Bad Groups

[Minvaren]

After twice of this happening this week...

How do you gauge whether your group has enough DPS to actually complete HoR (reg)?

[Selby]

How do you gauge whether your group has enough DPS to actually complete HoR (reg)?

I would say 3k from each easily.  The way you *know* is if you get all the mobs down before the Lich King starts to 1-shot people, but just because someone has a good DPS number doesn't mean this is easily accomplish anyways, especially if the tank can't manage mob aggro and the abominations run wild.

[Minvaren]

I would say 3k from each easily.  The way you *know* is if you get all the mobs down before the Lich King starts to 1-shot people, but just because someone has a good DPS number doesn't mean this is easily accomplish anyways, especially if the tank can't manage mob aggro and the abominations run wild.

Well, I'm the tank in this case.   

I grab all aboms as they come in and generally have stuns/silences going on a witch doctor.  It's just frustrating when the LK arrives on wave 4 and you've still got 4-6 mobs up and mostly undamaged.  Guessing Recount is the best for measuring DPS?

[Selby]

Guessing Recount is the best for measuring DPS?

It helps.  Not a definite red flag if the DPS is still high.  Some people start to AFK when inconvenient or break down and panic when that many mobs come at them.  You have to trust your tank and healer, let them do their job, then do yours.

[Shrike]

After twice of this happening this week...

How do you gauge whether your group has enough DPS to actually complete HoR (reg)?

There's a "feel" if the dps has what it takes. Since I"m normally dps, I have their view of this, but if the group feels like its struggling to finish the first waves off, then it's in trouble. It doesn't get better. I've had a couple like this. It can be for a variety of reasons other than undergeared dps, too. Not focusing on targets (get the casters down first, then work the aboms on /assist, etc.).

Really switched on dps can take the witch doctors solo and take them down plenty fast--with interrupts. If this isn't happening, then you're probably in trouble. Groups really heavy on AoE damage can generally smoke the witch doctors when melee focuses the aboms. If that isn't happening, then you're probably in trouble. Well geared groups can brute force this encounter, not-so-well-geared groups can finesse the encounter (unlikely with the usual PuG types, but it can happen), those that can't get it together will fail here.

Frankly, I don't like this instance and fortunatley rarely see it. I'm about 75% on success here, but bad groups in HoR are really, really painful. Guild groups make it a joy, but I rarely get that opportunity.

[Minvaren]

There's a "feel" if the dps has what it takes. Since I"m normally dps, I have their view of this, but if the group feels like its struggling to finish the first waves off, then it's in trouble. It doesn't get better. I've had a couple like this. It can be for a variety of reasons other than undergeared dps, too. Not focusing on targets (get the casters down first, then work the aboms on /assist, etc.).

Yeah, I got the same "feel" about both of these groups.  And (pfeh I sound elitist now) the gearscores on most/all of the DPS in these groups probably would not have let you queue directly for the instance.  I was trying to look for something objective to point at and go, "you must be this tall to board this ride."

It's even more of a PITA that losing any party member in waves 1-3 of the escape will all but hose you on wave 4, and it's an extreme demoralizer when you see someone go "lol fell off the cliff" after wave 1...  Just gimme the shield and I will be done with that instance.

[Ingmar]

How do you gauge whether your group has enough DPS to actually complete HoR (reg)?

I would say 3k from each easily.  The way you *know* is if you get all the mobs down before the Lich King starts to 1-shot people, but just because someone has a good DPS number doesn't mean this is easily accomplish anyways, especially if the tank can't manage mob aggro and the abominations run wild.

For *regular* HoR you can do it with 2k dpsers.

[Kageh]

You can do H-HoR with 2k DPSers really close too, if the people are halfway competent. I did it myself once with 2 healers and 2 dps because the designated healer wasn't able to keep up, so the shadow priest switched to healing. We had a couple trash always up on Falric/Marwyn, and the last group at LK escape was really close, but we made it.

P.S. Isn't tank shield from Marwyn in non-heroic? Or are you talking another shield? Cause that one is easily farmable since non-heroic.

