Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Jeff Kelly]

I discussed the theory with a good friend of mine (a huge ME fan) and actually it makes a lot of sense.

Sovereign even mentions it to you: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

If Reapers themselves use indoctrination and Reaper technolgical artefacts use indoctrination effects, then it's only logical to assume that every piece of Reaper technology has some form of mind control/suggestive or indoctrination effect.

It makes perfect sense. When you discover interplanetary spaceflight you'll discover a mass portal at some point. Your political leadership and your top scientists and engineers will then probably spend decades or generations to analyze it and to uncover its secrets. More than enough time to subtly indoctrinate those people and to give them the idea about mass effect fields and mass effect drives. Basicallly accelerate the technological evolution of a species so that they think they have discovered intergalactic flight on their own. You could even give them the idea to check out that big node in the mass portal network (aka Citadel) first. When they reach the Citadel they reach another Reaper artifact that subtly indoctrinates them.

They get the idea that this might be a great place for commerce and exploration, that it might make a perfect capital of the galaxy and it quenches their curiosity to actually find out how this all works or who exactly built it and why the last great civilization is gone now.

That's why the Council doesn't believe you despite all of the evidence. They are programmed to not believe you.

THis brings me to the three outliers.

1. The Rachni. They have evolved from insectoid ancestry and they form a hive mind so they might be less affected by indoctrination
2. The geth. They form a hive mind and they are cybernetic lifeforms so indoctrination won't work on them
3. Humans are spacefarers for only 20 odd years and are therefore not as affected by the subtle indoctrination (it has to be subtle, the prey should only be made content not braindead) as other species who have used the mass protals and the citadel for hundreds or thousands of years.

They leave one Reaper behind for exactly such events. If evolution produces a real outlier that they'd have to deal with or if something unexpected happens during a cycle.

With that knowledge you could view the Rachni wars either way.

1. The Rachni were indoctrinated by the Reapers and waged war on the Galaxy (why should this make sense? They need as many biological lifeforms as possible)
2. They viewed the Rachni as a real threat because of their ability to breed quickly and their supposed incapability to be indoctrinated and used the indoctrinated part of the Galaxy (Salarians, Asari, Turians) as pawns to eradicate the threat. Remember that the Salarians bred the Krogans to eradicate the Rachni threat

Same with the geth. The Heretics were basically hacked by the Reapers to "believe" in them because they'd be a real threat otherwise.

I don't suppose that Bioware actually thought about that this way (if they did kudos to them) but it makes a lot of sense.

So basically the whole Galaxy is indoctrinated/manipulated to some extend to uncinsciously work towards the goals of the Reapers.

[tmp]

1. The Rachni were indoctrinated by the Reapers and waged war on the Galaxy (why should this make sense? They need as many biological lifeforms as possible)

It makes sense when you consider how every species but humans gets insulted and declared obsolete and useless for the Plan, by a Reaper. They say themselves they don't need these biological lifeforms. And they confirm it through actions -- they certainly weren't trying to abduct colonists of these species and make new Reapers out of them.

[Polysorbate80]

If the indoctrination bit is true, I'd expect they'll also be far more pissed off that you've destroyed a mass relay than they are about the batarian colony.  If the upstart races get the idea they can wipe out the relay network, then the reapers are reduced to a slow (well, still FTL technically) hide-and-seek search of all the systems in the galaxy, and that's bad for them--a single reaper can be killed, while a mass of reapers can just be avoided.

[Jeff Kelly]

Which was a recent development I suppose.  At the time of the Rachni wars humans were still in the dark ages (it was after all thousand years before the events in ME).

I suppose they were impressed by the Human race for being able to actually bring down a Reaper and wanted a fit replacement for Sovereign. I am positive however that this wasn't the plan a millenium ago.

[MournelitheCalix]

Remember that the Salarians bred the Krogans to eradicate the Rachni threat

Really awesome theory Jeff.  I like it a lot and your right it makes a lot of sense.  But the above I believe is wrong.  I think the history as I remember it was that the salarians used the Krogans by making them essentially their weapons.  They armed the Krogan, used them against the Rachni, and then finally realized they had opened pandora's box with the Krogan.  Since the Krogan now had the technology to overcome their harsh planet they were no longer dieing at a rate that kept their population in check.  Thus the decreased death rate meant that the Krogan would necessarily have to expand.  Since they were harsh and warlike and now were armed with the means to wage war on a galactic scale the salarians premptively implimented the genophage.

