Bad Groups

[apocrypha]

I got cursed with AV this weekend. Got 2 chars at 65, horde warrior and alliance rogue.

Ran 4 AVs in a row on the rogue on Saturday morning, lost them all. Swapped to warrior. Ran 4 more and lost *them* all too.

Started considering offering to join the other side for money 

[Simond]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

[Morat20]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

I think it's a distance thing. Not sure why, but Alliance always seems to be about 20 seconds or so ahead of Horde. If it's a race, Alliance always seems to win -- but then, I've always seen about 5 or 6 Alliance spoilers hanging around in the back, whereas there never seems to be any Horde trying to fuck with the Alliance pulls.

[Ingmar]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

I think it's a distance thing. Not sure why, but Alliance always seems to be about 20 seconds or so ahead of Horde. If it's a race, Alliance always seems to win -- but then, I've always seen about 5 or 6 Alliance spoilers hanging around in the back, whereas there never seems to be any Horde trying to fuck with the Alliance pulls.

About 1 time in 5 we go into Galv's room only to run into 20 horde with banners up etc. Those matches always turn into turtle/reinforcement grinds, that's probably why it doesn't happen more often.

[apocrypha]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV

...if more than 1 person at start says "Are we going to lose again?!" or "Fucking Horde/Alliance suck we always loose!11" then it's a loss, every single time.

On the other hand if people say things like "Let's win this!" or "Same as last time everyone, do your jobs!" then it's a win. Every time.

[Soulflame]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

I have seen this work.   

[WindupAtheist]

...if more than 1 person at start says "Are we going to lose again?!" or "Fucking Horde/Alliance suck we always loose!11" then it's a loss, every single time.

On the other hand if people say things like "Let's win this!" or "Same as last time everyone, do your jobs!" then it's a win. Every time.

In other words if multiple people are bitching about repeated losses, it's probably a bad/losing group. But if they're talking about winning like last time, it's probably a good group.

[Nightblade]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV

...if more than 1 person at start says "Are we going to lose again?!" or "Fucking Horde/Alliance suck we always loose!11" then it's a loss, every single time.

On the other hand if people say things like "Let's win this!" or "Same as last time everyone, do your jobs!" then it's a win. Every time.

Let's positive thinking.

[Fordel]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

I think it's a distance thing. Not sure why, but Alliance always seems to be about 20 seconds or so ahead of Horde. If it's a race, Alliance always seems to win -- but then, I've always seen about 5 or 6 Alliance spoilers hanging around in the back, whereas there never seems to be any Horde trying to fuck with the Alliance pulls.

About 1 time in 5 we go into Galv's room only to run into 20 horde with banners up etc. Those matches always turn into turtle/reinforcement grinds, that's probably why it doesn't happen more often.

We win those too, it just takes longer. 

[Merusk]

How to tell if you're going to lose AV as Horde: Someone says "No defence, ignore Balinda, rush bunkers, zerg Vann".
Never, ever seen it work.

Funny, Horde do it on Rampage all the time and smear Ally's ass.  Of course, we have 2 of the highest ranked Horde-Side PVP servers on our BG, so that might have something to do with it.  Pallies in actual PvE tank gear and healers who actually heal = a force that can hold all 5 WMs and Vann.   The last two times I bothered AV at 80 the Horde won with a Vann rush. The first  while Ally was still trying to take the tower near Galv, the second when we tried our own rush and died because the all 5 healers in the BG had stopped at Galv.   I decided it wasn't worth it after that and never played again.

[apocrypha]

In other words if multiple people are bitching about repeated losses, it's probably a bad/losing group. But if they're talking about winning like last time, it's probably a good group.

Exactly. Plus it's self-reinforcing. New additions to the losing group see the bitching and go personal honor farming instead of working with the team.

[Dren]

Number one rule in PvP whining:  It is always everyone else sucking, not you.

I love it when people start saying how much we suck before the conclusion is set.  Happened again the other day for WG. 

"You guys suck.  All you newbs went out and took down all the towers and they put holes in our walls!  We are gonna lose because of you!"

We took their 15% buff and made it our 15% buff.  We dropped the timer down to like 3 mins left.  Plus, all the tower killers came back to the keep to defend.

We defended the keep and won.   

