Bad Groups

[Ingmar]

I have no idea what character I'd give it to really, as I'm not sold on what class is going to be my main in Cat.  

You give it to your ele shaman of course, since its his only post-219 non raid upgrade. Unless you count that stupid mp5 dagger.

well.... this is only true is you assume Shamans have to use MH+Shield

My Shaman is using the heroic version of Enlightenment, which is really pretty sweet for resto and elemental shaman.

If I wanted to use a staff I'd play my moonkin!

Re: blood tanks, yes they take more damage, sort of. They have a much larger effective health pool than other DK specs, though, so it typically all works out.

EDIT: Also if you're doing content that tanks overgear, DKs in general will appear much squishier than they really are on hard content, because the other 3 tanks all have a block mechanism that tends to trivialize most of the mobs in the original heroics because they don't hit hard enough to get through the block value. DKs don't have that so when they pull the room they take a fair amount of damage still.

[Rendakor]

Blood has a much stronger cooldown than Frost as well.

[Sheepherder]

Not for heroics, which I think is where the complaint is probably coming from.

[Minvaren]

Got in a random yesterday with a paladin tank who was mostly in ICC-10 gear with a few ToCG-10 things. It was UK. He takes off at a clip through the instance, running all the way to the first boss without stopping at all. Not once.

I see you grouped with the guy I grouped with for Terrokar Turkey Time...  2 wipes later, he pulls the boss mob before everyone can suit up.  Then wanted us to pay him 10g each for the run.   

My guild has found the cure for complaining about bad DPS in randoms.  We just started all running our RDF groups together.

 

[Lantyssa]

Yesterday I grouped with yet another Blood Tank DWing two Rimefangs, complete with +Block plate gear and specced into 2H specialization.    I was ecstatic when later on that night we actually grouped with a DW DK tank with a good Frost spec!

She was so happy to find a dual wielding DK with the spec for it.  I was giggling about it for a while.  He was pretty friendly, too, which was nice.

[SurfD]

EDIT: Also if you're doing content that tanks overgear, DKs in general will appear much squishier than they really are on hard content, because the other 3 tanks all have a block mechanism that tends to trivialize most of the mobs in the original heroics because they don't hit hard enough to get through the block value. DKs don't have that so when they pull the room they take a fair amount of damage still.

I wouldnt really count Savage Defense as much of a "block" mechanic for druids, considering it only lasts for 1 hit, can not be stacked, and is used up by ANY amount of damage taken.

Against any decent number of mobs, it is not going to account for much of anything in the way of mitigation.

[SurfD]

I tanked regular AN yesterday and I found myself with a Moonkin druid DPS.  I know how to tank and I'm pretty good at it.

I'm not familiar though with how current Moonkins do as DPS, because this fucking Moonkin, no matter how much I tried kept pulling aggro from me.  He was equal to my TPS and about double the next DPS.  He could pull aggro from me after thunderclap, shockwave and one devastate. 

Do Moonkin have shitty aggro control and/or was he specced wrong?  I've never had a DPS pull aggro from me unless they were retarded and attacked before I did.

Moonkin have exactly 1 talent that reduces their threat  (It reduces their threat and increases their range).  Quite often a raid moonkin can chose not to spend points in that specific talent if they know their tanks hold good threat (gives them 2 free talent points to spend somewhere else).   It is possible you ran into a moonkin not specced for threat reduction.  Add to that that the nature of eclipse means that we can (if we get lucky) start ripping off 14k starfire crits every 2 seconds for a good 12 seconds strait while dots are rolling within a few seconds of starting in on a mob and we can be threat monsters on a short burst fight.

[Lantyssa]

The new set bonus which lets our Moonfire ticks crit and the frost token idol which gives us a sustainable +220 crit very early in a fight helps (hurts?) with that, too.

[Ingmar]

EDIT: Also if you're doing content that tanks overgear, DKs in general will appear much squishier than they really are on hard content, because the other 3 tanks all have a block mechanism that tends to trivialize most of the mobs in the original heroics because they don't hit hard enough to get through the block value. DKs don't have that so when they pull the room they take a fair amount of damage still.

I wouldnt really count Savage Defense as much of a "block" mechanic for druids, considering it only lasts for 1 hit, can not be stacked, and is used up by ANY amount of damage taken.

Against any decent number of mobs, it is not going to account for much of anything in the way of mitigation.

On a pack of lame old heroic mobs that you're swiping, with typical druid crit levels, it actually does absorb rather a lot of damage. Enough to make a significant difference in what a healer will see compared to a similarly-geared blood tank, anyway.

