Yes, someone could save up thousands of dkp to snipe an item but in doing so they're falling behind the gear curve.  Eventually to the point you shouldn't be taking them along anyway.  There's also the point that the officers shouldn't be allowing them to do that in the first place.

[apocrypha]

I wasn't on lastnight so I didn't get round to finding out more about the DKP system, I'll report back once I have details.

[Shrike]

DKP systems are sooooooooooo EQ. No reason for this sort of thing in WoW.

Our guild basically adopted a modified need before greed system and most PuGs use(d) a variant of it (if not straight GDKP). The idea was for loot to be as evenly distributed as possible. The idea was to keep people interested in playing (steady character development) and keep loot from being wasted or the raid itself from suffering too much when people quit, whatever the reason.

It was straight /roll with one need, one greed, both modified by offset (mainset always took precedence). Main characters always took precedence over alts. Least amount of gear won took precedence. The only fly in the ointment were the armor mod crap in ToC and ICC, but, eh, that stuff usually worked out over time. The fact that the main strength of T10 was in the set bonuses made this a bit less painful when dealing with sanctified stuff.

[Paelos]

When I did a system, I've always preferred a variation of upgraded rolls. You get points, and you modify your roll by half and half. When you win something your points reset.

So like, dude one has 50 points, dude two has 100 points, dude three is new and has nada. One rolls from 25-125, Two rolls from 50-150, and dude three rolls the regular 1-100. It's worked pretty well in the past, and if people have been without gear for a while, they can't lose to brand new folks.

[Morat20]

Our guild is pretty straightforward: Guy running the raid Master Loots, determines what classes/specs should roll for it -- main-specs roll 200, off-specs roll 100. It gets sharded if no one wants it.

Main-specs ALWAYS win against off-specs (the 100/200 thing is just to keep straight who is rolling for what). We're a small guild, so...not a lot of drama.

I'm also the only hunter that shows, though, so I get fairly lucky in that I don't have a lot of people to roll against when something suitable for me pops up.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Last (and only) time I was in a guild with a DKP system, the two GMs were both pretty messed up dudes (I believe they were arrested for some sexual crime). There were a great number of threads about them on Turalyon's forums, and the guild fell apart rather quickly, and I never got enough DKP for a single piece of loot either. Which was disgruntling, considering I had time for a few weeks of going 4/5 in Hyjal and 6/9 in BT, with no loot.

Anyway, it's a terrible system for a new recruit. Everyone else has a huge advantage over you.

My current guild just gives 1 MS win per wing, 1 OS per wing. Just master loot and /roll.

[fuser]

Rolled up a new alt Warrior (never played one go figure) that i'm strictly leveling via LFD/PvP.

I'm currently in low 30's encountering a 75% average of dungeon wipes in Gnomeregan. I weep for Cataclysm pug's when these sheep cannot understand "hug the wall, stay away from the ledge"

[Soulflame]

From what little I've been reading, random dungeon PUGs in Cataclysm are going to spawn epic threads.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

If this is the bad group thread for the facerolls of today (50 pages of it), just imagine when they're actually hard.

[Lt.Dan]

If this is the bad group thread for the facerolls of today (50 pages of it), just imagine when they're actually hard.

To be fair it took the first 45 pages for the WoW population to overgear the instances.  The remaining 5 pages are just collateral psychos you get in any server population. 

But yeah, guild grouping on launch is going to be compulsory.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

If this is the bad group thread for the facerolls of today (50 pages of it), just imagine when they're actually hard.

To be fair it took the first 45 pages for the WoW population to overgear the instances.  The remaining 5 pages are just collateral psychos you get in any server population. 

But yeah, guild grouping on launch is going to be compulsory.

A slow healer in even Heroic Ramps could result in the death of a T6 tank. The raveners hit rather hard. Heroic Mech, too, the Destroyers hit my shammy for 15k on occasion with mail and a shield, didn't hit the tanks for too much less. Honestly, tanks in BC took as much damage in heroics as tanks take in heroics now, with the exception of the ICC ones. They were just harder and supposedly will be harder again, and harder to outgear. Resulting in more pages of bad groupery.

[Lt.Dan]

Except this is the WOTLK thread 

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Except this is the WOTLK thread 

But surely there'll be a new thread of this sort for Cata.

[apocrypha]

There's been plenty of BC groups discussion in this thread, thanks to the RDF. And I'm sure there'll be plenty of Cata group discussion in it too. Why let a classic thread die? 

Just briefly going back to my DKP rant earlier, did some more asking and turns out they use a simple, unmodified DKP system, i.e. the worst of the worst system. Luckily they only use it for the 25m hc ICC/RS groups, so it'll never affect me. And if I ever was in a position to be affected by it I'll just leave and attempt to do so without any bad feelings either way.

If their replacements are too stupid to realise what a bad deal DKP is for them then it's not my place to point it out.

[Paelos]

If their replacements are too stupid to realise what a bad deal DKP is for them then it's not my place to point it out.

Most do. That's why raids die, and stupid raid leaders wonder what happened. Somebody gets rich early because they have almost zero competition for their loot in their role, and then they leave when they get bored. The idea as a raid leader with loot distribution is you have to keep everyone a little hungry, and also everyone fed.