Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Shrike]

You have to chat him up quite a bit after you finish the forlorn hope. Also, haul him around the galaxy some. He has some situationally triggered dialog and it almost invariably involves the organic tyranny over the oppressed AIs of the universe. He's a bit obsessive on the subject...   

I actually like Legion quite a bit, and his concerns are certainly understandable. He does lay it on a little thick, though. 

Also, if you have the PC version or don't mind screwing a 360 save, take him to the Migrant Fleet. That's an event not to be missed. I'm sure it's territory that will be covered in ME3, but it's very interesting, to put it mildly. On the lighter side, if you want to hear near-panic in his voiceover, take him on Tali's recruitment mission. Good times.

All this stuff is most likely on youtube (I know the recruitment mission is), but it's more fun to actually play it, even though your crew will be toast if you're using the 360.

[Morat20]

Shaved bald, overly tatooed women who were abused as children in the name of 'Science' working for said scientists get a pass for being insane.

They've earned it. :)

Which just brings up the "Why can't I steal the ship and go rogue again?" concept when it comes to Cerberus.

[Velorath]

Which just brings up the "Why can't I steal the ship and go rogue again?" concept when it comes to Cerberus.

Aside from your squad, the entire crew of the ship was Cerberus.  It's not really until after you rescue the crew from the Collector's that they're loyal enough for you to really tell Cerberus to go fuck themselves.

[Sky]

my experience with tatooed half-naked bald women is pretty limited at this point).

Don't knock it!

[Fabricated]

So the Shadow Broker DLC is worth the money? I've been putting off buying it forever due to my gut reaction to despise DLC due to what it represents.

[LK]

Shadow Broker is worth the money, doubly so if you have a Liara romance.

[Ingmar]

So the Shadow Broker DLC is worth the money? I've been putting off buying it forever due to my gut reaction to despise DLC due to what it represents.

I think so. Mind you I am not bothered by DLC and buy most of it, but it is pretty much the best DLC I've ever played for any game.

[Fabricated]

Liara kinda bored the shit out of me in ME1 so I never did anything with her ever, even just to see her lines. All the same I think I'll pick it up then, cool.

[Morat20]

Aside from your squad, the entire crew of the ship was Cerberus.  It's not really until after you rescue the crew from the Collector's that they're loyal enough for you to really tell Cerberus to go fuck themselves.

I'm pretty sure that I, Spectre Shepard (depending on how you handled the Council) am perfectly capable of kicking the Ceberus crew off the ship.

Joke and the doctor would stay, I'd have to give Jacob and Mirando the boot.

The real stumbling block would be EDI.

[Surlyboi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6rtQ0-ez4g&feature=related

[LK]

If you fail to save the crew, aren't you running the ship by yourself anyway, or at least have EDI handle everything?

[Sjofn]

Liara kinda bored the shit out of me in ME1 so I never did anything with her ever, even just to see her lines. All the same I think I'll pick it up then, cool.

She bored the shit out of me too, but she's pretty cool in Shadowbroker.

And yes, Jack's voice actress is awesome. I think she's also the prettiest lady on the ship. I don't find her impossible to deal with at all, by the way, I just find her romance clumsily handled. Nothing she says or does seems to endanger anything, except her slap fight with Miranda, and honestly I think she's in the right on that one. I mean no, she's not kissing your ass constantly or anything, but she pretty clearly knows she has a job to do, and then after that's done she can do whatever the fuck she wants, so she'll go along with it for now, but she doesn't have to pretend she's cool with Cerberus. The fact that I agree with her 100% on the "Cerberus is fucked up" front probably helps, though.


Kasumi is fine in the duct, if anyone was curious. I did it with Kasumi in the tube and Garrus leading the other team and it worked out fine.

