Bad Groups

[Rendakor]

I've got all the tank classes at 80 already.

[Morat20]

We had a tank bail on....UK, I think? It's got the boss chick that randomly starts hovering over the group for a bit during the fight, so there's that fun interim where all the ranged people potshot at her.

Anyways, the tank (DK) asks if we can do an achievenment -- apparently it involves having the boss kill one of those fat patchwork looking dudes. So you trigger the boss fight, and during the lengthy "exposition" bit where she's going from "easy kill" to "boss" and there's boring talking and shit, you lure in the fat guy, get him down to 10 to 20% or so, let him just hit on the tank and when the boss gets down and starts doing whatever it she does (one of the benefits of being ranged DPS is "not having to give a shit" about what goes on in melee range") she kills the fat guy.

Well, the tank -- who wanted the achievement, told us how to go about it, does the pull --- and it all goes perfectly. DPS stops at 15%, thing's still aggroed on the tank, tank sets himself up....boss fight starts, fat guy goes down, boss goes down -- no achievement. Tank says "WTF" and starts demanding to know what happened.

Turns out, it was his fucking fault. He did some AoE or had some AoE presence or something up. (I don't know high level DKs. Mine's 59.) Whatever it was, our healer looks through the combat logs, pinpoints that the tank landed the killing blow. Tank says "Fuck you guys" and bails.

Overall, though, my PuG experience has been mostly good. I've had a couple where I wished you could mark folks as "Fuck yes, put me with these people again!" several times. Of course, some of the better geared folks...it's sometimes obvious when you're really outclassed. (Of course, dungeons go QUICK).

I'm up to...2 set pieces of T9, both rings from the truimph vendor, and am getting either the helmet or pants next. Got about 35 of the 50, so maybe three or four more heroics to get the next piece. It'll be awhile before I have enough frost badges for anything.

[Shrike]

He probably was on mental autopilot and dropped D&D for initial aggro--like DKs usually do--which then smoked the abom. Ah, well.   

[Morat20]

He probably was on mental autopilot and dropped D&D for initial aggro--like DKs usually do--which then smoked the abom. Ah, well.   

Yeah, having him rage-quit the group for his own damn stupidity was just icing on the cake. A run I did today, had me finally fucking managing to survive heroic Loken. (Well, I've survived it before. TODAY was the first time I survived it without requiring a massively overgeared healer who could just fucking heal through it). That fight is aimed at fucking over hunters. I get positioning and shit, but I have a choice between "good DPS" and "living".

Unless there's some secret strat I don't know, all I can do is stand as close as possible and still use a gun, then stack up and add my awesome melee/trap powers when he lighting novas or whatever. Cuts my damage to shit.

[Ingmar]

...both rings from the triumph vendor? Unless you are a spellcaster of some kind it is likely that whatever you are using as the 2nd ring is really suboptimal.

[Rendakor]

When he does the nova, you're supposed to run OUT. Disengage works quite well. Otherwise, you're right in standing in minimum range.

[Sjofn]

I've got all the tank classes at 80 already.

High five!

And yeah, Loken is just an asshole for hunters. :(

[Rendakor]

Thanks! I wish Warlocks could stay in metamorphosis so I could have a cloth tank.

[SurfD]

When he does the nova, you're supposed to run OUT. Disengage works quite well. Otherwise, you're right in standing in minimum range.

Not 100% sure, but couldn't you just Deterrence the first nova?  if your group's dps is even halfway decent he should never get a second one.

[Rendakor]

Maybe, I don't know hunter skills that well since I haven't played one since vanilla. Regardless, you're not supposed to stack up in melee.

[Shrike]

Is there some super sekret squirrel ability Loken has I"m not familiar with? Shared damage? I just don't recall.

When I tank this moke, I generally call for a burn unless dps is REALLY pathetic--like all sub-800dps. So far, I rarely lose anyone (other than mages, which are actually bonus points if they die on the first lightning thingum). I just did this one tonight and we smoked him like a cheap cigar: no casualties, minimal group damage, my health bar might have twitched on the nova thing (38-40k hp paladin tank). DPS all lived, even the clothie.