[Sheepherder]

Yeah, swiping 3+ mobs you're likely to see a block every 1.5 seconds, probably completely absorbing the damage.  That's low only compared to a Paladin or Warrior with cooldowns popped.

[Fordel]

I wouldnt really count Savage Defense as much of a "block" mechanic for druids, considering it only lasts for 1 hit, can not be stacked, and is used up by ANY amount of damage taken.

Which is exactly how actual blocking works as well.

[fuser]

I'm getting sick of DPS wasting space. Last night I was graced in heroic Nexus a DK that contributed 5% of overall damage (barely beating the pally healer) with an amazing 1.4k DPS on the boss he woke up on.

The 15min cool down timer shouldn't effect the ability to kick someone.


Oh yeah, leveling up an alt and having greedy asses need on everything where the NBG rolls don't effect dungeons pre 60 is ticking me off.

[Dren]

To add to lewting rules issues:

I've been running a lot of dailies and higher end instances to get more purples with my Shaman healer.  I really don't like the fact that I can't roll need on leather items.  Since it isn't mail, I can't roll.  That's even though there are only cloth or plate wearers in the group with me!  Sometimes I can negotiate a trade with whomever wins it, but between the pain of making the tank stop and figuring out who got it and talk to them about a swap, etc. NO THANKS.

The way tanks run the instances, you'd think they have to finish in 5 minutes or die....in RL!  This new LFG tool is 10x better than ever before, but it has certainly changed the game in one fell swoop.  It seems like it is making everone a hardcore instance raider by default.

[Kail]

I really don't like the fact that I can't roll need on leather items.  Since it isn't mail, I can't roll.  That's even though there are only cloth or plate wearers in the group with me!  Sometimes I can negotiate a trade with whomever wins it, but between the pain of making the tank stop and figuring out who got it and talk to them about a swap, etc. NO THANKS.

It would be nice if "greed" rolls took precedent over "disenchant" rolls.  And maybe make enchanting mats vendorable for more than the base item, so people don't automatically roll "greed" on everything.

And again, I really, really wish there was a "difficulty" slider or something, where you could select the level of the dungeon you want to run.  Especially when leveling, the difference between hitting a 72-ish dungeon like Nexus versus a 76-ish dungeon like Drak'Tharon at level 74 is massive.  My tank got his first piece of T9 a while back, decided he might give heroic tanking a shot, queued up, and was dropped into Heroic Halls of Reflection.  Yeah, that's not happening.

And it's kind of annoying to me not being able to use the LfG tool before level 15... Instance leveling is way, way fast now, and classes like priests and warriors are still boring as hell to play solo without any of their DPS talents.

[Sheepherder]

DTK is meant for 74+.

[Rasix]

Having 60% of your group unable to understand or type in English can be a bit frustrating when they don't seem to understand the mechanics of a fight. 

[WindupAtheist]

You know what I like? The fact that the old "everyone pass on blues and then /roll" thing some people would insist upon is deader than shit. Fuck those people.

[Malakili]

You know what I like? The fact that the old "everyone pass on blues and then /roll" thing some people would insist upon is deader than shit. Fuck those people.

It made sense a long time ago, and old habits die hard, but with good gear raining down on WoW players like candy after breaking a pinata, it frankly doesn't matter anymore if someone ninjas something, or if someone accidentally hits need instead of greed.  After badges, everything else is just gravy.  (Not saying its a bad thing).

[Ingmar]

You know what I like? The fact that the old "everyone pass on blues and then /roll" thing some people would insist upon is deader than shit. Fuck those people.

It made sense a long time ago

It never made sense, it was always retarded and a big old honking gift on a silver platter to loot ninjas besides.

[Nebu]

It never made sense, it was always retarded and a big old honking gift on a silver platter to loot ninjas besides.

This.  Blizzard went out of their way to add a mechanic to limit the effects of ninja looting... so people bypass it and complain?!?!  Gamers are an odd bunch. 

[Kail]

It made sense from a standpoint that you didn't always know what was going to drop before the enemy died, so sometimes you'd have to discuss who needed what and so on.  But now that you can trade items after you've picked them up, you can just roll and then have that discussion afterwards if you think someone made a mistake.

[Nebu]

It made sense from a standpoint that you didn't always know what was going to drop before the enemy died, so sometimes you'd have to discuss who needed what and so on.  But now that you can trade items after you've picked them up, you can just roll and then have that discussion afterwards if you think someone made a mistake.