[Ingmar]

It is from non-heroic, yes, and he's been talking about non-heroic from the start, that's why he put (reg) after HoR.

The problem with easily farming it in random groups is the people you get for random regular level 80 instances are a REALLY mixed bag, it isn't nearly as predictable as what turns up in heroics.

[Kageh]

Ack, sorry, you are right. Misread that from the start (my brain melted after 12 hours at work) and I was positive I read "heroic" somewhere!

[K9]

HoR, my priest, prot paladin in heroic ICC gear, 2 rets and a hunter. Group insists on using alcove to handle the waves, including the tank.

*cry*

[ezrast]

Every HoR group I've ever been in has used Falric's alcove except for one time when the tank and two DPS were guilded. That group had a DK to pull the casters in though. I wish I had a tank so I could force people to do it the normal way and see what happens.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Jesus fucking christ.

I have a 56 priest healer and  EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TANK in the 50-60 range seems to think they are a goddamn superman. Running around, picking up 4 packs of mobs at a time and then even running out of line of sight. I burn a goddamn pain suppression on them and I still cant spam heals fast enough to keep them alive.

Are tanks not used to being challenged? Are they too used to playing at 80 or sub 50 where mobs arent too tough?

I need answers before I pull out what hair I have left.

[Selby]

HoR, my priest, prot paladin in heroic ICC gear, 2 rets and a hunter. Group insists on using alcove to handle the waves, including the tank.

My raid leader and some guildies got into this, I bitched about the alcove and he says "fine, we're doing it on the altar in the middle."  Let's just say that doing it there is NOT a good idea.  No deaths, no wipes, but by the first boss we were all like "wow this sucks."  I then suggested doing the entrance for better management and it was easy mode again.

Are they too used to playing at 80 or sub 50 where mobs arent too tough?

This.  They are used to raid geared healers and DPS, combined with an impatience to actually spend more than 15-20 minutes in an instance.  Those old world instances are LONG in some cases, and it just exacerbates the problem.

[Minvaren]

Are they too used to playing at 80... where mobs arent too tough?

Level 80 plus epic gear for a tank = "Hey, I wonder if I can pull all of (this instance) solo."

I finally went back to H VH today to kick that achievement to the curb.  Cleared it (w00t), but had problems keeping the HP up due to the Druid who was DPSing instead of healing...   

[K9]

VH is undoubtedly the easiest heroic, I guess it's a comfort thing to have the healer healing and not DPSing. On my shaman I usually heal VH, Strat and some others as enhance. It depends a bit on the group, but generally with 4 DPS shit dies so fast that there isn't enough time for the tank's hp buffer to drop to zero.

[ezrast]

Makes me wish I wasn't dual specced resto/resto. I spend a lot of time browsing the interweb while healing dungeons, or watching my lava burst crit for 4k.

[K9]

PvE/PVP?

Come to the dark side, enhance is a pretty damn fun spec.

[Sheepherder]

Maelstrom weapon heals are win.

[ezrast]

Hmm. It'd give me a use for emblems and I could stop thinking about the new BG system altogether...

I'll think about it.

[Minvaren]

VH is undoubtedly the easiest heroic, I guess it's a comfort thing to have the healer healing and not DPSing.

I don't mind bandaging between portals if you tell me you're going DPS.  But when I see my HP go way below 40% during a boss fight with no soothing green numbers in sight, I brace for a wipe.  RDF conditioning.

[Sheepherder]

Maelstrom weapon heals, dude.

[kildorn]

Jesus fucking christ.

I have a 56 priest healer and  EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TANK in the 50-60 range seems to think they are a goddamn superman. Running around, picking up 4 packs of mobs at a time and then even running out of line of sight. I burn a goddamn pain suppression on them and I still cant spam heals fast enough to keep them alive.

Are tanks not used to being challenged? Are they too used to playing at 80 or sub 50 where mobs arent too tough?

I need answers before I pull out what hair I have left.

