Bad Groups

[Dren]

Yes, to what was said on Patchwerk.  Plus, our higher rated DPS people will step into the poison long enough to knock their hps down to where there is no way they are a target.

I learned this the hard way in that, out of habit, I kept healing them.  I got an ear full in Vent to STOP HEALING DPS.  It was so foreign to me that I did stop out of faith they knew what they were doing.

They did.

We healed well enough that nobody past the 3 tanks got hit, but it was amusing.

[Chimpy]

Having melee jump into the slime was always funny to me. It really is only necessary if your healers are having a rough time of it or as a way to keep your average 15 year old melee-epeener from getting on the threat list before the hateful tanks do. There is a reason why our tanks would always say "hit" when they got hit for the first time, when all your tanks say that, your melee can go nuts.

[Paelos]

Patch just has one of those mechanics that creates inconsistency. You can work around it, but bringing in new folks makes things very wrong very fast.

[K9]

Personally I don't like the melee taking slime hits as they then pick up ProM and CH jumps that should otherwise be landing on tanks.

[Shrike]

I"ve been in quasi-PuG Naxx runs (both 10 and 25) where the melee does the slime dip. Two things are annoying about it...

One is there's always a healer that doesn't get the memo and insists on healing you right before the pull, so it becomes an excercise in futility. Two, I"m a shaman. So my mana takes a hit, too, which isn't particularly good a few seconds before a pull. Sure I can get it right back with SR, but it puts me on a two minute stretch right away with no emergency mana recovery. And, no, I've never been able to rely on paladins for any sort of replenishment. Ret pallies are like hen's teeth, apparently. I think I could count on one hand with fingers left over the number I've seen in raids I've been in. Our guild has one that switches between ret and holy (usually healer spec), but far as I can tell he never specs into JotW--or at least not past one point.

[K9]

What sort of freak server are you on where ret paladins are rare? After you discount all the DKs we can't move for bloody rets on my server.

[Soulflame]

There is a wide gap between ret paladins, and good ret paladins.  Also, I've glumly respecced back into holy, because of the lack of healers (imagine an infinite chain of swear words, with each word cussing forever.)  I imagine a good sized number of ret paladins have been forced to do the same.  Plus, the initial rush of ret paladins was due to them being ludicrously overpowered initially, now Blizzard has "rebalanced" them to be one of the weakest DPS classes, so quite a number of people have dropped their paladin because of that.

[Ingmar]

What sort of freak server are you on where ret paladins are rare? After you discount all the DKs we can't move for bloody rets on my server.

This. A couple weeks ago I was in a PUG raid on my elemental shaman that had 6 DKs and 6 ret paladins. 

[Shrike]

It's Whisperwind. One of the highest population servers in WoW. Weird? Maybe, but it's the only one I play on, so that's what I go by.

That's what makes it so frustrating. Literally, you hardly seen ret pallies in raids. Like I said, our guild has one and he's usually holy for raiding. I know of one other that will only roll as ret, but I only see her occasionally in a certain raiding quasi-guild. I've seen three in PuGs since WotLK release. It might be the chronic healer shortage, but ret seems to be rare outside of PvP.

Generally, I don't pay much attention to paladins. What I do notice is raids where I'm continually out of mana. I'm used to it on 5 mans, but I really notice in 10s. 25s aren't so bad, but again, if there's no JotW, I notice (usually after the second or third magma totem). Maybe they don't take the talent. I don't know. I just know I see JotW rarely enough for it to be remarkable.

[Sjofn]

What sort of freak server are you on where ret paladins are rare? After you discount all the DKs we can't move for bloody rets on my server.

This. A couple weeks ago I was in a PUG raid on my elemental shaman that had 6 DKs and 6 ret paladins. 

Welcome to why I don't PUG on my DK. Even if they pick me up, I'm probably wrestling 10 other people for lewts, because no PUG ever, ever wants a tank, and so I wind up DPS, and they only let me roll on DPS shit. :(

[Merusk]

Alleria always wants tanks or healers.. never DPS.  We have a shortage of both.

[kildorn]

What sort of freak server are you on where ret paladins are rare? After you discount all the DKs we can't move for bloody rets on my server.

