Bad Groups

[March]

If you have 30k health and can't keep aggro it's not your gear.  You cannot get that much health without having at least 1k strength.  They're just bad, likely completely situationally oblivious, possibly also reaction time that can be described as "stunned."

100% certain this is the result of DPS Tanks throwing on their second set for fast queues; no surprise there.

My previous observation is that the PvP mechanic of using _owned_ equipment vs. Equipped stuff is screwing the PvE side.

Heck, I'm afraid to queue as a Tank anymore since my healing stuff is way better and the prospect of being thrown into Pit of Saron as the Tank about makes me wet myself.  Hopefully the next iteration of the DF will take some of this into account.

However, what it positively does show is that having tank gear does not a tank make.

(oh, and DK's are far and away the worst... I hear that they are awesome at edge content... but without massive avoidance and with marginal gear and marginal skill... it's like healing a rogue; even a baby pally will not die in two hits in an Heroic - many a DK tank has... I had a DK tank die with Glyphed Regrowth, Rejuv and full stack of Lifebloom - something I previously thought physically impossible in a heroic - perhaps one of the two swords he was wielding accidentally cut his own carotid artery).

[Gobbeldygook]

DK tanks are by far the sketchiest tanks in the game.  You can implicitly trust a paladin, warrior, or druid to have a clue what they're doing, but remember that DK tanks come from the same cliched population that wears spellpower trinkets to DPS and complained about /castrandom breaking their one-button DPS macros.  A dual-wielding DK is as sketchy as a van that has FREE CANDY written on the side.

[Merusk]

Pretty much.  I'm hoping the class takes a die-off in Cata once some of the newness factor has gone and they have to level up again.

[Sjofn]

DK tanks are by far the sketchiest tanks in the game.  You can implicitly trust a paladin, warrior, or druid to have a clue what they're doing, but remember that DK tanks come from the same cliched population that wears spellpower trinkets to DPS and complained about /castrandom breaking their one-button DPS macros.  A dual-wielding DK is as sketchy as a van that has FREE CANDY written on the side.

And yet, it was a PALADIN TANK that was utterly inept in Rasix's story.

<leads the DK tank revolt>

[Shrike]

 ...perhaps one of the two swords he was wielding accidentally cut his own carotid artery).

Right there is your problem: SAOAFR. DW DK tank = fail. I'd argue even dps DW DK is fail, but it does have some--slight--utility in PvP. It's not so much the DW mechanic with a DK (though you have NO advantage over a conventional 2h DK), but the type of wanker attracted to this build for PvE.

[dd0029]

I have to say I love this new LFD tool.  I am in the process of gearing up a third character.  Yay for vacation time.

Anyway, last night I ran HVH with decked out in full spell power plate.  Checking the recount just for giggles made it even better as he was not even apparently using his "spells".  It was all blood strike and melee for his whopping 700 DPS.

[Arrrgh]

 ...perhaps one of the two swords he was wielding accidentally cut his own carotid artery).

Right there is your problem: SAOAFR. DW DK tank = fail. I'd argue even dps DW DK is fail, but it does have some--slight--utility in PvP. It's not so much the DW mechanic with a DK (though you have NO advantage over a conventional 2h DK), but the type of wanker attracted to this build for PvE.

I keep seeing this sort of thing, but I've grouped with several DK dual wield tanks who did fine. Some tanks are just idiots. It has nothing to do with the weapons they use.

[Shrike]

Not per se, but it seems to attract a certain personality that could be labled clueless douchebag.

I've seen a few--a very few--DW DKs that seemed to know what they were doing. My main objection is the fact there's no good reason to do what they're doing. They'd do just as well with an equivalent i-level 2hander. There's a particular frost DW DK build that is rather nasty for PvP, but it's a niche build for a certain playstyle. In PvE, it's just fail. The only thing you're accomplishing that your 2h brethern aren't is pissing off rogues and enhance shaman when you bogart their weapons. You don't gain a thing by rocking a pair of 1handers in PvE.

[Soulflame]

My suggestion in that case - check next time to see if he forgot Righteous Fury.  If he swapped specs, it's likely he forgot to recast it.

[Kail]

I've seen a few--a very few--DW DKs that seemed to know what they were doing. My main objection is the fact there's no good reason to do what they're doing. They'd do just as well with an equivalent i-level 2hander.

