Are you pleased with this content tier?

[Nevermore]

I'm firmly convinced that in their innermost secret heart, every hunter feels he's a melee god and hasn't just had a real chance to prove it to the unbelievers. Either that, or a lot of them are just incredibly stupid. Maybe it's the same thing.

It sounds like they're trying to relive their past lives as Hibernian Rangers.

[Hindenburg]

I'm firmly convinced that in their innermost secret heart, every hunter feels he's a melee god and hasn't just had a real chance to prove it to the unbelievers. Either that, or a lot of them are just incredibly stupid. Maybe it's the same thing.

That'll keep happening until they make raptor strike and mongoose bite unable to crit. "But man, if he comes into melee range, i'll raptor his ass for, like, 3k." You should thank blizzard.

[Fordel]

I'm firmly convinced that in their innermost secret heart, every hunter feels he's a melee god and hasn't just had a real chance to prove it to the unbelievers. Either that, or a lot of them are just incredibly stupid. Maybe it's the same thing.

It sounds like they're trying to relive their past lives as Hibernian Rangers.

Living a life of sex and danger.

[Sheepherder]

That'll keep happening until they make raptor strike and mongoose bite unable to crit. "But man, if he comes into melee range, i'll raptor his ass for, like, 3k." You should thank blizzard.

I love these people, they make my time as a newbie warrior seem less retarded in contrast.

[Der Helm]

Frequently, I'd attack a hunter and the first--and about only--thing they'd do is whip out the 2hander (dumb) or whatever they were dual wielding (really dumb)

You get switched to melee weapon(s) automatically when being attacked in melee range. But I am sure everybody knows that.

[Phunked]

I swear the ONLY reason that they gave hunters the jump back on disengage was to solve the enhance vs. hunter problem. Wing Clip/Concussion shot was apparently too hard.

Oh and to stir some shit up again: Ulduar undertuned/too easy/should have massive attunment so no bads can get in.

Discuss.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Your bitter hardcore tears are like wine.

[Soulflame]

Oh and to stir some shit up again: Ulduar undertuned/too easy/should have massive attunment so no bads can get in.

Discuss.

No.

[Xanthippe]

See, it's not about personal best.  Achievements aren't enough for the elite.

They want other people (aka "bads") locked out of content.

[March]

See, it's not about personal best.  Achievements aren't enough for the elite.

They want other people (aka "bads") locked out of content.

If a game were *really* hardcore, it would lock you out of the game itself.

Why clutter servers with people hoping in vain to enjoy your game?

Fortunately we can see how well this will work as a future gaming concept with the release of Darkfall.

edit: oops, did I really say Darkness Falls?

[Merusk]

I swear the ONLY reason that they gave hunters the jump back on disengage was to solve the enhance vs. hunter problem. Wing Clip/Concussion shot was apparently too hard.

Getting out of melee in general, yes.  Did you mean Scatter Shot? If you're wing-clipping you can't cast Concuss, and SS isn't baseline.  They said several times in beta they didn't want to give hunters any more talents as baseline abilities... sooo 'hey how about this!'

Yeah, it's called, "Fuck I can't get out of melee, and I can't shoot my bow so I'd better hope to hell a wingclip sticks long enough for me to try and get away."

What exactly are you doing when an enhancement shaman gets into melee with you?  Given that a shaman's only gap closers are frost shock(matched by frost trap/wing clip etc), ghost wolf(tranq shot/scare beast), and maybe Earthen Power, I have difficulty believing you can't get away from any shaman ever.  Unless you really don't do anything except spam wing clip, have your relevant pet abilities on autocast, and don't use totem stomping macros, then I guess it makes sense.

I *was* killing clothies and mages and shit like that.. then they come up behind me and eat me.   Frost Shock is enough to slow you, traps take time to activate and are easy to walk around, totems can be stomped faster than arcane shot's CD and you had to stand still to do any sort of appreciable damage.  All the while the melee guy can be doing white damage and specials ON THE MOVE.  Your average hunter has been free HKs for even mediocre melee types for a long while.  Yes, there were some very skilled players that made the hunter class shine.  If we're going to balance classes by the performance of the upper .01% of the playerbase, then we've reached a retarded impasse.