[Sjofn]

I'm posting this here, because why not:

FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU, YOU ICE BLOCK FAILURE GUILDMATES ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH


Sindragosa is causing me a great deal of anguish, partly because I'm the off tank and it is the MOST BORING FIGHT EVER for me. Because naturally we keep wiping early in the phase where I actually have something to do. >< >< ><

[Soulflame]

I've never seen Sindragosa.  Is it an iceblock mechanic like the one in Naxx?  Maybe you could drag them off to there for training!   

[Ingmar]

The air phase is like a more complicated version of the Naxx one, we're handling that OK; it is the iceblocks in the last 35% phase that are a) not getting broken fast enough and b) frequently getting chained onto multiple people.

[Merusk]

The last phase ice blocks?  Yeah, that was what took my guild 2 months to learn, and we didn't style ourselves as "casual."  We didn't get it until we finally had a group going on a regular basis to get used to the timing and positioning.  We finally settled on a front leg/ back leg swap while emphasizing "everyone pay attention in case the idiot marked doesn't move because YOU will have to."  

We spent a good day and a half doing nothing to the boss during the final phase.  We had the air/ land cycles down but it was that one killing us, so we learned how to dance.  All players huddled behind the ice blocks, with the exception of the healers which did every other ice block (since breaking Sind's LOS also breaks it on the tank.)  We did this until we finally lived to the enrage timer.  There were a LOT of "Fail" ice block chains before that enrage wipe.

ALSO:  FROST RESIST.  Don't even start the fight until you've made sure everyone has at least the boots and belt of crafted frost gear on.  You've got a +30% damage buff in ICC now which more than makes up for losing those two pieces.  It makes surviving the frost aura and accidental frost blocks a lot easier.

I've never seen Sindragosa.  Is it an iceblock mechanic like the one in Naxx?  Maybe you could drag them off to there for training!  

Not similar other than they turn into blocks.  On Sind the block also chains to other people, so no huddling close once they're marked.  Move out of the way, then in once they're ice cubes. She marks 5 people at once and you have to DPS them out or else they die, she doesn't break the block.

While this is going on you have to LOS 3 ice bolts that hit random spots in the event area. This means moving around the ice block you choose while keeping up your DPS.  Too much DPS and you break them early and everyone around the block takes a frost blast to the face. Too little and you lose that person.. (who is inevitably a healer)

The final phase she randomly selects a person to ice block every 20 seconds.  This block also chains, so the marked person is supposed to move out of the way.   You huddle behind the block because she's pulsing a +damage debuff that will get you killed you once it gets to 8 or 9 stacks because of her damage aura.  The debuff drops after 6secs so you can alternate ice block cycles with hiding and DPSing the boss.

[Selby]

Sindragosa is causing me a great deal of anguish

Our 10-m group had it down in like 3 weeks, but our 25m group took 3 fucking months to finally get it right.  Way too much "derp derp wadya mean I move?" from people and the whole "sucked in to the boss, and 20 people run out every time but 5 always manage to choke on it" which made it an exercise in frustration.

Luckily the heroic version is not that hard compared to the regular version.  Regarding frost gear, only our tanks really ever needed it.  Biggest thing to remember: the final phase is all about controlling the ice blocks and doing consistent damage to the boss, not a zerg.

[Morat20]

Our guild, on 10-man, still wipes regularly on the second boss. :) Not like "stuck there". Just generally takes two or three bites at the apple to get past. (Then again, we don't always have the same people and we don't have an optimized raid. it's "Two tanks, two healers, and whatever DPS mix we get).

Airship bit is easy. The boss after that, with the blood beasts, is where we wiped a few times and called it quits last time. Not that the fight was hard -- tanks had it down, but our DPS was way to melee to handle the blood beasts.

[Sjofn]

Our guild, on 10-man, still wipes regularly on the second boss. :) Not like "stuck there". Just generally takes two or three bites at the apple to get past. (Then again, we don't always have the same people and we don't have an optimized raid. it's "Two tanks, two healers, and whatever DPS mix we get).

This is not entirely unusual for my guild either, although it happened far more often in Ulduar on bosses we shouldn't have been wiping on than it has been in ICC. We also have a high variation on who comes (we have some people who are there every week, we have some people who take a few weeks off (like me!)) and our raid make-up is sometimes hilariously terrible. I haven't raided with a priest in months, which will make Lich King (from what I have read) a delight.

Not that I will ever fight him because of Sindra-fuckin'-gosa.

It's good her BETRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYS you line doesn't bother me, otherwise I'd be even more annoyed, probably! 