I can't say I pay much attention to what dps might be up to, but when i run on my shaman or DK I"m not concerned at all about the lightning nova whatsit. Of course, these are T10 dps (over 30k hps on the DK) with substantial self heals. Dunno. Back in 80 blues, yeah, the guy could be a pain, but nowadays...not seeing it. It's just burn him down. I can't remember the last time anyone bothered with running out.

Oh, and bad group thing. HToC. Not entirely confined to that instance, but noticed it tonight. Why, oh why, does dps insist on standing next to the tank in front of the mob? I see this quite a bit. Normally it's not a huge deal in heroics, but it's a really bad habit to get into. Now on the black knight, it's bad. He doesn't cleave, but the desecrate patch is pretty bad mojo. Don't stand next to me. I always try and pull him out and turn to the side. Stay at max melee, please. Lost a healer (shaman) and dps tonight. If I recall correctly, chain heal has a fairly good reach. Don't stand on my tail.

[apocrypha]

As a healer the only time I run to the tank is when the tank is not bothering (or noticing) the mob chewing on me. Happens a lot these days. If it's a DK or Pally tank then dragging said mob into their Death & Decay or Consecrate will pull it off me without them having to lift a finger.

Oh, and in UK, the Dragonflayer Overseers will charge healers/ranged DPS so I stand near them. Don't get charged that way :)

Problem at the moment is an extension of the Loken thing discussed above. Most groups outgear the content so much now that not much attention has to be paid to the mechanics. Standing in fire? Whatever, I have a bazillion hp and the healer has more mana than Jesus. Melee DPS don't bother to position properly because things like that Desecrate or the mob-parry effect don't really give many people any trouble.

I'm kinda looking forward to the early Cata dungeons, hoping that they'll be tough enough to wake the terribads up a bit.

[Simond]

Haha no, they'll just whinge to Blizzard non-stop until it's all nerfed.

[Paelos]

Haha no, they'll just whinge to Blizzard non-stop until it's all nerfed.

That will fall on deaf ears as usual. There were a lot of five mans that were really tough when WotLK hit. Halls of Lightning, Halls of Stone, Utgarde Pinnacle, and Gundrak all come to mind. More than once, my group just couldn't make it past the UP Skadi event because we were carrying a priest, and he couldn't cleanse the poisons.

[Zetor]

Azjol-Nerub was really harsh too. The skirmishers gibbed healers in 2 seconds if nobody had a stun or root ready (I -think- the enrage was non-dispellable at that point too), and even getting hit by a single poison volley on Anub was heavy damage that'd drain my priest's mana fast. The void boss in violet hold murdered groups that didn't kill the orbs quick enough (or were unlucky enough to have the healer get the debuff), etc etc. OTOH the heroics in BC were a lot harder and stayed hard until the end of the expansion (unless you had top-tier raid gear).

[Rendakor]

Is there some super sekret squirrel ability Loken has I"m not familiar with? Shared damage? I just don't recall.

When I tank this moke, I generally call for a burn unless dps is REALLY pathetic--like all sub-800dps. So far, I rarely lose anyone (other than mages, which are actually bonus points if they die on the first lightning thingum). I just did this one tonight and we smoked him like a cheap cigar: no casualties, minimal group damage, my health bar might have twitched on the nova thing (38-40k hp paladin tank). DPS all lived, even the clothie.

I can't say I pay much attention to what dps might be up to, but when i run on my shaman or DK I"m not concerned at all about the lightning nova whatsit. Of course, these are T10 dps (over 30k hps on the DK) with substantial self heals. Dunno. Back in 80 blues, yeah, the guy could be a pain, but nowadays...not seeing it. It's just burn him down. I can't remember the last time anyone bothered with running out.

Oh, and bad group thing. HToC. Not entirely confined to that instance, but noticed it tonight. Why, oh why, does dps insist on standing next to the tank in front of the mob? I see this quite a bit. Normally it's not a huge deal in heroics, but it's a really bad habit to get into. Now on the black knight, it's bad. He doesn't cleave, but the desecrate patch is pretty bad mojo. Don't stand next to me. I always try and pull him out and turn to the side. Stay at max melee, please. Lost a healer (shaman) and dps tonight. If I recall correctly, chain heal has a fairly good reach. Don't stand on my tail.