That works well among friends or with guildmates.  Not so much in a random pug.  We learned that from EQ.

[Fordel]

It made sense from a standpoint that you didn't always know what was going to drop before the enemy died, so sometimes you'd have to discuss who needed what and so on.  But now that you can trade items after you've picked them up, you can just roll and then have that discussion afterwards if you think someone made a mistake.

The roll bar has like a 5 min wait time before it auto passes you. If you can't figure out who the loot goes to in that time 

[Sheepherder]

Need/Greed seems to be working fine.  I got a tanking ring today from a hunter who needed on it.  He claimed it was a misclick, but you never know with hunters.

If you need five minutes to figure out where you want to loot a Spiteblade, you are retarded.

[March]

Need/Greed seems to be working fine.  I got a tanking ring today from a hunter who needed on it.  He claimed it was a misclick, but you never know with hunters.

If you need five minutes to figure out where you want to loot a Spiteblade, you are retarded.

I think Dren's original point was that some classes will dip into an armor tier below their assigned... like Druids rolling on cloth.  Though I agree that with the ability to trade, the actual problems are minimal... just slightly annoying that a Druid healer in an all plate group cant need an obvious cloth upgrade - and while trading is a theoretical option, you can't trade the item when the pally turned it into an Abyss Crystal.

[Ingmar]

Yeah, where it breaks is when there's disenchanting going on and someone wants to drop down an armor level. Really the only issue.

[Dren]

Yes, that's what I meant.  But not only is the disenchant going to put all questions to rest, most PuG groups are sprinting through instances.  I typically heal them so I'm doing everything I can to stay up with the tank.  I never have a chance to actually type, "Hey, I could use that hand slot item that dropped back there!"

A few times I have and gets ignored.  Last boss drops, we get our emblems and everyone drops out of group without a word.  I'm stuck sitting there with a blue hand slot item still.  RAT FARTS!!!

[Simond]

Need first, then explain. 

E: Have I mentioned the time I died on Hadronox because I was busily typing "Hey, does anyone mind if I need this loot for my other spec?" and AMS faded before the poison clouds did? 

[Dren]

Need first, then explain. 

E: Have I mentioned the time I died on Hadronox because I was busily typing "Hey, does anyone mind if I need this loot for my other spec?" and AMS faded before the poison clouds did? 

You can't need on a leather item if you can wear chain.  That's my point.  I'm forced to greed on it just like everyone else, but I'm the only one that can actually use the item (no mana using druids in the group.)  If there is an enchanter in the group, the item gets destroyed before I can say anything about it.  4 people would have clicked disenchant before I could type anything.  There's no going back at that point.

Yes, greed should override disenchant.  It will be rare that somebody will want a green item over an enchanting mat to use or sell. However:

BOE blue or Purple ---> can AH or use on alts
BOP blue or purple ---> lower armor rank, but still way better than what I currently have

[Nevermore]

Is it even possible to trade items to someone from another server in the same group?  I ask because a mage I was grouped with couldn't trade water, but maybe that's because it was a conjured item?

[Dren]

Is it even possible to trade items to someone from another server in the same group?  I ask because a mage I was grouped with couldn't trade water, but maybe that's because it was a conjured item?

I know you can trade the dropped items, because I've done it.  Not sure on the water though.  Never tried that.  Normally it is a water table I'm grabbing from.

[Rendakor]

The mage lied to you, conjured items and loot that dropped inside are both tradeable.

Edit: If Greed took priority over disenchant, Enchanters would just hit Greed then DE things themselves, regardless of what the people in the rest of the group want. This would then cause EVERYONE to go back to hitting greed. The easier fix would be to remove people's ability to use lower-tier armor outright.

Edit2: conjured, not consumable 

[Jayce]

I'd say that greed and disenchant should be equal. If you click either, the roll should be compared against others of either greed or disenchant and the winner gets either the item or the shard.


I'm guessing that the mage couldn't give the water because he summoned it before entering the instance?  Or maybe they are assuming that tables are the solution to that issue and you can't trade anything except the drops from that instance.

[Rendakor]

Jayce, that is how it works now. Greed and Disenchant are equal. Players are able to trade water because tables do not appear until higher levels.

[Jayce]

Jayce, that is how it works now. Greed and Disenchant are equal. Players are able to trade water because tables do not appear until higher levels.

Oh, I misinterpreted what Dren said. The issue is only when the item isn't something you can Need because it's not your primary armor type?