[Wolf]

Sindragosa is causing me a great deal of anguish

Luckily the heroic version is not that hard compared to the regular version.  Regarding frost gear, only our tanks really ever needed it.  Biggest thing to remember: the final phase is all about controlling the ice blocks and doing consistent damage to the boss, not a zerg.

waaat? Heroic 'gosa is very, very, very hard and rng-y. Have you tried her? We finally got putricide heroic down last week and we've started working on sindragosa in 10m, but it's going as slow and painful as putri.

[Selby]

waaat? Heroic 'gosa is very, very, very hard and rng-y. Have you tried her?

Yeah, she's on farm for us.  Putricide heroic is the last heroic boss we have before the LK.  We can get him to ph3 regularly, but usually 2-3 people are dead by then and it's a wipe.  We're also only 4 achievements away from our 310% mounts ;-)

[Morat20]

We also have a high variation on who comes (we have some people who are there every week, we have some people who take a few weeks off (like me!)) and our raid make-up is sometimes hilariously terrible.

We had...two druids, a priest, a hunter, a warlock, 4 DK's and a rogue.

It was fucking hilarious watching us try to kill blood beasts with the hunter (frost trap won't work on them -- you can ice down the area to slow them down, but not freeze them in place) and the warlock. Hunter (me) was running around concussion shotting them while luring them over traps, while the warlock was dotting them and the druid healer (the other was feral) were trying to trying to mix healing and DPS. I couldn't do sustained heavy DPS because I couldn't stand still, the warlock DoTs took to long, and well...the druid wasn't exactly able to bring on the pain.

The 4 DK's -- two were tanking, and the other two and the rogue (along with all the pets) were stuck on the boss. I seriously wish one of our mages could have made it. We lasted a surprisingly long time, all told. I'm sure a well geared group could probably have done it with that mix, but two of us were on our first trip to ICC, and the rest had between 1 and 5 trips there -- and the best geared were the tanks.

[Wolf]

waaat? Heroic 'gosa is very, very, very hard and rng-y. Have you tried her?

Yeah, she's on farm for us.  Putricide heroic is the last heroic boss we have before the LK.  We can get him to ph3 regularly, but usually 2-3 people are dead by then and it's a wipe.  We're also only 4 achievements away from our 310% mounts ;-)

Oh nice, I really thought she's harder than putri from the several tries we've put in. So, kill on Sunday and start ot LK and mounts next week :)

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Our guild, on 10-man, still wipes regularly on the second boss. :) Not like "stuck there". Just generally takes two or three bites at the apple to get past. (Then again, we don't always have the same people and we don't have an optimized raid. it's "Two tanks, two healers, and whatever DPS mix we get).

Airship bit is easy. The boss after that, with the blood beasts, is where we wiped a few times and called it quits last time. Not that the fight was hard -- tanks had it down, but our DPS was way to melee to handle the blood beasts.

You should probably lay your frost trap on the melee, so they trip it as soon as they spawn and you don't have to kite them into it. Just focus them down. And the lock shouldn't just be getting damage from dots... he should be using Incinerate and things of that nature, if I remember right.

[Morat20]

You should probably lay your frost trap on the melee, so they trip it as soon as they spawn and you don't have to kite them into it. Just focus them down. And the lock shouldn't just be getting damage from dots... he should be using Incinerate and things of that nature, if I remember right.

I have no idea what spec our 'lock is.

Secondly, as I learned on the first wipe -- my ice traps (whichever one is the ice-cube one) don't work. The big ice-slick ones do. I shoved them down so the beasts hit them, but generally we couldn't kill two beasts in 30 seconds with 80% of our DPS being melee. I'd have killed for frost-specced mage. Blizzard and frost nova would have been so nice with chill....

[Wolf]

The chances of seeing a frost mage in icc are not very big though. What you need to do is something like: dont bother with traps, you have two dks for chains of ice; druid entangles one add, dk drops chains on the other and you and lock focus it down (destro is <3 for that fight - burst and stun). Chains on the other add before you open and brake entangle, focus - done :) tanks need to be on the ball with taunting if an add gets close to you or lock.

[Ingmar]

We actually just AE/burn the fight down now on Saurfang, no kiting of blood beasts or anything. Half the time he dies before he casts a mark even doing it that way.

[Simond]

It's good her BETRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYS you line doesn't bother me, otherwise I'd be even more annoyed, probably! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jInIBx65tfU 

[Ingmar]

I made that track part of the required Sindragosa preparation last week. 

