Bad Groups

[Fordel]

I wait for shockwave specifically as a DPS. I haven't taken agro accidentally in forever.



Now purposefully ...

[Selby]

Of course if he doesn't use those... could be a long night.

Or pallies that refuse to use consecrate... at all.

[Gobbeldygook]

My favorite so far was a mage who deliberately ignored my marks for an entire instance.  He was actively avoiding DPSing the skull in favor of another target on every single pull.

[Rendakor]

I just let people like that die.

As dps I wait for the relevant AOE before dpsing (D&D, Thunderclap, Consecrate, <insert whatever bears do here>); however, this doesn't work for an arms warrior. Clicking bladestorm on any trash pull was generally a death sentence, which is the primary reason my warrior is now just an alchy bot.

[Sjofn]

Bears are a little hard to tell, since their main thing is swipe, which doesn't leave any telltale signs of having been done, and doesn't have any easy to see animation. I try to remember to demo roar after swiping twice as some vaguel clue I've done something, personally.

[Rendakor]

Wow, nightmare run in H HoS. Had a hunter parsing ~900, dc's twice before we even make it to the first boss, pulls aggro on trash even with her mediocre dps, runs into adds and gets herself killed, etc. The only thing she was missing from the stereotypical huntard was a named like Legolasxx.

When the tank and I realize she's terrible and start talking shit, the healer points out that he and the other dps are guilded with the huntard. So not only can we not votekick the bad, we can't even talk shit or risk being votekicked. The tank's probably safe, by virtue of being the rare class, but as a solo dps? Of course I shut right up. Sigh.

Edit: FUCK it gets worse; the pally tank is using kings on himself instead of sanc.  I was wondering why he was going oom and not consecrating during Brann's event.

[Sheepherder]

So, I go and get my (combat) rogue another epic dagger so I can roll Mutilate.  In the process I find four to five groups where I'm doing 35-40% of the damage.  Fuck me.

[Simond]

Since WoW by default doesn't have Target of Target visible, it is the tank's duty to mark the mob they're fighting imo. I have Raid Target: Skull bound to a hotkey and just tap it on whatever I'm attacking so the DPS knows what to hit.

Since WoW by default doesn't have Target of Target visible, it is the tank's duty to mark the mob they're fighting imo. I have Raid Target: Skull bound to a hotkey and just tap it on whatever I'm attacking so the DPS knows what to hit.

Or you could target the tank and press F. You're waiting a few seconds anyway. I mark skulls (and have a full set of our raid marks bound) when its REALLY IMPORTANT to, but if DPS can be lazy about pushing one button, I can be too. 

Um, is that an assist key? I rebound F to 'Follow Target' when I first installed and haven't really looked in the keybindings window.

Fakeedit: yea, I guess it is. I don't have assist bound at all. Of course, when I dps, I do it as a rogue and I just TotT every pull, so aggro isn't an issue.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're part of the problem.

(And 'F' is assist because 'F' was assist in EQ. A lot of the default keybinding are identical to EQ).

[Drubear]

re: Raid Marks.

Also, wasn't there a change to the icon marking that anyone in the group (? raid?) can do it now? You don't have to be leader or assistant to do it?

Might be amusing to show the tank/healer/whatever that there are still a couple things to learn about creakey ol' WoW!

[Rendakor]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're part of the problem.

(And 'F' is assist because 'F' was assist in EQ. A lot of the default keybinding are identical to EQ).

How? As DPS I use a threat transfer to not pull hate, and as a tank I mark mobs. What, exactly, am I doing wrong?

On keybindings, I've noticed that. I never got why auto-run is Num Lock, instead of something sane like R by default, but I suppose it coming from EQ makes sense. I generally use the same keybinding setup in every MMO, and just spend the first 5 minutes or so logged in fixing it.

[Jayce]

Also, wasn't there a change to the icon marking that anyone in the group (? raid?) can do it now? You don't have to be leader or assistant to do it?

Confirmed. As a tank I can mark whether I'm the group leader or not, and others have helpfully chipped in when I was the leader but wasn't 100% familiar with kill order.

[apocrypha]

Yeah, I've got a key bound to mark skull now and, as healer, I regularly mark targets up so that the DPS can ignore them 

[El Gallo]

Assist doesn't always work, at least with warrior tanks.  I'm often targetting something other than the main target.  Less than pre-Wrath, but still a good bit.   

