Bad Groups

[Wolf]

Maybe our hunters/rogues are shit, because I literally beat them by 3-4% on sindy. Which I don't think is the case, because top dps (7-8 people, 2 hunters one rogue) is within 0,5% of each other on most other bosses. I wish the people that did logs for us didn't slack so much so I could link :(

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70107 - it's 20% on hit, fast hitting classes do have a problem with it. My hunter has an attack speed of 2,40 selfbuffed, probably goes down to 2ish in a raid. Without taking into account rapid fire, sting reapplications and silencing, that's 10 attacks per chimera cycle (3 steady, 1 chimera, 1 Aimed, 5 white - taking one steady out for fail and not perfectly matching gcds), which means 2 stacks per cycle. What was the pull in timer - 30secs I think?, so that's 6 stacks at pull in ticking for 12,000 every 2 seconds. Hmm, I guess it's not that bad, but you could get fucked by RNG pretty hard. I'll push our alt run on monday to get to sindy so I can test that, we generally call it quits at dreamwalker. Sorry for the napkin math, I find that sort of thing interesting 

[Sjofn]

I'm not sure what the fight is like for our hunters but it doesn't seem to be an issue for them. Our one DPSer breaking 6k was one of the hunters. :D

One of the issues we're having is we cannot seem to hit the sweet spot on ice block destruction. One of our tries I was up to 12 fucking stacks before one lived long enough for me to shed the debuff, and that was only because it chained on two people or something (it all starts to blur together). And then there are other tries where the first two blocks take FOREVER to die, which then creates this horrible cascading backlog.

[SurfD]

Do you guys use voice coms at all? In 10 man, blocks die pretty quickly under heavy fire, so we usually have the tanks constantly calling out "dont break the block", "dont break the block", "ok, my stacks reset, break the block".

Triggerhappy dps can really mess you up in phase 3 with that.  The hardest part about sindy is convincing people that it is NOT a dps race, but is a complete survival fight, and as such, executing the fight mechanics correctly and takeing a minute or two longer grants a much higher success rate then just dumping more dps into everything.

[Wolf]

Hey dumping more dps on sindy can't hurt. Than again i seem to be the only trololodps in the thread :)

[Paelos]

We couldn't survive that fight by getting cute with the iceblocks in the last phase. We just went with the strat of balls to the wall heroism at that point, coupled with whoever got blocked going down with the ship. All dps went to the boss and never broke off. It takes 6k dps to do that, but with full buffs and good gear, you should have people capable of pushing to that point there. If not, it won't even matter because by the time you get to LK, your dps is too low to contend with that fight, and the transitions/valks will cause you problems.

[Rasix]

So, first day actually running an instance and stupidly enough I decide to heal.  First group is heroic HOS and that goes fine.  I derp derp derp into the laser, but luckily I'm a shaman.     We end up booting the sub 900 DPS warlock that casts EVERY spell in the book and they're all down level.  Finish the instance with 4.

Second group is Gundrak.  I really don't like healing this place.  Sure enough, the group is melee heavy, low dps, and they just STAND IN THE POISON NOVA.  Some of them die post boss and get cranky.  Then WoW locks up on the next boss and they die.  They all run back to the wrong entrance.  /leave

Next group is again, Gundrak.  It goes smoothly.  Somewhat lower geared, but they're all paying attention and it goes smoothly and fast.  Yay.  Got enough emblems for my goblin hunter's hierloom chest piece.  Not sure if I care to do randoms again until the xpac, although it is tempting to get a full set of hierlooms for any prospective alts.

[Morat20]

I got a new 219 gun for my hunter (Fuck if I can remember which one -- was a drop). With the bit of ICC gear, and some use of emblems, WG shards, and flat-out honor points to at least gear up everything to close to 200, my DPS has shot up.