[Lantyssa]

And yes, Jack's voice actress is awesome. I think she's also the prettiest lady on the ship. I don't find her impossible to deal with at all, by the way, I just find her romance clumsily handled. Nothing she says or does seems to endanger anything, except her slap fight with Miranda, and honestly I think she's in the right on that one. I mean no, she's not kissing your ass constantly or anything, but she pretty clearly knows she has a job to do, and then after that's done she can do whatever the fuck she wants, so she'll go along with it for now, but she doesn't have to pretend she's cool with Cerberus. The fact that I agree with her 100% on the "Cerberus is fucked up" front probably helps, though.

I have to agree on all points (except romance since no Manshep).  Did the Jack cosplayer get posted here?  I think I got that from Vu, not here.

[Sjofn]

I haven't seen it!

[Merusk]

She pops up first if you do a google image search for "jack Mass effect 2 cosplay"  I'd link the site, but my god it was awful (even tho the costumes were great.)  Just go to google images.

[Lantyssa]

That's her.  Different shots than the one I have, but .

[Jeff Kelly]

Finished the game yesterday. The end is a bit weak in my opinion, not because of the mission itself but more because of the buildup of expectations leading up to it. It's rather short even compared to other story missions and having all NPCs constantly talk about the impossible 'suicide mission' is maybe not the best way to manage player expectations.

Some of the other missions have been more challenging and the choice of NPCs for the other teams is not really hard because the right choice is telegraphed to you in a clear way before you have to make it. They even have the dialogue designed in such a way that the best choices volunteer for the job or it's mentioned in the dossier.

Some of the choices have been intersting as far as why they are considered paragon or renegade choices. Reprogramming an entire species is considered paragon in the moral canon of ME, not destroying one of the most valuable resources to understand and fight the Reaper threat is Renegade however.

Not that I'd give anything as valuable as that to such a shoddy and immoral operation as Cerberus. Everything they fund and do is either utterly despicable (last mission I played before Legion and Omega 4 relay was the Overlord DLC) or a fuck up of galactic proportions, most often it's both. That they'd come up with two projects that worked as flawlessly as the reconstruction of the Normandy and project Lazarus is nigh to impossible given their track record.

After writing that paragraph I finally got - even though I really liked both ME 1 and 2 - why there was always something that bugged me about both games that I just couldn't pinpoint:

In many cases - at least for me - after being presented with both the Paragon and Renegade options my first thought was "neither of them".

With Fallout you usually get more options at least the 'good', the 'evil' and the 'my way or the highway' options seem to be always available.

Take New Vegas for example, I can work for the bad guys, I can work for the good guys, I can do what's best for the majority of people or I can do what's best for me.

In ME most paragon/renegade choices don't change the outcome they just select how I act to reach that outcome or how I deal with the consequences. The few instances where Paragon/Renegade options do move the story into different paths they're usually not the choices I would have made.

Exemplified in the last decision. No, I don't want to gift the station to Cerberus in the same way in which I won't give a loaded weapon to a three-year old with psychopathic and racist tendencies but I also don't want to destroy it because it's simply too valuable an asset in the fight against a vastly more powerful opponent.

With the renegade choice I give the ultimate doomsday device to a bunch of incapable super villains (they couldn't even handle a derelict Reaper or the wreckage of a Geth ship) with the other I destroy the best and maybe only hope for victory.

In my universe I would have kept it for myself, I would have invited all council races to study it, would've distributed any knowledge to everybody to not disturb the balance of power (very important: the whole Galaxy must fight the Reapers not each other over Reaper technology) and the people that object would first have to get past the Omega 4 Relay without the reaper IFF and then face the power of the Collector base.

[Shrike]

I think you're confusing paragon/renegade with good vs. evil, and it's not. It's more of an inclusive team building with Shepard pushing the team to be the best it can as opposed to Shepard adopting an "it's all me" mentality and just using the team to support himself. There's a bit more personal arrogance to the renegade path as well, but it really comes down to it all being about Shepard and not so much the team. With paragon it's more of Shepard forming an intensly loyal personal guard--bucellarii, if you will.