This. A couple weeks ago I was in a PUG raid on my elemental shaman that had 6 DKs and 6 ret paladins. 

Welcome to why I don't PUG on my DK. Even if they pick me up, I'm probably wrestling 10 other people for lewts, because no PUG ever, ever wants a tank, and so I wind up DPS, and they only let me roll on DPS shit. :(

Except that semi pug 25 man naxx I went on. With the one DK and one fury warrior. Where nothing but plate dps gear and 2h weapons dropped. <3

[Sheepherder]

Yup, Patch hateful strikes the person with the highest current HP who is 2nd or 3rd on his threat list. If you use a geared Druid or DK as a soak tank they can take one or two hatefuls before their HP even gets below that of the next melee. It does require some very tight healing though holy light spam.

 

[Khaldun]

Here's a good one. Guild mate who couldn't make our Naxx-25 raid we do with one other guild we like decided to pug. He's a DK dps main spec. Weirdly enough, there was only one other DK in the raid (freaky!) who was rolling on tank pieces, in part because he was fully kitted out in the best Naxx DPS stuff he could get. So by whatever freak of randomness, DPS plate was raining from the skies in the first two wings they ran (I dunno which, I wouldn't know anyway, I don't have an 80 plate-wearer). There really wasn't anyone who could use it--the raid was very druid heavy, the only pallies were dedicated holy pallies and they had no interest in what was falling. After my guildie got his third upgrade piece, the raid leader announced that the next thing of that kind that dropped was going to be /roll for vendor, "because it's unfair when anyone gets too many things that are good for them".

[Selby]

After my guildie got his third upgrade piece, the raid leader announced that the next thing of that kind that dropped was going to be /roll for vendor, "because it's unfair when anyone gets too many things that are good for them".

I really hate this attitude.  So the prng didn't decide to make everything a fight among 10 people.  Why should we make someone else forcefully NOT get something they can use as an upgrade just because others are pissed that their drops aren't occurring?  I went on many a Molten Core and AQ20 run where this happened: "Well, you aren't part of our normal group or we don't want you to get any upgrades so we're DE'ing everything that you can use even if no one else wants it."  Another reason why I hate raiding.

[Sjofn]

Here's a good one. Guild mate who couldn't make our Naxx-25 raid we do with one other guild we like decided to pug. He's a DK dps main spec. Weirdly enough, there was only one other DK in the raid (freaky!) who was rolling on tank pieces, in part because he was fully kitted out in the best Naxx DPS stuff he could get. So by whatever freak of randomness, DPS plate was raining from the skies in the first two wings they ran (I dunno which, I wouldn't know anyway, I don't have an 80 plate-wearer). There really wasn't anyone who could use it--the raid was very druid heavy, the only pallies were dedicated holy pallies and they had no interest in what was falling. After my guildie got his third upgrade piece, the raid leader announced that the next thing of that kind that dropped was going to be /roll for vendor, "because it's unfair when anyone gets too many things that are good for them".

Man, that is such crap. I would've been happy we had someone along to actually use that shit.

[Rasix]

I've never understood that mentality.  I'd rather someone get offspec loot for their alt than to see something sharded or vendored.  Hell, last 10 man Naxx I did the majority of the loot was spell plate and shammy gear.  One guy got a lot of pieces for his holy paladin alt, but the shammy stuff was all shards at the end.

Decided to cut ties with my current guild and move to an offshoot guild that's really only big enough to do 10s at the moment. Of course the day I move over, the guild leader (DK tank) decides to piss off an entire 25man OS pug that was filled with server board trolls.  That might hurt recruitment just a bit.   

[Chimpy]

We used to pug in a couple of guys to fill our Naxx 10 runs which we ran on afternoons. It seemed like the pugger (who was always a friend of someone we knew but not anyone we really knew) would end up seeing a ton of stuff drop he could use, last time it was tanking and healing plate when our one pugger was a retty alt. Invariably the guys would feel bad about taking gear and we would have to say "look, even if it is not a main spec piece of gear, if you can see a use of having it, take it. We all have enough gold to buy shards if we are that hard up for them."