I'm over 4k in 5-man heroics, and that's with sub-optimal buffs. I'm thinking of going ahead and dropping the grand to dual-spec from BM to a MM heavy one for the raiding, but since I want to build the chopper (And I'm at like 430ish engineering) I really could find better uses for the money.

So I'm not feeling quite so useless. I still don't have my first piece of Frost Gear -- although something strange, I was at Argent Tournament and saw someone selling what looked like upgraded Windrunner's stuff. Same "Set", just instead of the 232 for the Triumph T9 set it was 254 or 260-something. It required the old piece of Windrunner's plus something else...some token.

Any idea what that is? I really like the set bonuses on the Windrunners.

[Zetor]

You can use tokens from the 25-man version of Trial of the Crusader (along with marks) to buy the ilevel245 stuff. You buy the ilevel258 stuff with tokens you get in Trial of the Grand Crusader iirc (not sure if 25-man only or if you get tokens in 10-man as well). You can also get lucky in 25-man VOA (fire boss) to get ilevel245 legs/gloves.

edit: Note that getting groups for these raids might be difficult. TOC25 is ran once a week or so on my server, but generally people just do ICC pugs nowadays. Getting into a ToGC (Trial of the Grand Crusader) pug is out of the question -- at least on my server.

[Ingmar]

Maybe our hunters/rogues are shit, because I literally beat them by 3-4% on sindy. Which I don't think is the case, because top dps (7-8 people, 2 hunters one rogue) is within 0,5% of each other on most other bosses. I wish the people that did logs for us didn't slack so much so I could link :(

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70107 - it's 20% on hit, fast hitting classes do have a problem with it. My hunter has an attack speed of 2,40 selfbuffed, probably goes down to 2ish in a raid. Without taking into account rapid fire, sting reapplications and silencing, that's 10 attacks per chimera cycle (3 steady, 1 chimera, 1 Aimed, 5 white - taking one steady out for fail and not perfectly matching gcds), which means 2 stacks per cycle. What was the pull in timer - 30secs I think?, so that's 6 stacks at pull in ticking for 12,000 every 2 seconds. Hmm, I guess it's not that bad, but you could get fucked by RNG pretty hard. I'll push our alt run on monday to get to sindy so I can test that, we generally call it quits at dreamwalker. Sorry for the napkin math, I find that sort of thing interesting 

Hunters get unchained magic I believe.

[SurfD]

You can use tokens from the 25-man version of Trial of the Crusader (along with marks) to buy the ilevel245 stuff. You buy the ilevel258 stuff with tokens you get in Trial of the Grand Crusader iirc (not sure if 25-man only or if you get tokens in 10-man as well). You can also get lucky in 25-man VOA (fire boss) to get ilevel245 legs/gloves.

edit: Note that getting groups for these raids might be difficult. TOC25 is ran once a week or so on my server, but generally people just do ICC pugs nowadays. Getting into a ToGC (Trial of the Grand Crusader) pug is out of the question -- at least on my server.

The Base Level Stuff is 232.  The 245 stuff, as mentioned, requires Badges + Tokens, and the tokens drop off of 25 man bosses, or heroic 10 man (only from the last chest if you beat the dungeon with more then a certain number of attempts remaining).

[apocrypha]

Next group is again, Gundrak.  It goes smoothly.  Somewhat lower geared, but they're all paying attention and it goes smoothly and fast.

I often find this in heroics. Lower geared groups are much, much better most of the time. Group with a couple of Kingslayers and lots of 6k GS's will be a *nightmare*, 90% chance.

Mind you I pretty much only ever tank or heal in heroics atm. On the very rare occasions I'm DPSing I don't care who or what is in the group, I can adjust to it either way.

[Azazel]

I fond that out of all the players, 50k tanks (especially druids for some reason) are the most likely to be massive douchebags. Healers are a distant third.

[Sjofn]

Next group is again, Gundrak.  It goes smoothly.  Somewhat lower geared, but they're all paying attention and it goes smoothly and fast.