[Sheepherder]

The good warrior tanks have been trained by the last four years of WoW to be tabbing through their targets constantly.  Don't expect them to stop any time soon.

[Zetor]

Ditto with druids; yeah, swipe holds pretty good aggro by itself (at least against heal aggro and ranged AOErs) and glyphed maul hits two targets, but against 3+ targets a bear will be tabbing through things to ensure that all mobs get some maul lovin'. Even against two targets there's some tabbing to keep lacerate up on both (see http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51269 )

[Jayce]

The good warrior tanks have been trained by the last four years of WoW to be tabbing through their targets constantly.  Don't expect them to stop any time soon.

I've found that I got back in the habit of doing so, if for no other reason than to check Omen to see if someone's pulled aggro without me noticing.  If it's the same person over and over - I know who my vigilance target should be.

[Simond]

Ah, but good warrior tanks are rare.
There are, however, a lot of primadonnas who coasted back when warriors were the only realistic tanks and now think "thunderclap + shockwave = time to turn on autoattack and tab back to the porn". For those type of warriors, you do need to use assist. 

"Why not just boot them?" Enjoy the ten minute wait for a new tank.

[Rasix]

Just had a tank that would target the corpse of the mob we just killed while body pulling the next group.  It'd take him 3-4 seconds to even put down his D&D.  I'm hoping he was just lagged, because it was some of the worst situational awareness I've ever seen. And yah, it was a dual wield DK sporting two mugs. 

[dd0029]

Whomever it was that mentioned DPSing as a prot pally.  I blame you.  Its all your fault.  I had never seen that before the holiday.  I have now seen three of these morons.

[Nevermore]

I was in a group yesterday with a DK tank specced Unholy yet he was dual wielding.  He used Army of the Dead every single time it was up, which made it really difficult for me since the taunting moved the mobs every which way and meant I had to Mangle spam instead of Shred.  He also loved using Corpse Explosion which I'd never seen any DK spec before, let alone a tank. 

The other DK was a brand new 80 and likely a fairly young kid.  He refused to get out of Frost Presence and had less than 750 dps.  This was surprising considering all the spellpower gear he had on.    His brother, the Mage, told us not to worry about it.  The Mage ended up doing about 900 dps.

Luckily, this took place in Culling of Strath and we still finished it with just one death (the tank; I just shifted to bear and held aggro better than he did the entire rest of the run  ).  It was also a credit to the healer for being patient and sticking it out and also being good enough to heal that mess.

[Lantyssa]

Then she looked at my DK spec and cried for humanity.  True story.

[Minvaren]

Jeez, this got long.  Thanks in advance for reading it all.

I'm a lurker who's been reading this forum/thread for awhile.  Mainly to prepare myself, as I actually got my main (prot warrior) to 80 and didn't burn out this time.  Being unguilded as I mainly solo, I started running dailies for rep rewards, playing the AH, and raising my BS to gear myself up, to see what this whole "endgame" thing was about that I'd never participated in before.  Oh sure, I PUGged a bit through BC days in regulars and a couple heroics, but raiding and whatnot was never my major thing.

Then 3.3 came and they made the change to dungeon finder.  Well, looks like running the regulars got a bit easier.  I do some tankspot reading, and grab Omen.  I progress through the regs one at a time, making sure to make notes of where the bosses are, what crazy things they do, how to keep agro off of the rest of the party, how to get it back when I do lose it, and trying to ignore the mouthy kids who most always had a complaint about >something< that I did (only once that something being a wipe).

So after a month of this, I hit the 540 def cap last night, 22K hp unbuffed as well.  Check a couple sites - yep, just barely cleared for heroics.  I research online as to where to start, and a few sites agreed : Violet Hold.  Skim some stuff on it, just looks like stronger mobs and an extra boss.  Well, about the same as Heroic Ramps back in the day.  I take a deep breath of courage, and queue for it.  Whoa!  They weren't kidding about tanks on heroics - it was about 3 seconds and a group was up.  I check ready and we all pop in.

First thing out of my mouth in the instance : "Hi guys, I've run this on normal a few times, but not on heroic - yell if you see me doing something stupid.  :)"  I ID the healer, drop vigilance on them (a mistake in retrospect), and the others start buffing.  First DPS : "Uh, if you're new to heroics, you won't be able to hold agro."  I raise an eyebrow, say "we'll see what happens," and make a note to watch this DPS.  The guards charge out of the instance and the first portal pops.