Cerberus aren't fuckups. Overlord might be a morally bankrupt opereration, but it succeeds--all too well. What bites Cerberus on the ass again and again is lack of oversight. Every operation that goes off the rails for them is because a principle in that op pushes too far. You see this on three occasions I can think of--the Illusive Man wants results and the cell leaders go way beyond the pale to accomplish this. Miranda even comments on this. However, that corporate attitude isn't just Cerberus. The STG and the spectres themselves operate the same way. They simply have more oversight (not saying much) and less hubris (though, spectres are out there; you see it in ME1 and you really see it in Shadowbroker).

[Morat20]

So, short moral of the story: If you say "Get results at any cost" the end result can be pretty fucking ugly.

Cereberus gave you a ship and a crew, and said the same damn thing to you. Which are you going to be? The ends justify the means guy? Or the guy who has boundaries he simply won't cross.

[Jeff Kelly]

Yeah I get what the paragon/renegade meter is supposed to be, but even Bioware themselves don't follow that concept every time.

Even so Paragon/renegade at least connotates good/evil. But don't get hung up on the good vs. evil or greater good/results no matter what difference, what I noticed was that many times both choices weren't the ones I would have likely made if I could have.

Interestingly enough, Project Lazarus mirrors the way Cerberus handles all projects, no oversight, a lot of pressure and the expectance of big results in a short timeframe. Basically it's the ultimate irony that by ressurecting Shepard and giving him free reign over the operation while expecting nothing short of the impossible another Cerberus Project has failed since I decided that I'd rather blow the station to pieces than hand it over to the Illusive Man.

Clearly this is a management style that works ;)

[Shrike]

Paragon/renegade can get a little murky at times. It's a bit of an artificial concept, but it does have it's fun moments. Other times, it seems to be a bit too limiting in dialog choices. There's some really good stuff in the middle ground of the dialog dial, but you'll never see/hear this stuff if you follow a hardcore renegade/paragon line in choices.

Project Lazarus actually succeeds wildly. Hell, even Miranda says so  . The goal was getting Shepard back into action--as Shepard--to eliminate the collector threat and stymie this prong of the reapers' plan. That succeeds.

The collector base is a whole other issue. No one knows what Shepard and crew are going to run into past the Omega-4 relay. When Shepard essentially captures the base, TIM suddenly sees an opportunity and grabs at it--coopt reaper tech. How you deal with that is simply a call you'll make as Shepard. We won't know the consequences of this action until ME3. In the short term, you either reinforce Cerberus' goals or you give TIM the middle finger. Simple as that!

Now, at this point TIM might be regretting slapping Miranda down about the whole control chip business, but at least you aren't reaper-chow...yet.

[Ingmar]

Now, at this point TIM might be regretting slapping Miranda down about the whole control chip business

Assuming of course that he actually did and Miranda wasn't just lying.

[LK]

Now, at this point TIM might be regretting slapping Miranda down about the whole control chip business

Assuming of course that he actually did and Miranda wasn't just lying.

It wouldn't happen because the whole point of bringing Shephard back "just as s/he was" was to preserve the player's attachment and embodiment of Shephard despite what would be considered a catastrophic and traumatic change to the character.

If they put in a control chip, then that's just an opportunity for a quest to disable it.

[Morat20]

Interestingly enough, Project Lazarus mirrors the way Cerberus handles all projects, no oversight, a lot of pressure and the expectance of big results in a short timeframe. Basically it's the ultimate irony that by ressurecting Shepard and giving him free reign over the operation while expecting nothing short of the impossible another Cerberus Project has failed since I decided that I'd rather blow the station to pieces than hand it over to the Illusive Man.

It's not irony. It's exactly the results you expect from Cerberus.

They rezzed Shepard, gave him a task with a (theoreticaly) deadline and huge pressure, and told him to solve the problem.

