Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Nightblade]

I think my answer is, play through the games again and pay attention this time.

I haven't played through the second one, but the first game definitely had a few "Why are they doing this?" dialog options where the answer was something along the lines of "Who can understand their motivations, they are as Gods to us, so far beyond us that we'll never understand them" kind of thing, which sets my eyes rolling every time I hear it used as a lazy excuse to force villains to do stupid nonsensical shit.

Maybe they explained it better in the second one, but the first one definitely had a few holes in it, as I recall.

...Didn't one character explicitly explain why they were doing it?

Something along the lines of "They're harvesting us..! ..."

[Kail]

...Didn't one character explicitly explain why they were doing it?

Something along the lines of "They're harvesting us..! ..."

Might have said that, but that still doesn't explain anything in itself (what were they "harvesting," why were they harvesting it, why go about it in this way, etc?  When I  go to "harvest" my tomatoes, I don't grab one really good tomato and then institute a genocidal pogrom against all other tomato based life before sealing myself into a pocket dimension waiting for tomatoes to re-evolve from ammino acids).

Not trying to imply that the story is bad overall or anything, but I definitely got a sense that the Reavers were kind of backfilled, in the sense that they had a villain that needed to do XYZ but couldn't come up with something convincing so they just tried to handwave the inconsistencies with "who can understand their mysterious ways" which is something I've seen used to cover up plot holes too many times to take it seriously.  Not trying to say the story is bad in general, but if someone wants to say the Reavers were kind of vague and generic, I can understand why.

[Reg]

I don't think they harvest us like crops. It's more like we're actually a part of their life cycle.  Making a baby involves the deaths of millions sperm and that wouldn't change just because they became sentient and created a civilization. I suspect that's how the Reapers see us anyway.

[UnSub]

Mass Effect talks in several places about a great cycle of destruction that wipes out the advanced races at the time - the Reapers swoop in, destroy those who might oppose them, loot everything of value and then wait for the next cycle (so I guess it is kind of like a MMO raid). The Reapers leave their technological backbone in place - the relays, the Citadel - to leave those advanced races particularly vulnerable to their attacks.

I think in ME2 one of the roles that the slave races have to help the Reapers with is in birthing new Reapers.

However, these massive, godlike entities are quite thin-skinned and can be taunted. I can't actually recall Reapers being interesting enemies - they are just the big bad that the player has to take on.

[NowhereMan]

This trailer really, really felt like the trailer for Halo 3 (or was it 2?) I'm also slightly worried they'll decide that they really want to push a sense of urgency and throw most of the side plots out the window in favour of more ACTION! stuff but accusing them of that based on a CGI trailer would be way too mindlessly critical.

[Surlyboi]

Halo 3. The battle of New Mombasa. That said, an image of the sniper in Big Ben was also used as a teaser image for bioware's action offshoot of ME. So, could there be something along the lines of ME3 and a shooter somethingorother that takes place during the Reaper invasion?

Also, seriously, what the fuck did the Illusive Man do with that goddamn platform I saved for his goofy ass if that shit is going down?

[tmp]

Also, seriously, what the fuck did the Illusive Man do with that goddamn platform I saved for his goofy ass if that shit is going down?

Asari dancers and the red dust were likely involved.

[Lantyssa]

I haven't played through the second one, but the first game definitely had a few "Why are they doing this?" dialog options where the answer was something along the lines of "Who can understand their motivations, they are as Gods to us, so far beyond us that we'll never understand them" kind of thing, which sets my eyes rolling every time I hear it used as a lazy excuse to force villains to do stupid nonsensical shit.

Virgil explains it at length if you go through all its dialog.  Everyone else is all "who can understand the motivations of a god?" because they're done realistically and aren't omniscient.  They don't know, and most don't even know the Reapers exist.  Of the few that do, half don't believe they are actually a life form.

[Special J]

Mass Effect 3, "Holiday 2011"

cgi teaser thingy

Fine, if no one else will say it...Fuck yeah! 

[Murgos]

Fine, if no one else will say it...Fuck yeah! 

We're not going to be able to get this thread up to 100+ pages by the release date with that kind of attitude mister!  Now get back out there with some pointless speculation and whining about something you don't even know is in the game yet.

[Bunk]

My first instinct was to turn in to a raving fanboi here and froth at the mouth a bit. Then I chilled out.

I always felt that in the first one, what really emphasized the terror of the previous race the Reapers killed off, was that they really didn't know why they were being exterminated. Then in two they explained more of the reasoning behind Reapers, but kept the sense of dread up by revealing that they didn't just kill them off, but actually did something worse.