I don't play the hunter anymore, as it was obvious they didn't know what the hell they were doing with the class and GC inspired so little confidence in his ability I figured I was better off rerolling.  I can't speak for hunters at 80 and their problems, but Xanthippe's continued frustration with the class does lead me to believe they still have some of the same old problems in a new level bracket.

[Vash]

If we're going to balance classes by the performance of the upper .01% of the playerbase, then we've reached a retarded impasse.

The problem is that ideally the classes or at least most combinations thereof need to be reasonably balanced at the upper 0.01% and at the average player level.

This is an issue because typically if you give the average players of a class a particular tool to help them against other average players, the upper 0.01% players of that class can abuse it to devastating results and unbalance the high level play.  Blizzard has always seemed to have an eye towards the 0.01% when making PvP balance adjustments but unfortunately that balance seems to not always translate well to the average player in many cases.

It's not all doom and gloom for the average hunter in pvp though, at least there's no more dead zone, that's what caused me to gravitate away from my hunter way back when.  Plus now disengage gives them another mele escape option and deterrence finally gives them a nice oh crap defensive button for casters and mele.

[Ingmar]

I swear the ONLY reason that they gave hunters the jump back on disengage was to solve the enhance vs. hunter problem. Wing Clip/Concussion shot was apparently too hard.

Oh and to stir some shit up again: Ulduar undertuned/too easy/should have massive attunment so no bads can get in.

Discuss.

Nothing to discuss. The encounters are still being tuned, so nobody knows how hard they will really be, and the attunement ship sailed long ago.

[Paelos]

Attunements will be there again on the hardest content. They were on Malygos and they will be on Icecrown, I have no doubt. Still, beyond putting them on the single mob encounters who are the hardest in the game, they have no real place anymore. If you can do the content, you should be able to do it without appeasing NPCs by grinding foozles.

Also, people that need others to be locked out of content in order to enjoy it more themselves weren't hugged enough as children.

[Ratman_tf]

Oh and to stir some shit up again: Ulduar undertuned/too easy/should have massive attunment so no bads can get in.

Discuss.

Stuff like that hasn't stopped bad players yet. 

[Khaldun]

What's interesting in the demand to have people locked out of some content is the way in which content itself has become the ultimate status symbol for the people who strongly need to be validated by the game and publically acknowledged as distinct from other players. It's not enough to have achievements or titles or the odd status symbol like a mount that's available only on hard mode. The ability to say, "I've seen X, and you haven't", is the only status symbol that seems to matter to a certain type of achiever-player.

[Lakov_Sanite]

What's interesting in the demand to have people locked out of some content is the way in which content itself has become the ultimate status symbol for the people who strongly need to be validated by the game and publically acknowledged as distinct from other players. It's not enough to have achievements or titles or the odd status symbol like a mount that's available only on hard mode. The ability to say, "I've seen X, and you haven't", is the only status symbol that seems to matter to a certain type of achiever-player.

It's because it threatens the structure of how things work right now. Raid guilds only survive through recruitment and one of the biggest reasons people join raid guilds is to see that content. Now that people can easily fight kel thuzad in a pug, why bother applying to a 'serious' guild? If anything this will cause a lot of raid guilds to falter and splinter but I wouldn't so easily discount the allure of achievements and titles either.

Many achiever types have already shifted their focus towards titles and achievements and are doing fine with it. My guild for example has mostly shifted our concerns to server firsts and then server first achievements. Sure there were a lot in my guild that gave the whine about "they are stealin our contents!" but they've mostly quieted down now.

There's always going to be a top %5 but the thing is that top 5% won't always be the same people, as the game changes so do the achievers but if you want to stay on top(as many do) it's adapt or die. No one else has(or will have) a plagued proto drake on my server except my guildmates, that's pretty damned Achievening if you think about it and that's enough for most people.

Now if only KT would stop being an absolute douche with his MC, I may get a black drake tonight.

[Arinon]

What's interesting in the demand to have people locked out of some content is the way in which content itself has become the ultimate status symbol for the people who strongly need to be validated by the game and publically acknowledged as distinct from other players. It's not enough to have achievements or titles or the odd status symbol like a mount that's available only on hard mode. The ability to say, "I've seen X, and you haven't", is the only status symbol that seems to matter to a certain type of achiever-player.