Loken has two abilities that are affected by range. First is his global aoe, shockwave or something. It constantly ticks for damage on the whole group, doing more damage the further away from him you are. This is why you'd want to be in melee range or as close as possible. He then periodically casts Lightning Nova, at which point you should run out, because it does more damage the closer you are. Now, if you just wanna stand in it, you can probably heal through it, but there's no good reason why a hunter would run IN during the nova.

[Zetor]

Yeah, on my hunter I just stand beyond the edge of the AOE (you can see it when he begins casting; it's 20 yards or so?) and don't move at all during the entire fight. If the healer's having trouble, I move in to 8y (closest possible shoot range) when he's not doing nova and disengage when he starts casting.

[Shrike]

Ahh, OK. I'm always melee so I never noticed the AoE thing. My hunter hasn't done instances since vanilla.

When I first started tanking instances on my paladin, it was normals at 78 (she's a smith, so she had full sets of saronite gear). I remember the first time I did HoL on her, I did run Loken up and down the white line. She had roughly 24-25k hps then, was def-capped, and it just seemed a waste of energy. The groups I was in seemed just fine on a burn, rather than trying to finesse the encounter. The only one that wasn't, I had to finish the fight solo, which the (now dead) group found rather entertaining.

[SurfD]

Loken has one other ability that most people never even notice:  Static Charge.  Puts a lightning debuff on a player, that ticks damage on them, and then jumps to someone else who is near by.   In dungeon blues / quest greens when first running it as heroic, having that jumping around in mele range could be dangerous, since it ticked for like 4k damage, so you also had to spread the mele around his hitbox far enough it wouldnt keep jumping.

[Morat20]

...both rings from the triumph vendor? Unless you are a spellcaster of some kind it is likely that whatever you are using as the 2nd ring is really suboptimal.

Better than what I had, was a major upgrade. *shrug*. The other T9 pieces I'm currently missing I have geared to 200 or so. The rings I was using was something like 154 and 171.

Re Loken: Yeah, there's the one you jump ON him for and the one you run away for. It's just a fucking kick in the teeth to play range games as a hunter.

Fuck, are you guys saying I can stand out of range of that shit? I thought the AoE scaled out well past my range. I got some seriously bad advice if that's the case.

[Ingmar]

If you're talking about the strength ring, it is likely that your 154 or 171 ring was actually still better for you, since strength does literally nothing for a hunter (doesn't even scale your pet).

Wearing a strength ring as a hunter is definitely one of those things that will definitely trigger bad behavior from group mates in randoms in any case, so you might want to check the AH for one of these: http://www.wowhead.com/item=37624/stained-glass-shard-ring - should be very cheap at this point.

[Ashamanchill]

Lol somehow I never learned the mechanics for Logan. I just kinda stood there doing me thing as a bear tank sayin to myself, 'please, whatever it is you do, if your going to kill me, kill someone else too so I dont look stupid.' I have yet to die on that boss.

[Morat20]

If you're talking about the strength ring, it is likely that your 154 or 171 ring was actually still better for you, since strength does literally nothing for a hunter (doesn't even scale your pet).

Wearing a strength ring as a hunter is definitely one of those things that will definitely trigger bad behavior from group mates in randoms in any case, so you might want to check the AH for one of these: http://www.wowhead.com/item=37624/stained-glass-shard-ring - should be very cheap at this point.

They can bite me. :) The massive boost to stamina was sorely needed, and I'm still not hit-capped. I'd have preferred agility, but the +hit and +crit is helpful. Admittedly, it is a crappy hunter ring. But it was better than what I had, and not totally useless. I'd have preferred two of the other ring though.

[Sjofn]

I just kinda stood there doing me thing as a bear tank sayin to myself, 'please, whatever it is you do, if your going to kill me, kill someone else too so I dont look stupid.' I have yet to die on that boss.

This is how I tank everything, only as a DK.



OK, no. But sometimes it feels like it. 

[WoopeeTuralyon]

These days, Loken requires no strategy, unless your healer is bad. They can heal through all his damage easily... faceroll of fun, right!

[Selby]

Someone told me I must have been buying my characters on eBay because of my gear choices.  I told them to fuck themselves as I proceeded to utterly destroy their rogue on DPS throughout the entire instance.  Really, people are complete assholes.