I'm thinking that, for noob DKs at least, tanking one-handers are way, way more common than two-handers with defense stats on them.  Maybe it's different at higher tiers, but my DK is still tanking with Ye Olde Titansteel Destroyer because there is nothing that drops that's got tanking stats on it that I've run into.

[Shrike]

Problem is most tanking 1handers are fast. DW DKs work best with slow weapons. They go fast, they lose damage, sothey lose potential threat which is way bad. DKs have issues with snap aggro anyways; this just makes it far far worse. Throw in clueless douchebag quotient and you have a disaster.

It's just not a good idea, yet, it's FotM and they're a dime dozen and moreover they make my teeth itch.

[Merusk]

There's no such thing as a tanking 2h, really.  At least not how you get "Tank-only" 1h weapons.  I believe Blizz said, way back when the Titansteel Protector (or whatever the crafted 2h that was on test) got dropped that they didn't want to make any weapons that were explicit to one spec of one class in the game.  

Instead, that's what you've got your rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle for.   Take the 2hder with the most stam, slap that on it. Bam, tanking weapon.

I think This: Ramaladni's Blade of Culling is the closest you're going to get to a "Pure" tanking 2hder in the current tier of content.

[Sjofn]

All the bitching about DW DKs makes me want to DW tank again. No, there's no good reason to do it, but there's really not a good reason NOT to do it, especially since they added a 1h version of the gargoyle rune. Oh no, rogues and enhance shamans might get mad at me for "stealing" their weapons. Ohhhhh noooooooo.

In other news, I finally got brave at tanked for two different random groups. I won damage in both. 

[apocrypha]

I honestly am not seeing any clear "class divide" (haha) in tanking ability. I've had excellent DK tanks and I've had shitty shit shit warrior/pala/druid tanks. It's totally the player and not the class.

We've just got to the point in my guild where we can start 5-manning some of the Northrend instances. We've got 2 decently geared 80's (tank and healer, yay!), 1 badly geared 80 (hunter), one complete new player with a DK who's just hit 79 and another shaman who's just hit 72. And running places like AN, UK, OK, HoS etc on normal is so much more fun than doing them in random PUGs on heroic it's astonishing.

I love the LFD tool, I love that I can gear up superfast now, but guild groups on Skype will always be >>>>>>>>>> random PUGs 

[K9]

All the bitching about DW DKs makes me want to DW tank again. No, there's no good reason to do it, but there's really not a good reason NOT to do it, especially since they added a 1h version of the gargoyle rune. Oh no, rogues and enhance shamans might get mad at me for "stealing" their weapons. Ohhhhh noooooooo.

In other news, I finally got brave at tanked for two different random groups. I won damage in both. 

Please take all the 1h DPS swords, we really have no use for them at all.

[Paelos]

Everytime I see a 1h dps weapon, i groan a little on the inside. Mostly because they never get taken.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, generally speaking, if a 1h weapon drops, we don't actually need it, because our main 1h weapon dpsers farm like crazy to GET those without us because zomgnewweaponyay, so they just get DE'd anyway.

But they might get maaaaaad if I dual wield nooooooooooo.

[Evildrider]

Everytime I see a 1h dps weapon, i groan a little on the inside. Mostly because they never get taken.

They are all for my Rogue!  Mine damn you!

[apocrypha]

They are all for my Rogue!  Mine damn you!

I've been healing too much. I now read the word "Rogue" as "Yellow-named fool who's going to either suck up all my mana or spend half the instance dead and bitching about it, or both".

[March]

They are all for my Rogue!  Mine damn you!

I've been healing too much. I now read the word "Rogue" as "Yellow-named fool who's going to either suck up all my mana or spend half the instance dead and bitching about it, or both".

Heh, made me chuckle a bit... I've been healing dozens of randoms on both my Druid and Paladin and can totally see this.  In fact, I have a new category of "bad group" - I call it the DPS Orgy.