It’s not about locking other people out so much as its about locking yourself out.  Harder content can provide longevity for its preceding tiers.  It provides motivation for repeating content, improving your character with gear, and building a player network.

No one wants to run out of new stuff.  If you don’t have the time to see everything then your beef tends to become ‘Why can’t I go anywhere I want?’  If you do have the time then the complaint basically turns into ‘Why didn’t you parcel out this new stuff slower so I wouldn’t run out of shit to do?’

What I don’t understand is when someone that isn’t even close to running out of things to do scoffs at a hardcore end zone.  It’s not like the hardest shit in the game is the coolest, it’s just the last.

[Fordel]

No, it really is about people wanting to wave their dicks around about how awesome they are.


It's nothing new or surprising and probably  worthy.


/captain obvious to the rescue!

[Rasix]

The amount of insufferable elistist twats has peaked with this expansion.  With "top" raiding guilds taking about anyone that can manage to not stand in fire and show up 3 times a week on time, you've got a whole mess of people that are waiting on 3.1.  In TBC, this was typically only one guild.

Folks that I raided with last expansion (and were bad players then) are now expansion clearing badasses that are too cool for school.  It's really annoying when some jackass is bragging about how absolutely awesome he is, when you remember the time you had to explain to him what spell hit did.

[Fabricated]

Ahahah, you want funny go google Ensidia and read their front page. What a bunch of fucking chodes.

[Hayduke]

I like that it's easier to pug content.  I can't find a late night guild for the life of me and everyone I look at makes it more difficult to get into than the mob.  But I can still get my shinies by showing up to PUG raids.  And tbh most of them haven't been too bad.

[Selby]

Why do I hate difficult grinding attunements?  Because of guilds that recruit with the lines "must be T2 geared\Naxx attuned" from the old days and won't even consider looking at you otherwise.  And when you try and get guildmates to help you get attuned, their response is either "fuck you, I PUG'ed that shit and so will you" or "all right!  Let's go see BWL!  Do we need a tank?"  There really is a divide between casual and hardcore, and it's quite wide at times.  Anything Blizzard can do to bring that closer in only helps me.

[Chimpy]

Frequently, I'd attack a hunter and the first--and about only--thing they'd do is whip out the 2hander (dumb) or whatever they were dual wielding (really dumb)

You get switched to melee weapon(s) automatically when being attacked in melee range. But I am sure everybody knows that.

You can turn that "feature" off.

I know I did the second I found the option as it would fuck up autoshot being toggled on and off.

[Sjofn]

No one wants to run out of new stuff.  If you don’t have the time to see everything then your beef tends to become ‘Why can’t I go anywhere I want?’  If you do have the time then the complaint basically turns into ‘Why didn’t you parcel out this new stuff slower so I wouldn’t run out of shit to do?’

What I don’t understand is when someone that isn’t even close to running out of things to do scoffs at a hardcore end zone.  It’s not like the hardest shit in the game is the coolest, it’s just the last.

I ran out of "new stuff" a lot faster when I had nothing but 5 mans to do, and slightly less faster when I had only two ten man raids to do. My casual-ass guild downed Kel'thuzad for the first time last week, and I still have yet to do a successful Eye. The exciting thing for me and lots and lots and lots of players like me is that instead of the OLD way of doing shit, where I would be out of stuff to do already, realistically speaking, and continue to be out of stuff to do until the expansion, there's this NEW way, where I will actually have something new I will (likely) be able to do. It's a huuuuuge difference.

And the whole "You COULD'VE done 25 mans in TBC" or "you COULD'VE done the 40 man stuff" is ... well, most players like me know that they could add new 25's or 40's until the cows came home, that would never ever be "new stuff" for me, because it was not something I would ever, ever, ever do.

[Khaldun]

Agree with all this. Most guilds (and PUGs) are still having fun with Naxx, and still learning some of the fights. It's really refreshing. You can get in a PUG and most of the time, it's a decent enough experience and people get loot and it's fun and even a little challenging. The reason no one pugged SSC or Hyjal or BT, besides attunements, was that you simply couldn't expect people to get in there and win. The gear-gating was pretty ferocious, even if you got a pug of people who knew what they were doing, and getting a pug with that level of knowledge (and the appropriate classes) was very difficult in any kind of casual way.