How you handled the Collector base was pretty much emblematic of how you handled everything else. If you had been a paragon, you'd spent the game shutting down Cerberus shit that had gotten how of hand and was killing people. If you'd been a renegade, you'd been fixing the obvious problems and telling them to keep going, but be more damn careful.

So when you have a giant honking reaper base -- you can either blow it up because it's not something you trust Cerberus to continue with it, or hand it over and tell them "Don't be as fucking stupid as you were with the derelic reapers, morons".

Which is exactly the choice you've had the whole game with Cerberus crap: Fix it and hand it over, or fix it and say "No! BAD CERBERUS! NO COOKIE!" and blow it up/hand it over the Alliance/Whatever.

[Velorath]

With Fallout you usually get more options at least the 'good', the 'evil' and the 'my way or the highway' options seem to be always available.

Take New Vegas for example, I can work for the bad guys, I can work for the good guys, I can do what's best for the majority of people or I can do what's best for me.

Different kinds of games.  Fallout doesn't have to deal with building their sequels taking into account all those choices the player made in the previous game.

[Surlyboi]

I'd expect it to still be there, these pants seem to be limited just to panels on the sides.

Fully armored booty. No more crack in the face.

[tmp]

Fully armored booty. No more crack in the face.

That's shocking. It pleases me, though.

[Surlyboi]

I like it too. The fascination with goddamn HUDs is an annoying tradeoff though.

[tmp]

These glasses do make them look like some bunch of Persona 4 spin-offs, that's true.

[Koyasha]

It wouldn't happen because the whole point of bringing Shephard back "just as s/he was" was to preserve the player's attachment and embodiment of Shephard despite what would be considered a catastrophic and traumatic change to the character.

If they put in a control chip, then that's just an opportunity for a quest to disable it.

If they put in a control chip, the ridiculous railroading would have made a lot more sense.  My main annoyance in ME2 was how absurdly railroaded it was, when there were plenty of completely reasonable options for Shepard.  From a writing perspective I can understand the railroading, but from an in-character perspective, it would have made a whole lot more sense if they had an explanation for exactly why Shepard just kinda goes along with everything the Illusive Man tells her to do without really giving much of an argument, except at the very end.

[Sjofn]

I don't actually think Shepard could've done anything but flail impotently if s/he had told Cerberus to go fuck themselves until after EDI's shackles are off, personally. And Cerberus DID save your life, and they DID turn out to be straight with you about colonists disappearing. TIM says if you aren't convinced by what you find at Freedom's Progress, you can leave (athough I figure he's probably lying but let's pretend he wasn't). But you found exactly what he said you'd find. He says if you think you can convince the Council to get their heads out of their ass to do so. But after you go to the Citadel and have a chat with the council/Anderson/Udina/whatever, it makes it pretty clear (to me) why s/he sticks with Cerberus until Cerberus stops being useful. Everyone else that could help him/her is an idiot. The ones who aren't idiots cannot help him. Shepard is basically a big picture kind of person. "None of these other fucktards will help me, I guess I'll stick with the moron with the creepy eyes who is at least making an effort. FOR NOW."

I'm not saying there isn't railroading, but knocking over the gameboard and saying "I quit, motherfuckers!" right at the beginning would basically just be a non-standard game over. Like it or not, you couldn't have done what you did without Cerberus.

[Surlyboi]

I'm still completely convinced that the Illusive Man told the collectors where to find you in the first place and that's how this whole thing got started. There are too many "coincidences".

[Koyasha]

It's not even about doing the 'I quit' thing, it's numerous other options that are perfectly reasonable yet never even considered or brought up.  And frankly, I don't think 'I quit' is such an unreasonable option, all things considered.  After handing you the ship, Cerberus gives very little that could not be obtained elsewhere.  As soon as you dock at the Citadel you could order the ship commandeered, and between the resources of a Spectre and what Liara could help you learn, Cerberus provides little to nothing you couldn't obtain elsewhere.