One of the DPS is already halfway to the portal.  I beat feet, heroic throw at the nearest mob, wait for the crowd to approach, and before I can get shockwave off, the DPS has already pulled one of the mobs onto him.  Taunt it back to me, swing around, cleave the masses, shockwave, enrage, shield slam on the taunted mob.  Omen shows me just slightly ahead.

And the DPS pulls it off of me again as taunt fades.  The DPS starts in, "What the !@#$, can't you hold agro?  Are you even in tank spec?"  The mobs get mowed down somehow, and I start to type out "can we all focus on one target and let me pull?"  Too late, the next portal is up and the rogue has gotten something stuck to him already.  After that, it's a repeat of the first pull.  DPS starts mouthing off again.

I scan party mana and health bars quickly, and then the heroic mode boss that I've never seen before pops, and it's Xevozz.  "Oh !@#$," says someone who'd been keeping quiet until now, "I hate this guy."  He activates 2" from my nose, and I actually get full agro on him for a change and start setting up for a long fight.  "Move" appears in my window from the same player, so I start slowly dragging him away from the group.  "Kite him" appears next, so I drag faster.  "No, the other way" as the boss enrages and I faceplant.  The party wipes.

DPS pipes up again : "maybe you should stay away from heroics until you hit def cap" along with other insults.  I reply, "I am at def cap.  Thanks for your concern," and bail from the group, eating the 20g and 10 minutes.

I figure I'll stay out of heroics unless I join a guild going forward.  Possibly regulars too.  I deal with children all day at work, I have no desire to do so when I get home.

[Selby]

I scan party mana and health bars quickly, and then the heroic mode boss that I've never seen before pops, and it's Xevozz.

In all fairness that is probably the worst boss you can get for that instance.  And yes, you do have to kite him around.  But if you are new, the DPS should have known better and held back appropriately (I always do).  Everyone zerging everything down is a pet peeve of mine when it comes to new tanks since it's making things harder for them than it has to be.

[Lantyssa]

You told them you were new and yet they went after mobs before you had touched them.  My gear sucks, a little less than a month ago but still..., and I still give the tank a few seconds before I start throwing things at the mobs.  Your DPS were idiots.

[Ironwood]

Lots of words to say 'I met some assholes online'

Hey, dude, you met some assholes online.  I'm a fucking awesome tank and it doesn't sound to ME that you did much wrong.

Fuck 'em.

The good thing about being a tank is you queue up and in ANOTHER 3 seconds you get another group.  Try again.

Don't let assholes wear you down.  There's too many of them in the world for that.

[Nevermore]

Yeah, that was on the DPS.  When I see the tank is a Warrior I always at least wait to see the shockwave animation before moving in to DPS.

I'd also say that Utgarde Keep or Nexus might be a bit easier to start out tanking.  VH can potentially be the easiest but it all depends on which random bosses you get, and some of the bosses can be downright mean (you got the worst of them with Xevozz).  Besides that, you can't set your own pace in VH which as you unfortunately found out can be annoying.

[Minvaren]

Thanks to everyone for the support.   

In hindsight, I probably should have expected this sort of thing given all the tales I read here, but it was still frustrating to experience, and quite anticlimactic.  I actually almost went Nexus first due to familiarity, but the straightforwardness of reg VH lulled me late at night.

I know that I'm not a bad tank - just need a bit more experience with the boss fights.  But at the same time, I never took this much abuse in general as a healer before, and I thought that was the most thankless job in any MMOG.  Tanking surprised me with the complexity when I respecced as prot back in TBC - it's generally not as "misclick and wipe" as healing can be, but there's still a large amount of different things to keep your eye on.  Enjoying playing a Mastermind in CoV is probably why I've stuck with the prot warrior so much - there's a kind of zen in the flurry of activity.

A guild of other mature, intelligent players still seems like the best/least painful way to experience heroics/raids to me at this point.  I find that the older I get, the lower my tolerance is for douchebaggery. (waves his cane menacingly, mentions something about his lawn)

[Kail]

A guild of other mature, intelligent players still seems like the best/least painful way to experience heroics/raids to me at this point.  I find that the older I get, the lower my tolerance is for douchebaggery. (waves his cane menacingly, mentions something about his lawn)

You might also try DPSing.  I tried doing three heroics as a tank; finished one and dropped two because of people bitching about my gear before we began.  Figured I'd give up and try again once I'd farmed enough badges in regular for some Conquest gear.  Respecced to an AoE DPS spec and noticed that I was pulling in about 2.5k, figured I'd give heroics a shot as a DPS, and am now doing fairly well in them, rolling on DPS gear and spending badges on tanking gear for later.  Plus, you get to become experienced in heroics without being in a "screw up and we all die horribly" position.