I think it's around 73/74ish when tanks go back to being WOO I ROCK, then a rough jump from 80 normal to 80 heroic. But now that I'm back in wrath on my paladin, I'm happily chain pulling groups all day long with nothing more than a renew or a riptide/earthshield to my name. The problem seems to be that in the TBC gap, the blue instance rewards SUCK (at least armor wise, it's got broken scaling. I was getting bracers out of it at 67 that were worse than Strath blues) and there's not much a tank can do to cheese stam stacking or defense stats. But the second you hit 70 it's crafted tank sets to the rescue and you're sitting at unbuffed 20-30% avoid/15%block with stamina everywhere.

What I have heard about (yay for not seeing it since I queue tank only), are DPS queued as tanks who make the instance absolutely hellish.

[Ingmar]

The dungeon bag rewards are broken at 60-69 yes - they give you an ilvl 60-69 item, because someone at Blizzard forgot that the ilvl scale changes once you hit Outland, and still hasn't fixed it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Re:dps tanks.

I was in two groups today as a 56 healer. One was a ret pally thinking he could tank...he couldn't. The other was a warrior using a two hander with something like a 15/15/10 spec.

 

Also...I can't tell you how often i inspect people and they have unspent talent points.

[Evildrider]

The dungeon bag rewards are broken at 60-69 yes - they give you an ilvl 60-69 item, because someone at Blizzard forgot that the ilvl scale changes once you hit Outland, and still hasn't fixed it.

And if you are me, you get gloves.. and only gloves.

[SurfD]

The dungeon bag rewards are broken at 60-69 yes - they give you an ilvl 60-69 item, because someone at Blizzard forgot that the ilvl scale changes once you hit Outland, and still hasn't fixed it.

And if you are me, you get gloves.. and only gloves.

Could be like my rogue. I got lots and lots of shoulders (which are useless, since i have the Heirloom ones) and every single fucking ring or neck iIgot had spellpower on it. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE.

[Rasix]

Also...I can't tell you how often i inspect people and they have unspent talent points.

Hah, I've never checked for that.  But I don't think that'd be a common phenomenom in heroics (I suppose I could be surprised). 

My favorite usually goes something like this:

Me: "Why are you casting so many down level spells?"
Rankwatch_alert: "I just turned 80."
Me: "You [fucking|goddamn], [lazy|stupid|rude] [fucker|twat|asshole]."

[Ironwood]

I fucking hate rankwatch and rankwatch pedants.

I dinged in the middle of a fucking DUNGEON and got shit for it for the rest of the run.

Dude, I can't buy my new ranks during a run.  You Cunt.

[Selby]

Well, there is a difference between just freshly dinging in a dungeon and using a spell 3-4 ranks below max ;-)

[Rasix]

I fucking hate rankwatch and rankwatch pedants.

I dinged in the middle of a fucking DUNGEON and got shit for it for the rest of the run.

Dude, I can't buy my new ranks during a run.  You Cunt.

I'm obviously talking about a situation where someone could level in the dungeon.  Or I'm talking about a Northrend heroic. You pick.

[Ironwood]

I'm was just saying.  He kept the whisper functionality on THE ENTIRE FUCKING DUNGEON FOR AIMED SHOT AND STEADY SHOT.

Feel free to think I'm talking about YOU being a pick.

It's entirely your call.

You Pricks.

 

[Lantyssa]

You should have sent him a tell after every time:  "I'll learn it when I get out of this dungeon I just leveled in or you can wait fifteen minutes while I pop out to train. (Or you can turn your damn notification off.  Your call.)"  Every time.

[K9]

He might have been a dick who fiddled with the delay parameter. My rankwatch won't make any noise more than once every five minutes or so, and it broadcasts to say rather than a whisper.

It's going off less than it used to, although I did get a gnome warlock the other day who had almost every ability downranked and got a bit cheesed off. I'm with Rasix though, if you're in a heroic you don't have any excuse for having abilities at anything less than max rank.

[Ironwood]

I don't disagree.