I often find this in heroics. Lower geared groups are much, much better most of the time. Group with a couple of Kingslayers and lots of 6k GS's will be a *nightmare*, 90% chance.

Mind you I pretty much only ever tank or heal in heroics atm. On the very rare occasions I'm DPSing I don't care who or what is in the group, I can adjust to it either way.

See, DPSing is the only time I DO care who else is in the group. If I'm tanking, we don't have a douchebag chainpulling healer-mana-be-damned asshole as a tank, if I'm healing we don't have a whiney douchebag demanding the undergeared tank pull the entire instance at once. That goes a long way, I find. 

[Shrike]

I find as dps that--barring a bad tank or a "I don't heal dps" healer in HoR--well, actually I guess I do have issues as dps, since I get both of those more often than I'd like.

When I"m on my dps characters (shaman or DK), I can cover any crappy dps we might have along, like last night. We had a seriel-/afk warlock and an undergeared...something (don't recall what, druid maybe). The instance (HHoS) went kinda slowly, but went pretty much without any drama, other than the tank bitching at the warlock for being a leech. Interestingly, the healer was a priest from my server and a kingslayer. I don't think he said more than three words. I like that in a healer.

When I'm tanking, then I get the idiots. Mostly it's managable (/ignore is always good to go), but you do get the gogogogo body pulling morons that really push my buttons. Or the asshole shaman and DRUIDS with knockback. Those douchebags get told once to knock it the fuck off. If not, there's a votecheck and/or a bubble-hearth. No ifs, ands or buts. That shit I will not tolerate. It's one thing if you need it on a furballed pull (it does happen), but when I have a nice, tight, quickly dying group around me, I don't like seeing this foolishness just because it amuses them. That's PvP crap. Not in my dungeon.

[apocrypha]

Or the asshole shaman and DRUIDS with knockback. Those douchebags get told once to knock it the fuck off. If not, there's a votecheck and/or a bubble-hearth. No ifs, ands or buts. That shit I will not tolerate. It's one thing if you need it on a furballed pull (it does happen), but when I have a nice, tight, quickly dying group around me, I don't like seeing this foolishness just because it amuses them. That's PvP crap. Not in my dungeon.

Absolutely. Been levelling a warrior tank (71 now, really good fun) and that's been one of my major annoyances.

And I supposed I worded my comment about DPSing wrongly - I do pay attention to the gear and abilities of the rest of the group when DPSing, it's just that it's easier to adjust to extremes than if I'm tanking or healing.

Plus other people's incompetence causes me less stress as DPS than as tank/heal. If people are being raging fucktards when I'm tanking or healing I have to work that much harder to keep things working. If I'm DPSing then.. meh, whatever. Be a fucktard as much as you like, I can always ditch the group faster than you can get me killed 

[Morat20]

I got a heroic ToC today that...sucked. Watched half of them die on the jousting. Then the tank? Oh god, he sucked. Three wipes. The healer kept my pet (a cat) up longer as a tank than we could keep him up. Vote-kicked him, got a new tank -- no problems. He was a DK -- his gear seemed adequate, but I didn't check his spec.

Healer complained that she was chain-healing him and couldn't keep him alive.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

I got a heroic ToC today that...sucked. Watched half of them die on the jousting. Then the tank? Oh god, he sucked. Three wipes. The healer kept my pet (a cat) up longer as a tank than we could keep him up. Vote-kicked him, got a new tank -- no problems. He was a DK -- his gear seemed adequate, but I didn't check his spec.

Healer complained that she was chain-healing him and couldn't keep him alive.

That healer should learn to use something other than Chain Heal, then. Not hard to keep a tank up with Healing Wave.

Unless you meant she was just spamming heals and not using the actual spell Chain Heal.