Bad groups can still fail and be painful and annoying; people still look for players that they know are halfway decent, and have some appropriate gear for what they're doing. There's still a challenge. It's just not the ferocious "only the small number of guilds willing to regiment themselves for the content are allowed to even try" of pre-TBC and TBC. Which is great. Long live this approach.

[Paelos]

I've done everything except 25 man Malygos, but I can't really get myself or my raiding party interested about that fight. I don't really like the mechanics involved, I don't give a damn about any of this loot table, and the raid in general seems very ho-hum on the concept. Basically, we run for fun and that fight is anything but in my view. The 10 man version just made me frustrated in who's stupid idea it was to make vehicles an important part of the last boss. It's not terribly hard, but it's annoying for very little reward.

[Dren]

I agree with everything said here.  Our casual guild is no different now than it was in TBC.  Yet, we have tons of content to work with throughout the week.  We have several days set aside for 10 man and 25 man instances.  We have trouble finishing Naxx not from a standpoint of gear or experience, but for time and lack of huge numbers of members.  We can switch out for a bit, but still run into the late night issue of not enough awake people.

From my perspective, we are flooded with content to work on even this late after release.  It hasn't been so easy that we flew through it, nor so hard that we just got frustrated and quit.  Some instances are more enjoyable than others, but for the most part done well.  We have a small group hitting Malygos now, but I haven't seen it yet so I can't comment on that one.

My feeling is that the big content patch will have very good timing for us.  We won't be able to jump on it right away, but will give us yet more carrots to look forward to.

[March]

I ran out of "new stuff" a lot faster when I had nothing but 5 mans to do, and slightly less faster when I had only two ten man raids to do. My casual-ass guild downed Kel'thuzad for the first time last week, and I still have yet to do a successful Eye. The exciting thing for me and lots and lots and lots of players like me is that instead of the OLD way of doing shit, where I would be out of stuff to do already, realistically speaking, and continue to be out of stuff to do until the expansion, there's this NEW way, where I will actually have something new I will (likely) be able to do. It's a huuuuuge difference.

Nicely put.

[bhodi]

I've done everything except 25 man Malygos, but I can't really get myself or my raiding party interested about that fight. I don't really like the mechanics involved, I don't give a damn about any of this loot table, and the raid in general seems very ho-hum on the concept. Basically, we run for fun and that fight is anything but in my view. The 10 man version just made me frustrated in who's stupid idea it was to make vehicles an important part of the last boss. It's not terribly hard, but it's annoying for very little reward.

You've done Sarth+2/3? If you can pull that off, you should be able to do maly 25 in your sleep. Phase three really isn't all that. It is, in fact, 3 minutes of circle strafing while hitting 1 1 2 1 1 2 over and over again. Not the most fun fight, but there are some okay loots. I've got the healer shoes and pants, which are best-in-slot until uldar.


I pretty much agree with Dren and most others. I've talked in this and other threads about how I'm between semi-hardcore and hardcore depending on the definition. What's really great about the current content and blizzard's move to more casual play is that we have more wiggle room on who we can take. This is especially important in 'family-friendly' guilds like mine - we have several couples and (generally speaking, not trying to be sexist) the wife/girlfriend is generally not a top-notch player. With the reduced barrier to entry, we (as officers) feel more comfortable about 'settling' for someone who has a good personality or is with someone else. We don't have to worry that, as long as they can pick up fights, we don't need to kick them out if they can't break 2500dps or whatever. It's cool, we can still finish the content.

It's not like the "old days" at all, where you had to put up with a bunch of whiny loot-whoring jackasses if you wanted to see end-game content. You can start to take people more based on personality than on skill level. In my opinion, that is a huge step forward. (Now that I've evolved a bit out of my whiny loot-whoring jackass phase back from when the game launched)

[Nonentity]

I like it. I can be casual and play one day a week, and be competitive. Love being near the top of DPS charts against people in my guild who put in a lot more time than I do.

I basically have given up on the PvP aspect of the game, and play it for PvE. I've cleared everything except 3-drake 25 man Sarth, and 3-drake 10 man Sarth. I'll be getting my 3-drake 10 man out of the way this next coming week.