Pretty simple, really... Junior just got his new i245 shoulders and is going to use _this_ run as a DPS meter test - multiply that by 3 DPS and voila, Boss ping-pong and Trash on your healer. Trash...on...the...healer - it had been so long since trash had gotten close enough to attack me that, at first, I was confused and contemplated opening a bug ticket: "Dear Blizzard, I'm a healer and today in Utgarde Keep a lowly barbarian warrior walked right up to me and hit me - is this working as intended?"  Apparently the DPS wizards had wonked all the aggro and my fantastic healing was actually pulling healing aggro.  Now, I have my suspicions about the tank... but still he was a secondary problem if at all.

Honestly, though, what really set me off is that I'm the guy who has to make things right.  If I heal my ass off keeping these guys alive we shave about 45 seconds off the total run.  Since I'm in this to farm badges and no-one cares about the awesome 3k HPS output... fuck it - why should my walk in the park be ruined by your epeen... put that thing away and stop waving it in my face or someone's gonna get hurt (and since I control the hurt mitigation buttons, we all know who that will be).

I have a soft-spot for the bad tanks who are learning the ropes, but find I have a heart of ice for DPS who expect me to perform fabulous feats of finger finery to keep them alive in Utgarde Keep.

I politely mentioned this in chat (even used a :) ) and since it was a group with Pally/DK/DK from same guild plus me and a competent Hunter I figured the DK's would ease up on their poor tank friend; It appears I overestimated their capacity for empathy.

So.  I invented a new mini-game.  Here are the rules in the event that you are a healer and want to play along.
1. Everyone gets a free Rejuvenation (hippocratic oath and all that...).
2. Tank is always fully HoT'ed
3. DPS gets heals for incidental contact (I mean, I'm not a monster.)
4. If I see you have aggro from my magic aggro teller bar... see #1 above.

Suddenly my walk in the park was restored; see, the thing is with all the extra DPS in the game now, it turns out that losing one or two even on a boss isn't such a big deal.

A couple times I was even rooting for the guy to pull through as it was a race between rejuv and that pesky trash mob.  Usually the subject lived, but a couple times he died.

A simple, "huh, died to Trash... who'd 'av thought?" was all I allowed myself.

Fairly quickly Death-n-Decay found it's proper time and use, trash mobs followed their ordained paths and Bosses correctly directed their ire at the appointed receptacle.

I'll admit that it was a fairly petty form of passive-aggressive up-fuckery... but while all you folks think that DPS is the name of the game, or that Tanks are the true leaders... sometimes I feel the need to remind you all that Healers rule the world.

It is why we play.

[Soulflame]

Rogues - good floor CC, or best floor CC?

[Merusk]

I should have read your post before running my first ever Forge of Souls, March.

Then again, letting the DPS die would have just meant more deaths to me.  I think the highest output was 2100 on Broj.  I died there, AND the fight took about 3x longer than my last fight according to DBM.   I died so much doing this group (Helm and boots went red)  that I wondered if, perhaps, I simply am way too undergeared for the instance.  However, the lfg tool is what put me there, and damnit there I was going to stay if only to unlock the next dungeon.

Holy hell, though, I wish the DPS or DK tank had learned to interrupt those caster dudes.  When spamming prayer of healing and drinking between every pull is your only recourse, that place just sucks.

[proudft]

It turns out my Renew ticks for enough to keep two casters alive during Keristraza even if they never, ever move to remove the cold debuff. 

After we won, I, of course, felt no obligation to keep refreshing the the renews and got to watch them drop dead, having still not moved for a good 15 seconds after the boss hits the floor.  Apparently the shadow priest was too busy typing NED MACE OK? to, you know, move a pixel.  The mage had no such excuse.

[Soulflame]

I cackle at the sheer number of spriests that are suddenly leveling.  It's like a plague!

[March]

I should have read your post before running my first ever Forge of Souls, March.

Then again, letting the DPS die would have just meant more deaths to me.  I think the highest output was 2100 on Broj.  I died there, AND the fight took about 3x longer than my last fight according to DBM.   I died so much doing this group (Helm and boots went red)  that I wondered if, perhaps, I simply am way too undergeared for the instance.  However, the lfg tool is what put me there, and damnit there I was going to stay if only to unlock the next dungeon.

Holy hell, though, I wish the DPS or DK tank had learned to interrupt those caster dudes.  When spamming prayer of healing and drinking between every pull is your only recourse, that place just sucks.

Yeah, Forge of Souls and Pit of Saron are the Lent to my Utgarde Keep Easter...