Admittedly, they lost a little bit of that Dread in the cheezy battle scene with the giant robot. And I still haven't figured out why there was a gravitational pull lengthwise on the space station, even on the outside...

[NiX]

MOON ROCKS, MAN! MOON ROCKS!

I'm underwhelmed. I'll probably play it anyway.

[Ingmar]

My first instinct was to turn in to a raving fanboi here and froth at the mouth a bit. Then I chilled out.

I always felt that in the first one, what really emphasized the terror of the previous race the Reapers killed off, was that they really didn't know why they were being exterminated. Then in two they explained more of the reasoning behind Reapers, but kept the sense of dread up by revealing that they didn't just kill them off, but actually did something worse.

Admittedly, they lost a little bit of that Dread in the cheezy battle scene with the giant robot. And I still haven't figured out why there was a gravitational pull lengthwise on the space station, even on the outside...

Yeah if it wasn't for the HEAVY METAL ALBUM COVER BROUGHT TO LIFE boss fight at the end of 2 I wouldn't be equivocating with my (really prestigious) personal Game of the Year vote. Worst thing in the series to date, by a long shot. Yes, worse than the Mako.

[eldaec]

Why?

Honestly? It appears they're running the galaxy as some sort of fucked-up genetics lab, letting evolution drive species along certain specific attributes, then come along and kill the fuck out of everyone.

They use the 'winning species' as some sort of bizarre template for their own next-generation of life, keep a few -- suitably engineered -- to act as their hands and eyes, and reset the whole thing.

The story's obviously been backfitted (The original idea looked more like a purely machine culture that let organic life do all the hard lifting of developing a bunch of useful technology and materials, then basically came in and played pirate -- stealing everything that wasn't nailed down and killing all the witnesses.) but that's the gist -- machine intelligences that use organic life to evolve their own future.

lol. I guess that's one way to use genetic programming.

Exactly as you say, the main story feels like it could have been backfitted as an entirely optional thing you can read/hear about in codex entries and conversation side lines. In practice the story feels like a bunch of tenuously linked sub quests that don't quite connect because no one is really pulling it all together.

This is supposed to be some story driven cinematic experience bullshit with pretensions to literature. That's why we put up with mediocre shooter mechanics.

In the quarians, geth, keepers, reapers, shadow broker, krogan genophage, biotic training, rachnii and so on, you can even see where they put in all the moving parts to develop the themes of morality around interdependence of the species and the rights/duties of the more powerful/advanced groups to make decisions affecting others. Only it never really goes anywhere, the player is encouraged to make decisions to develop their red or blue conversation style rather than addressing the rights of the individual species vs the rights of the galactic polity - this is probably why Shepard ultimately comes off either as a don't-give-a-shit-get-out-of-my-way jerk or as a bug-up-my-ass-follow-process-fuck-the-consequences jerk, rather than as a character with any kind of value structure, or any kind of engagement with the decisions she is making.

The individual stories of individual missions and characters are competent enough, but they ultimately seem disconnected and even when well written they distract from the primary storyline. The only exception I can think of is the salarian/krogan plot which does a decent job of bringing the theme - and kind of encourages the player to at least take a position on the Krogan issue that isn't driven by blue/red. But even there both games so far lacked any real feeling of resolution, presumably to keep all players in broadly the same space ahead of the final game - and no this isn't an acceptable excuse.



I still like the game(s) btw. But the writing aims high and misses once you widen the lens beyond this guy I'm talking to right now and this mission immediately in front of me. If they'd aimed lower and more generic (see: Dragon Age) it might well have felt more meaningful but only because it would be easier to execute. And god knows the last thing I'd want to encourage EA and the rest of games industry to do is aim even lower than they generally do.

[Lantyssa]

Ugh.  Please no.  I know some liked it, but Dragon Age was so generic I could never get into it.

[UnSub]

BioWare does weak and generic stories, but good characters and some great dialogue. They are also often bound by RPG conventions, which dictate a main storyline of AWESOME URGENCY and sidequests along the lines of 'please mister I've lost my cat Mr Snoogles, can you find him?'. The player does the side quests for the fat XP and the Mr Snoogle's Collar armour piece.

I was thinking the other day that Star Control 2 arguably did a better 'fate of the universe is in your hands' narrative since if you didn't get a move on, races would be exterminated and the player would increasingly face a hostile universe.

[Ingmar]

SC2 was indeed a great game, but I think you would have a hard time getting a game like it past most publishers these days, where you could put in a whole bunch of hours and fuck up badly enough that you have to start over from the beginning.