[SurfD]

I got a heroic ToC today that...sucked. Watched half of them die on the jousting. Then the tank? Oh god, he sucked. Three wipes. The healer kept my pet (a cat) up longer as a tank than we could keep him up. Vote-kicked him, got a new tank -- no problems. He was a DK -- his gear seemed adequate, but I didn't check his spec.

Healer complained that she was chain-healing him and couldn't keep him alive.

That healer should learn to use something other than Chain Heal, then. Not hard to keep a tank up with Healing Wave.

Unless you meant she was just spamming heals and not using the actual spell Chain Heal.

I am going to guess he was one of those DKs who somehow managed to make it to 80 firmly under the belief that the only thing a DK needs to tank is frost presence.  Fuck tank gear, or defensive talents, I have mother fucking frost presence, I'm a tank.

[Ashamanchill]

I fond that out of all the players, 50k tanks (especially druids for some reason) are the most likely to be massive douchebags. Healers are a distant third.

Hey!!!

[Azazel]

Not all, just most likely. Then again, if the shoe fits.. 

[Ashamanchill]

Note to self: If you encounter any Hunetrs(?) named Azazel, let them die to aggro. Then be a douche bag to them.

I kid I kid. I would never do that. I would simply drop group and let you wait ten minutes to find a new tank. That would be much more punishing.

[Simond]

I am going to guess he was one of those DKs who somehow managed to make it to 80 firmly under the belief that the only thing a DK needs to tank is frost presence.  Fuck tank gear, or defensive talents, I have mother fucking frost presence, I'm a tank.

What's going to be funny is watching how many of those fail to read the presence tooltips' post-4.0

[apocrypha]

Bad grouping day yesterday. 3 attempts each on my 76 disc priest and 71 prot warrior before getting a successfully completed random dungeon.

The usual mix of the aforementioned shit DK tanks, afk DPS, moronic huge group-wiping pulls, racist abuse from 14 year olds and a group *insistent* on trying for achievments in Old Kingdom, despite it being normal, not heroic. They just wanted to "practice!".

My tolerance for bullshit in random groups has reached zero. I have alts and other things I can do. Any bullshit and I'm out of there.

[Setanta]

+1 for the Elemental and Oomkin 'tards with knockback. On my Pally I can get the aggro back, if I'm on my Druid, running around swiping all over the place after I just got them in a nice little group sucks.

Much hate for hunters who out-gear me but can't MD or FD and open up without me being close to a mob and then cry when they end up tanking the boss.... and as for DKs that pop their army before I even hit the boss... I live in hope that aggro transfers to you because I'm going to let you DIAF.

Other classes seem fine, DKs and hunters get one chance and then that's it.

Usually it's a case of:
Hunter/DK: Taunt
Me: Ummm....
Hunter/DK: Taunt
Me: Hmmm....
Hunter/DK: Taunt FFS (splat)
Me: You're an idiot (followed by in-game taunt)

[Azazel]

Note to self: If you encounter any Hunetrs(?) named Azazel, let them die to aggro. Then be a douche bag to them.

I kid I kid. I would never do that. I would simply drop group and let you wait ten minutes to find a new tank. That would be much more punishing.

Be sure and do that. Won't worry me in the slightest. 

[WoopeeTuralyon]

I'll correct myself. It's easy to keep up a tank that is crit-immune with Healing Wave. A dumbass DK who thinks he's a tank if he hits the tank role regardless of his gear/spec is not going to stay alive at all against any somewhat hard-hitting mob.

[Morat20]

That healer should learn to use something other than Chain Heal, then. Not hard to keep a tank up with Healing Wave.

Unless you meant she was just spamming heals and not using the actual spell Chain Heal.

Spamming heals. Like I said, she kept my cat up longer. Also, this weekend I played "Can I solo undead Strat with my 80 hunter". The answer? "Fucking easy beyond words".