I could be wrong, but that is how I remember the Krogan/Salarian history from ME and ME2.

[Jeff Kelly]

Bred might be the wrong term. They basically gave a civilization, that was still in the bronze age, space age technology and weapons and force fed them knowledge that allowed them to use it effectively. Think Spartans with nukes and FTL drives or neanderthals with automatic weapons.

[Morat20]

"Up until the invention of gunpowder, the primary cause of death among Krogans was 'animal attack'. Afterwards, the primary cause was 'Death by Gunshot'"

Best Codex Entry ever. Two lines that sum up the Krogan perfectly that still makes me laugh everytime I hear it.

[jakonovski]

All this speculation is awesome, but here's my honest prediction for ME3:

Shepard goes to space jail. He gets sprung out by Liara and the Virmire Survivor, who tell him the Reapers are fucking shit up on Earth. The only way to save Earth is to assemble a team and find the McGuffin that allows him to banish the Reapers once and for all.

[Jeff Kelly]

Yeah unfortunately I agree. It would be absolutely awesome if my little theory would turn out to be correct but I'd bet more money on it being something like you said.

[jakonovski]

Yeah, my dream is that they give the player reason to believe that Shepard himself may be indoctrinated.

[Lantyssa]

The original Rachni were likely indoctrinated.  The Queen tells you through the messenger that their song had soured back then.  She wasn't affected because she was still an egg, she just had the racial memory imprinted so she knew the history.

[Shrike]

I hesitate to use the word McGuffin, but yeah, I think we'll see something along those lines. It's already been speculated in the game that the Protheans might have left more "help" behind. Also, there's the keeper#20 thing and the fact that we know the Protheans were fiddling with the keepers. Lastly, we don't really know what happened to those last Protheans, other than there were stuck on the Citadel for a long time before their fate caught up with them--stuck there with those keepers.

[Polysorbate80]

Or, rather than a McGuffin to destroy them:

Allied races are fighting, but losing.  Someone finds out that somewhere there's a means of locking the Reapers out of their own relay network--probably on the Citadel.  Commander "I Has A Stealth Ship" Shepard gets to fight his/her way in and perform this task (assuming the Reapers don't forget to lock the back door the Protheans installed.)  Now, the allied fleets are able to gang up on the now-isolated Reapers, who take the long view and destroy crucial mass relay points to segments of the galaxy to protect themselves while they engage in mustache-twirling EEEEE-vil plots.

Stalemate.  Many reapers regroup out in isolated territory, while others trapped in allied deep space endlessly harass the alliance.  Meanwhile, the alliance figures out the technology to build mass relays, but it's a slow and expensive process.

Bingo, MMO time.  A setting for constant conflict, with the ability to add in "expansions" as desired.

[Ingmar]

The original Rachni were likely indoctrinated.  The Queen tells you through the messenger that their song had soured back then.  She wasn't affected because she was still an egg, she just had the racial memory imprinted so she knew the history.

Yeah, beat me to it.

[LK]

They'll show how everyone is Indoctrinated, and that their fate is galactic destruction, then, in a Final Fantasy X Yuna / Matrix Neo moment, Shepard will say "No", break free, and change the status quo, thereby having a Mass Effect on the galaxy.

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUN.

[Morat20]

If everyone is indoctrinated -- why isn't Shepard? The Illusive Man? Hell, Anderson since he's been on the Citadel awhile?

[jakonovski]

Plotonium.

[Ingmar]

If everyone is indoctrinated -- why isn't Shepard? The Illusive Man? Hell, Anderson since he's been on the Citadel awhile?

"The Illusive Man is secretly indoctrinated" is a long running theory on the ME boards actually. We also know that some people are easier to indoctrinate than others - it took a long time to wear Saren down, after all, but not long at all for some other characters. Anderson is a former Spectre candidate, etc., so he might just be mentally 'tougher'.

That said I sort of doubt the ENTIRE population of the Citadel is indoctrinated, but there's a good chance that there's at least a bit of indoctrination going on with the people who spend a lot of time in the Citadel Tower itself. Just enough for "Ah yes. 'Reapers'," anyway. Surely it strikes people as odd that Udina goes from seeming to more or less believe you to that in the 2nd game?

[Lantyssa]

He's just mad at Anderson getting the job that he feels should be his.  (It's not like anyone ever picks Udina, and he resents it so very much.)

[Ingmar]

He's just mad at Anderson getting the job that he feels should be his.  (It's not like anyone ever picks Udina, and he resents it so very much.)