No piece of BoP loot should ever be vendored or sharded when someone in the group has a forseeable use for it. Even if they end up vendoring or sharding it themselves later, it is pretty fucking childish to penalize them for the luck of the draw.

[gryeyes]

As long as its not a clear case of abusing the system (refusing to participate in learning the content then showing up when its on farm) if someone has a reasonable use for it they should get.

[Koyasha]

Hell, even in those cases, if I bring the dude along, and nobody else needs the loot, I'm gonna give it to him rather than destroying the stuff. Of course, I would be disinclined to bring the person along if they behave that way.

I've never had someone pull that on me - or in my presence.  Sometimes people try to deny someone loot, but never that I've experienced destroy it just to spite them, but I've certainly heard of it happening.  If it did, even if I wasn't the person being denied I'd probably drop the group and if it was a guild run, be looking for another guild.

I know if I was in the aforementioned example I'd just shrug my shoulders and say "'kay. Tell the person you get to replace me that if they get "too much" loot that nobody else actually needs, you'll stop giving it to them." then leave.  Though depending on if I was feeling vindictive enough (particularly depending on the attitudes of other people in the raid) I might just hang around in the instance so they can't replace me.

[Merusk]

I've been in situations where I favored destruction of loot over awarding it to people.  It involved a retarded DKP system tht didn't charge you any points for 'offspec' gear.

So you wound-up with healers accumulating an 'offspec' dps gear set, holding out on healing upgrades until they were forced on them so they could horde DKP points.  Then at the next content tier they'd declare "oh I'm  dps now" and used their horded DKP to snipe all the loot they could before quitting.  This happened throug two content cycles before anyone would listen to my bitching about it. 

[skolor]

I know we've joked about it before, especially when we had 6 pieces of healing plate drop, and only had one paladin in the raid (Myself, the MT). I walked away from one evening of Naxx with almost an entire set of Epic healing gear, despite the fact that I had never speced holy before (well, not on that character).

If that came up, and I was the only person who could use it, I would definitely say along the lines of: "Lets see, its ~25g to vendor it, so here's the 25g you'd be getting, I want that loot".

[Hindenburg]

If that came up, and I was the only person who could use it, I would definitely say along the lines of: "Lets see, its ~25g to vendor it, so here's the 25g you'd be getting, I want that loot".

That's a very nice argument killer.

[Selby]

If that came up, and I was the only person who could use it, I would definitely say along the lines of: "Lets see, its ~25g to vendor it, so here's the 25g you'd be getting, I want that loot".

That's a very nice argument killer.

Exactly.  Buy the damn set out if people are going to whine about it.

[Phred]

If that came up, and I was the only person who could use it, I would definitely say along the lines of: "Lets see, its ~25g to vendor it, so here's the 25g you'd be getting, I want that loot".

That's a very nice argument killer.

Exactly.  Buy the damn set out if people are going to whine about it.

Personally, as long as the person offers to trade  shards  for the loot I'd be fine with it. Most naxx purples are worth about 4x vendor value in shards. At least on my server, abyss crystals sell for over 100g still. I don't really care about someone getting a ton of loot but if I get a new piece that needs 4 abyss crystals and the guild bank is empty it comes out of my pocket.

[Shrike]

If that came up, and I was the only person who could use it, I would definitely say along the lines of: "Lets see, its ~25g to vendor it, so here's the 25g you'd be getting, I want that loot".

That's a very nice argument killer.

Exactly.  Buy the damn set out if people are going to whine about it.

Personally, as long as the person offers to trade  shards  for the loot I'd be fine with it. Most naxx purples are worth about 4x vendor value in shards. At least on my server, abyss crystals sell for over 100g still. I don't really care about someone getting a ton of loot but if I get a new piece that needs 4 abyss crystals and the guild bank is empty it comes out of my pocket.

Said pocket only take a few dailys to fill up. Shards are going for about 60-80g on Whisperwind (assuming a decent supply; asshats keep trying to force it up over 100). Run a few dailys.