[Shrike]

Sometimes!

Of course, you do see some really strange gear choices or gemming strategies. The other day I was standing around in Dalaran waiting on a friend to get his dailies done so we could queue up for the random, and I'm inspecting people that look interesting to amuse myself. I spy an enhancement shaman with the crossed axes and think, hmmm, interesting. Little did I know...hey, it's a pure AGI gemmed build. Gee. Wow. No words. Hunh.

Just out of curiosilty I run this on enhsim. Geezus palomino that's bad. It'd probably work out pretty well come Cataclysm, but right now...not so much. You do see all kinds.

[Selby]

Seriously, I gear based on Rawr and just general knowledge of my class.  Sometimes that comes up with some interesting choices, but for the most part it's actually really damn close since I have my rotations down solid.  People are giving me shit over not rolling on certain 277 items and they don't understand... it's not a fucking upgrade!  Why waste my rolls on downgrades just to pad my GS?

[Yoshimaru]

Welp, the DK transformation is just about complete, just need to replace my gloves. I think the price for being ridiculously OP starting off is knowing you're never going to look as badass as when you first started.

I've gone from this

 

to this
    


I've tanked instances pretty exclusively up to 65 and I've been surprised at the overall quality of healers. I haven't had one group fall apart due to a healer. However, I HAVE had a lot of DPS taking it upon themselves to pull. Letting them tank whatever they hit seems to solve this rather fast. This is my first time tanking above the mid-20s and I have to say it's pretty enjoyable. It's nice having instant ques without the monotony of staring at health bars the entire time.

[Sjofn]

New pet peeve: Healers that harrass the tank to pull everything, then figure out the tank isn't actually that sturdy just like the tank said, and curse out the tank before ditching the group.

[Selby]

Those healers usually I say "you pull it, you tank it" and they either ditch or shut up.

[Paelos]

Obviously doing heroics with anything less than a 5500 gearscore is deemed unworthy these days. The spoiled brats who bitch about scores and whine constantly, I usually look at their gear and it's nothing to write home about. Very very rarely have a seen a decently geared, well-played healer bitch about anything.

[Shrike]

A lot of people expect to be carried. Seriously. I don't know exactly why, but I see so many healers that can barely function, or sub-1k dps in heroics, or even tanks that seem well-geared, but can't hold aggro and do really strange things (shotgun method of tanking: just try anything). So underachievers with a certain addon hedge their bets and only look for enablers. Or play random dungeon roulette until someone carries them along. I know I will, since I don't have all night to dump groups because of a few wankers.

The gogogogo thing I run into some, but mostly I just ignore it. I like things quick and orderly and just do them a certain way. Might take another 5 minutes over the course of the run, but so what? I'm comfortable and that's what counts (as the tank, of course). As dps, I just go with the flow. Actually, a little slower suits me well as a shaman, since otherwise I'm amost always under 25% on mana and it's difficult to get past that. On my DK, well, sometimes I get into trouble here, but mostly it's because I'm picking up on a changing situation more quickly than the tank. Saw this last night in AN on Anub. Tank was very slow on adds, so I ended up dealing with most of them. I was probably irritating him, but watching the healer constantly get attacked by adds isn't something I can leave alone.

[Morat20]

Feral Druid yesterday got booted from heroic Violet Hold -- after two warnings -- because he was doing...60 DPS. 

Yeah, not a typo. The tank actually asked if anyone else was running recount, because he didn't believe it. No idea how he managed it, since even auto-attack would hit for like 7 or 8 times that much damage. The fucking priest was doing more damage, and it wasn't like there was confusion over who was the healer since the druid spent the whole time in cat form.

Maybe that was it. Maybe the fucker was in travel form.

[kildorn]

After 2-3 pulls, the healer and tank should have a feel for the other, and pull appropriately.

Mass pulling right off with a pug healer, or demanding a tank you just met pull X amount just screams "I'm used to this and fuck the idea that it takes multiple parts to make it work"

Now, I'll push a tank on my healer if they're geared, because healing a tank when the healer and tank are both decently geared can be Freaking Boring if they're playing it safe or slow <3


And travel form should be over 60 dps. Did they have a fishing pole equipped?