He does the same thing if you pick him.

[Ratman_tf]

So basically the whole Galaxy is indoctrinated/manipulated to some extend to uncinsciously work towards the goals of the Reapers.

But then they have little agency. Everyone is an asshole because the Reapers made them bad.

I think it's a simple explanation that people are stubborn and pretend bad things aren't happening until it's too late. Happens all the time in real life, and in fiction too. (Big part of the latest Harry Potter movies)

[Lantyssa]

He does the same thing if you pick him.

It was a fourth wall joke.

[Stormwaltz]

I think it's a simple explanation that people are stubborn and pretend bad things aren't happening until it's too late.

Ah yes, the "National Socialists."

Ah yes, "AIDS."

Ah yes, "al Queda."

Ah yes, "Global Warming."

Ah yes, "Peak Oil."

[LK]

You know I don't know how that meme became popular. Because of the silliness of the quoting Turian?

[Sjofn]

I assume it was the combination of the Turian Councilor being a dickhead again and the fact he actually air quotes at you.

[pants]

I haven't played Arrival (or any of the DLC for that matter), but would I be right in assuming that not playing Arrival might have me missing out on some useful Lore/story/whatever as a runin for ME3?  It sounds like Lair of the Shadow Broker was more of a sidequest, whereas Arrival is progressing the main storyline.  Is that right?

[ajax34i]

If I were in charge of the plot, I'd do this:

Mass Effect 1 - Shepard pisses off the Reapers by destroying one.
Mass Effect 2 - Shepard pisses off the Reapers more by destroying a baby one.
Mass Effect 3 - Reapers are pissed off and head en-masse for Earth.  Like, all of them, on the planet.  Geth figure out what's destabilizing Haestrom's sun and somehow the info gets to Shepard.  Shepard has choice:  blow up (Earth's) Sun to destroy Reapers.

[UnSub]

The Illusive Man has a throwaway line that he's found a weapon that destroyed a Reaper, iirc.

[Jeff Kelly]

The Illusive Man has a throwaway line that he's found a weapon that destroyed a Reaper, iirc.

Yeah but that it was "unsalvagable" because it was a few million years old.

[Sjofn]

I haven't played Arrival (or any of the DLC for that matter), but would I be right in assuming that not playing Arrival might have me missing out on some useful Lore/story/whatever as a runin for ME3?  It sounds like Lair of the Shadow Broker was more of a sidequest, whereas Arrival is progressing the main storyline.  Is that right?

Honestly I sort of feel like LotSB is more important, Arrival really does very little. It's definitely way better to play though.

[Lantyssa]

Arrival doesn't do much more than set you up for Space Jail.  If you want plot, then go with Lair of the Shadow Broker.  It's a side-quest, but probably way more relevant to people.

[Jeff Kelly]

I also support LotSB. If you liked system shock or the original Tron, you'd also like Overlord. The rest is not really relevant.

[Shrike]

Lair is more important. Hell, I'd argue that Overlord was next up, since it has some useful info on the Geth and sets up a rather nasty way to deal with them. I'd argue that Kasumi is more important. That one sets up hints about problems with the Alliance and has a real obvious decision point.

All the Arrival does is give you a head's up about what's coming in ME3 right off the bat. If you don't play it, you might find yourself in a WTF moment when the first thing you see is Shepard in front of a board of inquiry or a court martial. And you get to really blow some shit up, which was worth the cost of admission to me all on its own.

[Morat20]

Lair is more important. Hell, I'd argue that Overlord was next up, since it has some useful info on the Geth and sets up a rather nasty way to deal with them. I'd argue that Kasumi is more important. That one sets up hints about problems with the Alliance and has a real obvious decision point.

All the Arrival does is give you a head's up about what's coming in ME3 right off the bat. If you don't play it, you might find yourself in a WTF moment when the first thing you see is Shepard in front of a board of inquiry or a court martial. And you get to really blow some shit up, which was worth the cost of admission to me all on its own.

If you played LotSB, you'd not be surprised. The files indicate that the Alliance REALLY wanted you in front of an Inquiry Board anyways, and you were only free to run around because of a higher-up keeping the dogs off.

He'd probably stop doing that and let them bring you in right after you survived the suicide mission, since they'd want to know what the hell was going on.

[tmp]

I assume it was the combination of the Turian Councilor being a dickhead again and the fact he actually air quotes at you.

Having just three fingers, no less.