EDIT: I'm also not sure if any of SC2's greatness really derives from that particular feature.

[MisterNoisy]

EDIT: I'm also not sure if any of SC2's greatness really derives from that particular feature.

A good portion of it derives solely from the Pkunk. :)

[Ingmar]

EDIT: I'm also not sure if any of SC2's greatness really derives from that particular feature.

A good portion of it derives solely from the Pkunk. :)

dodo

[Morat20]

You know what I loved about ME2? No Tower of Hanoi. Which must have hurt them so bad to leave out.

[Ingmar]

Sometimes I wonder if there is some guy at Bioware who's official job title is Towers of Hanoi Guy, yeah.

[tmp]

You know what I loved about ME2? No Tower of Hanoi. Which must have hurt them so bad to leave out.

They gave it a nice little tombstone in a DAO cemetery. If i remember right, going something like

"Here lies T.Hanoi
unloved
unmourned"

 

edit: on the other hand, ME2 replaced it with the probing mini-game. Not sure if  that was a good deal, all things considered.

[FatuousTwat]

You know what I loved about ME2? No Tower of Hanoi. Which must have hurt them so bad to leave out.

They gave it a nice little tombstone in a DAO cemetery. If i remember right, going something like

"Here lies T.Hanoi
unloved
unmourned"

 

edit: on the other hand, ME2 replaced it with the probing mini-game. Not sure if  that was a good deal, all things considered.

For some reason, that type of puzzle rarely fazes me.

[Koyasha]

The only problem I had with them was that they were so ludicrously easy.  If yer gonna put in a puzzle, make it a challenge, not something I can do in my sleep!  The dragon age floor tiles puzzle is slightly better, for instance, takes some experimentation to figure out, not a handful of seconds figuring it out in my head.

[Stormwaltz]

The only problem I had with them was that they were so ludicrously easy.  If yer gonna put in a puzzle, make it a challenge, not something I can do in my sleep!

The point of a puzzle in a BioWare RPG is to make the average player feel smart, not to challenge the capabilities of Mensa members.

[Lantyssa]

There needs to be a second difficulty slider then, the Puzzlewell.

Mensa
Hot Stuff on a Cool Night
Normal
Stop With the Big Words
I'm a Man.  Man SMASH!

[kildorn]

There needs to be a second difficulty slider then, the Puzzlewell.

Mensa
Hot Stuff on a Cool Night
Normal
Stop With the Big Words
I'm a Man.  Man SMASH!

For ME, all the Hanoi puzzle needed was the blinking Renegade interrupt during it. Really, all anything needs is a blinking renegade interrupt.

[Morat20]

For ME, all the Hanoi puzzle needed was the blinking Renegade interrupt during it. Really, all anything needs is a blinking renegade interrupt.

ME3 developers -- THERE IS STILL TIME.

"You will need to reconfigure the inputs to shift the resource allocation from the first tier to the third, but cannot allow top-level power flows to " *renegade interrupt* "Fuck this shit" *gunshot, problem magically solved*.

[bhodi]

As long as I can punch reporters in the face, ME3 is going to rock.

[Surlyboi]

Yeah, that was fun, wasn't it?

[Polysorbate80]

I'm a Man.  Man SMASH!

Ah, it's great to be male!

[Sky]

When I was a kid, my mother bought me mensa puzzle books. She didn't tell me they weren't the same puzzle books other kids got, I just thought that's what puzzles were. 

[LK]

For ME, all the Hanoi puzzle needed was the blinking Renegade interrupt during it. Really, all anything needs is a blinking renegade interrupt.

ME3 developers -- THERE IS STILL TIME.

"You will need to reconfigure the inputs to shift the resource allocation from the first tier to the third, but cannot allow top-level power flows to " *renegade interrupt* "Fuck this shit" *gunshot, problem magically solved*.

Oh my god. I won't be able to look at the Indiana Jones vs. Cairo Swordsman scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark without seeing the Renegade interrupt pop on screen just before Indy shoots.

[Morat20]

Oh my god. I won't be able to look at the Indiana Jones vs. Cairo Swordsman scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark without seeing the Renegade interrupt pop on screen just before Indy shoots.

Indiana Jones leads a life of renegade interrupts. (Well, Pulp in general).

[Special J]

Fine, if no one else will say it...Fuck yeah! 

We're not going to be able to get this thread up to 100+ pages by the release date with that kind of attitude mister!  Now get back out there with some pointless speculation and whining about something you don't even know is in the game yet.

Shit, yeah. In that case I demand Bioware puts girl/girl action back in.