[Paelos]

I've done everything except 25 man Malygos, but I can't really get myself or my raiding party interested about that fight. I don't really like the mechanics involved, I don't give a damn about any of this loot table, and the raid in general seems very ho-hum on the concept. Basically, we run for fun and that fight is anything but in my view. The 10 man version just made me frustrated in who's stupid idea it was to make vehicles an important part of the last boss. It's not terribly hard, but it's annoying for very little reward.

You've done Sarth+2/3? If you can pull that off, you should be able to do maly 25 in your sleep. Phase three really isn't all that. It is, in fact, 3 minutes of circle strafing while hitting 1 1 2 1 1 2 over and over again. Not the most fun fight, but there are some okay loots. I've got the healer shoes and pants, which are best-in-slot until uldar.

Like I said, not hard just stupid and not at all amusing. Phase 3 isn't the biggest issue, it's mostly just the timer in combination with the stupid vehicles. I really really hate timed fights the way Blizzard has instituted them. They know we can outlast, so they put in these false doombuttons when you take a while. I can't get interest because I think people know I'm not interested in it as well as them not giving a damn either. 226 items are nice and all, but I know better ones are coming down the line in bulk and with vehicles that aren't odd Z-axis nonsense.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I've done everything except 25 man Malygos, but I can't really get myself or my raiding party interested about that fight. I don't really like the mechanics involved, I don't give a damn about any of this loot table, and the raid in general seems very ho-hum on the concept. Basically, we run for fun and that fight is anything but in my view. The 10 man version just made me frustrated in who's stupid idea it was to make vehicles an important part of the last boss. It's not terribly hard, but it's annoying for very little reward.

You've done Sarth+2/3? If you can pull that off, you should be able to do maly 25 in your sleep. Phase three really isn't all that. It is, in fact, 3 minutes of circle strafing while hitting 1 1 2 1 1 2 over and over again. Not the most fun fight, but there are some okay loots. I've got the healer shoes and pants, which are best-in-slot until uldar.

Like I said, not hard just stupid and not at all amusing. Phase 3 isn't the biggest issue, it's mostly just the timer in combination with the stupid vehicles. I really really hate timed fights the way Blizzard has instituted them. They know we can outlast, so they put in these false doombuttons when you take a while. I can't get interest because I think people know I'm not interested in it as well as them not giving a damn either. 226 items are nice and all, but I know better ones are coming down the line in bulk and with vehicles that aren't odd Z-axis nonsense.

Malygos' timer isnt hard to beat nor are most in the game (thaddius was pretty hard in blue gear) mostly enrage timers are a lazy check that im fine with.  let's be honest, tons of guilds of people that are either spamming one attack button or flat out not paying attention on some fights, the timers just make it so you get penalized for your dps trying to sleep through certain fights.

[Xanthippe]

Frequently, I'd attack a hunter and the first--and about only--thing they'd do is whip out the 2hander (dumb) or whatever they were dual wielding (really dumb)

You get switched to melee weapon(s) automatically when being attacked in melee range. But I am sure everybody knows that.

You can turn that "feature" off.

I know I did the second I found the option as it would fuck up autoshot being toggled on and off.

I don't think it fucks up autoshot's toggle anymore.

[Selby]

let's be honest, tons of guilds of people that are either spamming one attack button or flat out not paying attention on some fights, the timers just make it so you get penalized for your dps trying to sleep through certain fights.

Probably the closest truth out there.  We had a mage that was barely breaking 500DPS on 10-man Naxx and OS.  Analyzing the fight logs and damage showed that the mage was casting one spell every 5-6s.  And it was something like Fireblast and waiting for the cooldown or Pyroblast.  Most of the issues we have had with DPS are people seriously just flat out not paying attention or doing really random things that may have gotten them through to 80 soloing without regard for any kind of efficiency.  I don't like riding people or even telling them that they need to do better, but in this case if half the raid is asleep at the wheel or only casting Arcane Missiles at the darkness you aren't going to finish in a remotely timely manner.  If OS-10 and the spider wing of Naxx take any longer than 25-35m for our old main raid group, I know we aren't bringing our A-game.