SoE New flagship project

[Mrbloodworth]

Aeria Games

OG Planet

Nexion

gPotato

Ncsoft 2

Habbo Hotell

club penguin

Pocketvile

There is a reason Korean and Chinese MMO's are rejected wholesale by western audiences. You notice Blizzard bans thousands of accounts for RMT and related activities. Why would they do that if they had a stake in the RMT market. Why would they do that if they didn't view it as harmful to the game. I can see them cashing in on aesthetics but XP potions and gear? Not if they want a successful game. Its barely tolerable in EVE.

Its only harmfull to games that are not designed for it. You seem to keep forgetting that RMT, and a games design, matter. Its not Black and white.

[Woody]

SOE will keep trying RMT in various forms until Smedley quits or gets canned.  The problem they have is they need cash and end up getting greedy and pissing off players.  Look at their whipping boy SWG, they introduce a CCG that they say is completely separate from the MMO, the tell their players that ideas generated in a "what would you like to see implemented" thread can't be done due to various reasons/lack of devs etc., then introduce those ideas into the card game a few months later which just happen to be able to be used in the game.

So development of new stuff is withheld so you can buy it in card packs later, all while still paying your $15 bucks a month.  Now thats how SOE does business.

[Stephen Zepp]

Both Ace of Aces (WWI dogfighting game)  and Lore (mech simulator game) have pretty much proven to us at least that their are ways to do incremental transactions that affect game play without completely destroying your player base--and our first attempts at the concept (Galcon and Rokkitball "3 plays per day trial") proved that there are many ways to screw it up, too.

In Both Lore and AoA, you can play the full game with a limited subset of planes/mechs for free, and if you choose purchase additional planes (AoA), or use of the Mav Lab to totally customize your Mav. There was a tiny bit of complaint in the forums initially, but we've not heard a single complaint in months, and people are buying up the planes/Mav Lab like hotcakes.

[gryeyes]

Its only harmfull to games that are not designed for it. You seem to keep forgetting that RMT, and a games design, matter. Its not Black and white.

Its not a Black and white issue to be sure. But i must say games "designed around" RMT suck huge amounts of ass. EVE is a good example for how RMT can be implemented in a game i suppose.

Both Ace of Aces (WWI dogfighting game)  and Lore (mech simulator game) have pretty much proven to us at least that their are ways to do incremental transactions that affect game play without completely destroying your player base

Have not heard of either game. And cant seem to find them. Have a link?

[Bzalthek]

Both Ace of Aces (WWI dogfighting game)  and Lore (mech simulator game) have pretty much proven to us at least that their are ways to do incremental transactions that affect game play without completely destroying your player base--and our first attempts at the concept (Galcon and Rokkitball "3 plays per day trial") proved that there are many ways to screw it up, too.

In Both Lore and AoA, you can play the full game with a limited subset of planes/mechs for free, and if you choose purchase additional planes (AoA), or use of the Mav Lab to totally customize your Mav. There was a tiny bit of complaint in the forums initially, but we've not heard a single complaint in months, and people are buying up the planes/Mav Lab like hotcakes.

I knew the future was doomed.

[Nebu]

Ace of Aces was a two player picture book game made around 1980.  Wiki link here.  Pictures here.

God I played the hell out of that game. 

[gryeyes]

For some reason i don't think he means that game.

Wonder how much per page they charge.

[Nebu]

For some reason i don't think he means that game.

He means the 1999 remake.  I just like to point out the classics when I get the chance. 

[Lantyssa]

And while im certain Blizzard has all sorts of information for the profit generated by gold sellers. I am also sure they have information on how much of their player base finds the concept detestable. Ill be pretty shocked if a western MMO in the next decade uses RMT as major component in its billing scheme. RMT is not some new market or concept it has existed for over a decade (that i am aware of). Yet remains strangely missing from every major western MMO.

MMO players are not virtuous.

There is a reason Korean and Chinese MMO's are rejected wholesale by western audiences. You notice Blizzard bans thousands of accounts for RMT and related activities. Why would they do that if they had a stake in the RMT market. Why would they do that if they didn't view it as harmful to the game. I can see them cashing in on aesthetics but XP potions and gear? Not if they want a successful game. Its barely tolerable in EVE.

The reason is grind and bad game play.

[Mrbloodworth]

But i must say games "designed around" RMT suck huge amounts of ass.

I disagree, im playing a few that if they were subscription based, i would not be. I enjoy the ability to use Ala cart game content. I currently play Wizard 101, and only ever give them money when i run out of content in the zones i have unlocked.

Same thing with Exteel, however Exteel is designed such that "The best" items are from in game credits only, and the Micro transaction ones are slightly bellow.