I keep 14 shards in the bank and it took only a week of dailys to get it there. Enough on hand for a Berzkering (damn you, KT...) and a powerful stats. Admittedly, berzerking is dear, but I still don't have any real issue keeping the mats on hand from my daily routine. That as opposed to being a douche to someone when usuable loot drops in Naxx (or wherever). Enough stuff gets sharded because NO one wants it, you don't need to maginalize alt-sets or new folks because of a few shards. It's better that loot gets used, even if it's only a little bit, rather than sharded.

[Dren]

Here's a good one. Guild mate who couldn't make our Naxx-25 raid we do with one other guild we like decided to pug. He's a DK dps main spec. Weirdly enough, there was only one other DK in the raid (freaky!) who was rolling on tank pieces, in part because he was fully kitted out in the best Naxx DPS stuff he could get. So by whatever freak of randomness, DPS plate was raining from the skies in the first two wings they ran (I dunno which, I wouldn't know anyway, I don't have an 80 plate-wearer). There really wasn't anyone who could use it--the raid was very druid heavy, the only pallies were dedicated holy pallies and they had no interest in what was falling. After my guildie got his third upgrade piece, the raid leader announced that the next thing of that kind that dropped was going to be /roll for vendor, "because it's unfair when anyone gets too many things that are good for them".

Man, that is such crap. I would've been happy we had someone along to actually use that shit.

That is pure unfiltered jealousy.  It is a childish mentality.  Everyone in a raid doesn't always have to have the same level of disappointment.  There will be winners and there will be losers.  That's true about most anything.  Forcing some kind of success curve on everyone in a raid is sadistic.

And please, the minimal gold you get for vendoring purples isn't anywhere close to being worth being such a prick.  The fact that other people didn't speak up and say that was wrong says a lot about a group.

[Paelos]

Of course they didn't speak up. They were probably just as frustrated. It had nothing to do with the guy, and everything to do with the fact that PuGs act like hungry hyenas about loot. There isn't any reason to have loyalty to somebody in the group if they aren't running consistently with you. They are just another obstacle in the way of your purples.

Yes, it's childish and retarded. This is WoW, and in PuG's you're working with people who can't/don't want to deal with a regular group. That means you're asking for idiots.

[Ironwood]

Hmmm, I dunno.

If I was in a PUG where that shit happened, I'd be vocal, clear and then leave.

Actually, maybe that's why I don't PUG.

[Paelos]

Actually, maybe that's why I don't PUG.

Most of us don't b/c we wouldn't want that kind of retarded situation to even emerge. In my book, you either join/create your own semi-consistent group, or you wander aimlessly in the wilderness for achievements. I like a little of both, but I'll never PuG anything.

[Ingmar]

Honestly you're missing an opportunity. I have had a startling number of good experiences in WotLK raid PUGs. Yeah there have been terrible ones too, but it isn't like it used to be IMO.

[Hindenburg]

Tru dat. Being the tank and knowing the healer helps immensely, tho.

[Dren]

Actually, maybe that's why I don't PUG.

Most of us don't b/c we wouldn't want that kind of retarded situation to even emerge. In my book, you either join/create your own semi-consistent group, or you wander aimlessly in the wilderness for achievements. I like a little of both, but I'll never PuG anything.

Oh I thought it was obvious.  I don't do PuGs.  I'd have done the same thing Ironwood stated.  I would tell them the obvious and then leave.  I have enough issues with a consistent group of guildies and guild alliances that are tolerable, but PuGs amplifies that by 100.  No thanks.

We do a 1 Need, 1 Use, and 1 Set item rule.  First items are rolled on if you need it for your primary spec.  Next if nobody rolled, you roll if you can use it for an off-spec or you already used your need roll.  For each set piece token that drops, you get a fresh roll on that, but one per person per run.  Now, given all that we obviously have the same issue stated below.  People will run out of rolls and items are left with a possible DE.  At that point, we have those still interested in it, but without rolls roll on it.  We do everything possible to avoid a vendor sell or DE on an item.

[K9]

We give priority to main armour type, and main weapon type (ranged for hunters, melee for melee), then spec, then offspec.

Does anyone here play a rogue?

[Vash]

Does anyone here play a rogue?

I have in the past, but I could say that for pretty much every class in the game at this point.