[Sheepherder]

I'll admit that it was a fairly petty form of passive-aggressive up-fuckery... but while all you folks think that DPS is the name of the game, or that Tanks are the true leaders... sometimes I feel the need to remind you all that Healers rule the world.

I used to conspire with my healers to kill annoying DPS on my warrior when tabsunder was the way to tank if you were not prot.

[kildorn]

If your healer is getting threat, it's either new adds the tank didn't see coming/didn't have a cooldown up for, or DPS was peeling so often that all the tank's threat gens were being wasted keeping the burn targets off the squishies that a random 3rd burn lost threat.

I did get yelled at on my lock in a random pug by the tank, but it wasn't my fault! I gave him three good whacks, then promptly crit my opening spree for 140% threat. And soul shatter was on cooldown :( Was more a tank gear issue though, I vastly outgeared him and didn't realize it until the first AE pulls. Then it became seed.. count to 3, seed, count to 3...

[March]

If your healer is getting threat, it's either new adds the tank didn't see coming/didn't have a cooldown up for, or DPS was peeling so often that all the tank's threat gens were being wasted keeping the burn targets off the squishies that a random 3rd burn lost threat.

I thought I said that?   

I did get yelled at on my lock in a random pug by the tank, but it wasn't my fault! I gave him three good whacks, then promptly crit my opening spree for 140% threat. And soul shatter was on cooldown :( Was more a tank gear issue though, I vastly outgeared him and didn't realize it until the first AE pulls. Then it became seed.. count to 3, seed, count to 3...

Exactly... as DPS you need to react to the situation at hand.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I'm just seeing that the Random Dungeon is making a lot of strange bedfellows, and I for one am tired of being fucked by strangers.

[Rasix]

I've seen a lot of new druid healers lately. They're clearly lacking a healer UI or knowledge of targetting keybinds (they heal the tank, and ONLY THE TANK) and they roll on everything.  I've had to restrict tapping to when I already have a HOT on me. 

Ohh well, hopefully it'll lead to more experienced druid healers, but I have a feeling they'll be going back to their DPS spec once they hit some sort of gear threshold.

[March]

I've seen a lot of new druid healers lately. They're clearly lacking a healer UI or knowledge of targetting keybinds (they heal the tank, and ONLY THE TANK) and they roll on everything.  I've had to restrict tapping to when I already have a HOT on me. 

Ohh well, hopefully it'll lead to more experienced druid healers, but I have a feeling they'll be going back to their DPS spec once they hit some sort of gear threshold.

Have we met before?

[Rasix]

You'd give me a rejuv. I'd hug you for that.

[Ingmar]

I've seen a lot of new druid healers lately. They're clearly lacking a healer UI or knowledge of targetting keybinds (they heal the tank, and ONLY THE TANK) and they roll on everything.  I've had to restrict tapping to when I already have a HOT on me. 

Ohh well, hopefully it'll lead to more experienced druid healers, but I have a feeling they'll be going back to their DPS spec once they hit some sort of gear threshold.

It seems like most times lately that there's a warlock in the group and I'm on my moonkin I have to be the one to heal it, no matter what class is healing.

[kildorn]

I haven't had to tap in the middle of a 5 man in ages, unless they're playing with the glyph and using it in a rotation. Mana wise, never an issue.

Raids are a whole different ball of wax, though.

[Soulflame]

I'm leveling a druid, but I do run a UI (grid), plus keybinds (and clique), and I heal everyone.  Even the people I hate.

You know who I really hate?  The warlock that LTs to 10% of his health right before a pull.  Seriously.  Fuck that guy.  Making me rejuv+SM.  I might need that for the tank!

[Rasix]

Hah, I don't trust people.  LTing into the danger zone is not good practice.

I generally don't have to LT a lot in 5 mans. During a gauntlet, yah I do.  Every 40 seconds, yep, I need to get into a habit of having that buff up.  Long boss fights, slow DPS, my own habit of keeping my mana near 100%... 

If I went back to affliction, which may seem prudent at 4 piece tier 9, I wouldn't have this issue at all. But as destro, I just can't bum rush entire instance without having to drink like some.

Give me a HOT between pulls and go back to ignoring me. I'm pretty much always out of the fire.