My mage finally made it to 58, which means Outland. Of course, it took two Dire Maul runs (I'd actually NEVER been to Dire Maul. Ever. On any toon) and one LBRS run that no one noticed was Lower, so we did Upper, which involved teaching a newbie Hunter (his level 56 was his main) how to 'kite' and things like "Don't fucking kite Drak until we say go" (in his defense, he got it exactly right the second try. Except for the FD part. He got hit, but luckily he was in the Beast's room). We wiped like 4 fucking times on that run, mostly to hard hitting mobs at the end -- and the tank getting knocked off the fucking bridge (that was hilarious).

For that many wipes, everyone was rather good natured about it. The tank was good, but like me he hadn't done UBRS in years -- and never as a tank.

Also, my pally got his first piece of heirloom (he's 19) and respecced a bit and now I have to figure out how to tank with a level 19 pally. I've got "Protection Spec" and "Use a shield and maybe a mace" going. After that, I'm a bit stuck.

[Shrike]

"Tanking" at 19 generally means getting in something's face and hoping for the best. Not too many tools to work with at that level--lots of TC and HS/cleave spam, if the red bar is reasonably full. Only warrior experience that low.

I don't think any of my pallies ever tanked at that young of an age. My protection pally has been prot since day one, but never actually tanked for a group until...late 40s maybe. I didn't seriously tank until 71.

Bad groups this last weekend: healers that don't heal. This is all too frequent nowadays. I think my tank characters will get shelved when Cataclysm goes live. It's going to be ugly out there. Really ugly.

[Lantyssa]

Dungeons aren't exactly challenging up to the 50s, especially if you end up geared out in all blues from them.

[Ingmar]

"Tanking" at 19 generally means getting in something's face and hoping for the best. Not too many tools to work with at that level--lots of TC and HS/cleave spam, if the red bar is reasonably full. Only warrior experience that low.

By 19 on live you have revenge, thunderclap, and sunder armor, that is essentially all the tools you should need at that level. Hell when I was leveling we didn't even have thunder clap, and we managed! 

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Dungeons aren't exactly challenging up to the 50s, especially if you end up geared out in all blues from them.

Maraudon can be somewhat challenging. Or at least it used to be. But I guess they've nerfed all that stuff into oblivion to make it easier to level. I remember the summoning event with... Belnistrasz? In RFD used to be really tough for a level-appropriate group.

[dd0029]

Dungeons aren't exactly challenging up to the 50s, especially if you end up geared out in all blues from them.

Maraudon can be somewhat challenging. Or at least it used to be. But I guess they've nerfed all that stuff into oblivion to make it easier to level. I remember the summoning event with... Belnistrasz? In RFD used to be really tough for a level-appropriate group.

On my most recent pass through, I was surprised at how easy this all was.  About the only spell I cast outside of a boss fight was blizzard.  Mauradon was easy.  The only challenging things were the slimes and the thorn throwers on the orange side.  Purple is slightly easier if you have someone to remove poisons, but even that is not necessary.

I remember the temple portion of ZF being a pain.  I know they nerfed that to bits a long time ago, but prior to this heirloom run I remember having to rely on the NPC group to help.  We were standing on the ground killing them as they spawned this time. 

Where those people went though is beyond me because they have not followed me into Northrend.  My sub 80 pugs have been dismal lately.

[Rendakor]

ZF likes to bug out these days on the temple; when I was that level with my last alt it seemed like only a 50% chance for the final wave to spawn. This sucked because it meant you couldn't get to the Chief and thus complete the dungeon.

[Ingmar]

Hm, my recollection is that whether or not the door opens is contingent on the goblin doing his thing and blowing the door up and not dying either from mobs or the players. I wonder if something related to that is broken or if people are just doing it wrong? I haven't run that dungeon in probably 3+ years, though.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

You're supposed to talk to Bly after it's over with the goblin still alive, and he'll say something like "Hell no!" and run away and blow the gates open.

Or are Shadowpriest Sezz'ziz and Nekrum Gutchewer not spawning? If that's the case, I've got no idea.