[SurfD]

The chances of seeing a frost mage in icc are not very big though. What you need to do is something like: dont bother with traps, you have two dks for chains of ice; druid entangles one add, dk drops chains on the other and you and lock focus it down (destro is <3 for that fight - burst and stun). Chains on the other add before you open and brake entangle, focus - done :) tanks need to be on the ball with taunting if an add gets close to you or lock.

Are you doing it Heroic or non?

- Frost Trap (the ice slick one) is very usefull for beasts, especially if you drop it right on saurfang just before they spawn.  The initial slow is VERY usefull for getting other slows on them before they get much time to move.
- With 4 dk's each beast should be chains of iced constantly.
- If you tank saurfang facing towards the boat (so melee are backs to the door, you can have the dk's taunt + chains a beast just before it reaches the ranged, and it will move slowly back towards the middle for yet more dps time.
- Rooting the beasts in place (Drood roots, Talented Earthbind tottem, etc) can be a DANGEROUS tactic (especially on heroic) since if they get rooted within striking distance of a melee they will turn and hit that person.
- Beasts are stunnable.  If one of your DK's are unholy, they could throw the ghoul on it, and ghoul stun it every other spawn (i think) for 4 seconds of extra dps time. (as a last resort, your rogue could peel off saurfang and attempt to stunlock a beast (which may be nessicary in a very melee heavy 10s raid anyway)
- If your lock has dual spec, get him to work out a good spec with high burst / direct damage.  Slow damage from Dots as affliction wont cut it for quickly killing beasts, especially in heroic.
- Another trick is to have the ranged dps target and focus damage on the beast on the OPPOSITE side of saurfang from their position.  Farther the beasts have to travel (in this case, they have to cross over saurfang by a good 10 extra yards), the more dps you can get in on them.

[Sjofn]

Here was my evening:

THE FLAW OF MORTALITY x100000000000000000000000000000



We've done better tonight, holding it together the first 4 or 5 blocks, then it all goes to hell. Of course, I have no idea how many blocks are normal on a successful kill in that phase.

[Wolf]

Surf - I was trying to give Morat some ideas, I've had heroic on farm since April :)

Sjofn - It really depends on your dps. I pretty much destroy this fight, so we don't get that many - probably 5-6 total, than again I can eat 20 stacks of the debuff before healers start noticing. Don't tell anyone, but SPs are pretty broken at the moment. Are you doing it with one tank in frost res gear? Makes the fight pretty easy.

I keep on hoping people won't show up for 25m so we can do 10m, but they keep disappointing me. We'll start extending our save 'till we get LK down tho, so may be they'll start slacking soon... so much fail last night :(

[Sjofn]

Our group make up tonight was:

One tank DK (me)
One tank warrior (Ing)
Two rogues
Two hunters
Two tree druids
One holy paladin
One mage



Like I said earlier, I haven't played with a priest in the raid for months, healing-type or otherwise. Hell, I still can't get over the novelty of having a warlock show up, we've actually had one the last couple weeks (his kids had pink eye so he didn't come tonight). As far as I can tell, the issue is entirely ice block placement and ice block breaking, and alas, there's not much I can personally do about either.  


EDIT: Our DPS on this fight is sort of bleh, only one person was breaking 6k. Second place was in the 4k's somewhere.

[Wolf]

Two rogues
Two hunters

Ouch. afaik, the fight is very shitty for melee, their debuff is veeeery annoying. Especially for fast hitters like rouges/hunters. With that dps, you're going to have a ton of blocks, so you need to figure out rotations, who's exactly hitting the iceblocks, etc very well. I'd say let the mage go all out on sindy and not bother with block dps at all. He can eat a full length unchained magic and clear mystic buffet stacks with mage iceblock.

[SurfD]

Correct me if i am wrong, but I didnt think hunters got the Mele debuff.  At least, one of the hunters in my guild constantly comments that sindy is a joke for him cause he doesent get Unchained Magic, and the melee debuff never seems to matter much to him.

Also, rogues can cloak the debuff off to reset their stacks if they get really high.  If they have problems in phase 3, you could just stick one rogue permanently on iceblock killing duty.  In 10 man, they go down pretty fast.

For our ten man runs, we usually position the dragon paralllel to the stairs (head facing either left or right).  First block goes up near the head, second block runs up the stairs (basicly directly back from the first block).  First block is usually dead by time third block lands, so third block goes to head again.  Then just try to keep blocks down in alternating sequence so you always drop a new block where the last one just broke.