[Paelos]

Tanking requires a certain mentality. You have to understand that when you are in a PuG 70% of the time your DPS are going to try to actively fuck you, and then complain that you aren't taking it in the right way. Most of the time, the correct response is that they are reading the wrong meter, and just leave them to stew for another 20m in the queue while you get a new group in less than 5s.

Realize that you are the hot commodity, and anything they do to piss you off is a waste of their time. That doesn't give you carte blanche to be a raging control-freak dick, or to act like you don't have to learn to play your class. However, you can requeue 3 times in less than 20m to find dps who function. They can't do the same.

[Megrim]

One of the DPS is already halfway to the portal.  I beat feet, heroic throw at the nearest mob, wait for the crowd to approach, and before I can get shockwave off, the DPS has already pulled one of the mobs onto him.  Taunt it back to me, swing around, cleave the masses, shockwave, enrage, shield slam on the taunted mob.  Omen shows me just slightly ahead.

I am by no means even an ok tank, since my entire experience revolves rolling a dk and tanking Ramps at 60 - but see that part, right there? Yea, let that dps die and then to resume tanking normally. After a few times they will usually either catch on, or ragequit.

* Edit, ten levels lower, lol.

[Cadaverine]

RDF threw my tree druid into Violet Hold.  I buff everyone, and wait for them to start the instance.  80 Paladin, and a 76 or so Warrior, and two mid-70 Hunters.  Instead of starting the instance, they just sit there killing the mobs that charge the NPCs at the entrance.  After a couple minutes of watching this, I asked in /p if they knew the instance hadn't been started yet, which they assured me they totally knew.

Finally, everyone is ready.  However, rather than talk to the NPC, and begin the instance, they all run out to the portal, kill the lone dragonkin that came out, and then sit there waiting.  After 20 seconds or so, the 80 Paladin asks when the instance is going to start.

I left.

Group after than featured an 80 dual wielding DK 'tank', who would occasionally remember to drop DnD.  Also a paladin, and a warrior.  Three damn tank classes, and I still got aggro every fight.  Still managed to pull it out, but what a pain in the ass.

[apocrypha]

Minvaren: I've had very similar experiences healing in random heroics. I ended up DPSing for a couple of weeks in randoms until I had better healing gear and knew the instances better too. One thing I can recommend is to try getting groups early in the morning, basically any time that kids are at school. I get a much higher proportion of relaxed players in random groups at 5am than I do at 5pm (thanks insomnia!).

Cadaverine: Doing random normal dungeons will get you a lot of people who are new to the instance. I've had some awesome groups where people admitted early on that they weren't familiar with the place and we took our time and explained it as we went along. I've even had a couple of superb Oculus runs like that that went so much more smoothly than the heroic ones with people who knew the place backwards!

[Hutch]

80 dual wielding DK 'tank',

These infested my random dungeons this past weekend.

They were redeemed by the guy in my guild who dual-wields as a DK tank, but somehow manages not to suck in 5-mans.
He ran me and another guildmate through a couple randoms last night. Queueing with a tank already in the group is fun :)

[Nevermore]

DW Tanking is perfectly fine..  if they spec the DW talents, meaning they need to be Frost Tanks.  The number of DW Blood Tanks I've seen lately has been mind boggling, though.  Just because you can equip a weapon in each hand doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do so.  I hope I get grouped with one of these innovators once my Shaman is 80.  I'll start whacking things with a staff in my Enhance spec and wait for them to say something.   

[Draegan]

I tanked regular AN yesterday and I found myself with a Moonkin druid DPS.  I know how to tank and I'm pretty good at it.

I'm not familiar though with how current Moonkins do as DPS, because this fucking Moonkin, no matter how much I tried kept pulling aggro from me.  He was equal to my TPS and about double the next DPS.  He could pull aggro from me after thunderclap, shockwave and one devastate. 

Do Moonkin have shitty aggro control and/or was he specced wrong?  I've never had a DPS pull aggro from me unless they were retarded and attacked before I did.