But even putting the 'I quit' option out of mind, there's a lot of other options where you just kinda do what TIM tells you without questioning it much.  Like, if I remember right, when Horizon is being attacked, he tells you not to tell anyone about it.  You don't have the option to argue or simply contradict that, you just do what he says.  There's no reason you shouldn't be able to call the Alliance.  Maybe they help, maybe they don't, but Shepard doesn't even try.

And of course the most obvious one.  When TIM tells you the location of the Derelict Reaper - which, it should be noted, is in the Attican Traverse, well within Council space, not in the Terminus systems - the obvious idea of getting the Council in on it never even pops up in game.  There's no reason you couldn't get them to send an observer, a science team, maybe another Spectre to confirm your observations, or at least try.  But again, no mention, not even the attempt.

There's likely more examples throughout the game where you basically just do as you're told - the Collector ship is another, where he tells you he intercepted the Turian distress signal.  Call the Turians, get some backup?  If nothing else, there's the slim chance that there's survivors that need help, and either way the Turians would probably appreciate a heads up.  Nope, just do what he says.

Like I said, from a 'there's too many plausible options to actually include in the game' perspective, I completely understand.  But from a perspective of explaining why Shepard does things the way she's doing them, I think a control chip or something would have explained a lot of this.  It might have felt forced, but I think it would have been much less forced than there being no explanation at all.

[UnSub]

The problem is that Shepherd is never sent in to see Cerberus' successes. TIM's "make super cute puppies" project was an astounding success and barely anyone died.  

Of course, within the ME universe, no side comes across clean. The Council is massively short-sighted. The Alliance is busy consolidating political power (and possibly leaving Cerberus to do some of the heavier lifting). The Migrant Fleet is myopic about the Geth and the homeworld. To date, the Turian and Salarian power structures have been absent (in-game) while the Asari are much more visible, but none appear to be stepping up to take on the Reapers / Collectors. The Krogan will fight, but they lack the strategic planning ability to get in front of the Reapers. Other races are a bit of an also-ran.

Within ME, Shepherd is pretty much always right, regardless of his choice. In the above scheme of things within ME2, Cerberus comes off better (to the player) because they are at least doing something. Every other group is a blockage or absent.

[Sjofn]

After handing you the ship, Cerberus gives very little that could not be obtained elsewhere.  As soon as you dock at the Citadel you could order the ship commandeered, and between the resources of a Spectre and what Liara could help you learn, Cerberus provides little to nothing you couldn't obtain elsewhere.

What resources as a Spectre? Depending on your choices, you're not even made one again. The Council in whatever form it comes in is 100% in favor of forgetting you even exist. They don't believe you. At all. Not even a little. Anderson does what he can, but his hands are basically tied. You want them to take the new Normandy? Sure, they'll do that. And not let you have it. They'd just graciously not charge you with working with Cerberus in return. And Liara might be a decent information broker, but she couldn't find the Shadowbroker without Cerberus' help, I sincerely doubt she would've found out about the dead Reaper, and since the Council stole your ride with its ILLEGAL AI they almost certainly destroyed immediately, even if you found the goddamn thing, there'd be no way to figure out the IFF.

I do think there could've been more "Fuck you, you know? I'm working with you for now, but seriously, fuck you," but you could say "this is sort of bullshit but FINE" and I just don't see how Shepard could've done much without Cerberus. I definitely think you should've been able to be all, "And by the way, what the fuck was with Akuze" if you're a Sole Survivor, but by and large I think people (as it's obviously not just you that thinks this, Koyasha, you're just the most relevant person right now  ) are indulging in a lot of wishful thinking as far as what the Shepards could accomplish on their own.


EDIT: To be clear, I cannot stand Cerberus. I think they are pants on head retarded. But it really doesn't stretch my suspension of disbelief very far that Shepard would put up with them, because everyone else in the galaxy is even stupider.