Runes of magic is another good one, i have yet to give them ANYTHING and have been enjoying the time i play, and have not once thought "I have to have this to play". I MAY however buy a permanent horse, but fuck, horses are a loot drop, and you can rent them for in game currency, AND they have added a 3ed type of coin that is used to buy cash shop items, but are ONLY gained in game. Quite the poster child for "Whats my time worth?". Grind out 20 quests, or pay 2$.

This, also has not one single impact on anyone else, and if you think it does, you have a severe case of "Keeping up with the Joneses", only, this is a fake world where it doesn't fucking matter, your only competing with yourself.

Design and implementation matter, so its hard to use blanket statements, because you would be wrong.

[gryeyes]

Ya, sorry every game you mentioned i have tried other than Wizard 101 (strangely saw a commercial for it today) and are below my standards for time investment. I am not a very picky gamer trying to say those games are in any fashion "good" or "well designed" is kinda silly.

MMO players are not virtuous.

Disdain of cheating is widespread. Western expect fairness and equality in all matters. Especially in regards to competition.

The reason is grind and bad game play

.

Ya strangely that grinding seems to be linked to trying to milk people to avoid it.

[Merusk]

People hate cheaters... but will cheat if given the chance.   When caught, we cry for exploits to be fixed.. and grumble that it's 'not as easy' later.

We only hate cheaters because they got caught, and made cheating harder. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Ya, sorry every game you mentioned i have tried other than Wizard 101 (strangely saw a commercial for it today) and are below my standards for time investment. I am not a very picky gamer trying to say those games are in any fashion "good" or "well designed" is kinda silly.

 

[Venkman]

Disdain of cheating is widespread. Western expect fairness and equality in all matters. Especially in regards to competition.

Multibillion dollar RMT business. In the West. Disdain of cheating is spoken more than it is practiced. And that is the point.

Also, someone mentioned there's two types of RMT. There's actually RMT and then there's MTX.

RMT is generally buying something after-market (as in, no money back to the developer) that does make you better. This is not technically cheating because someone did play the game to get that thing. But as we've seen in the last few years, smart developers design around that by locking good-item trades behind BOP.

MTX is about enhancements that do NOT convey advantage over other players in the game directly, are managed by the publisher or direct partner, and is the only type of real world purchase that developers have been willing to try.

There's a bunch of other ways players cheat too. But that has more to bad code/support and/or emergent behavior.

[SnakeCharmer]

I am also sure they have information on how much of their player base finds the concept detestable.

Not every player reads and posts on the forums.  Millions of them just happily log into their game and do their thing without ever having even signed UP on the forums.  They don't care.  Hell, many probably don't even know they exist - though that number is probably dropping.

Besides, if Joe Bob ever received a little pop up that said 'Get 5 percent more damage / 10 percent more xp for 1 hr! / whatever for 99 cents', you could bet your ass he'd happily buy it.  Because think about it, what's 99 cents?  It's nothing.  And they would never be the wiser that a whopping ~10 percent of the ~20 percent of the total population of the game (that actually logs into the forums and makes a post) says "itz cheatin damnit i quit ballzard you suck!".

Forums are not indicative of the actual paying playerbase.  Most of the players bitching about the game/whatever play the forums more than they play the game.  They latch on to whatever is popular at the moment and run it into the ground.  I personally subscribe to the mantra that its best to worry less about what other players do/have and just play your own game.  I've got no need to play Keeping Up With The Jones for virtual items.  If its cool, I'll play it.  If it makes my game more fun, I'll buy it.  To hell what anyone else thinks.

Seriously though.  This whole thing is absurd.  What's next?  Bitching about how some players can afford better rigs / internet connection therefore they have an edge and zomg it's not fair?  

My only answer is: Cry More Newb.

[Stephen Zepp]

Ace of Aces was a two player picture book game made around 1980.  Wiki link here.  Pictures here.

God I played the hell out of that game. 

While I did play that game, I actually mean two of the games on instantaction.com. They are both in Open Beta/Live Development right now.

[schild]

I am also sure they have information on how much of their player base finds the concept detestable.

Just so you know, on a pure RMT game, that part of the playerbase doesn't matter a lick unless you've got a full development team.

If a dev team focused around selling new areas and such, you can bet your sweet ass that they'd try to cater to as many as possible.

If a dev team purely localized a game and their only source of income is selling weapons and such since they can't create new assets, than the part of the playerbase that finds it detestable is nothing but a bandwidth leech and costs them money in the long run.

It all depends on what the dev team can do, rather than what the player wants. I'm very sorry if X game isn't for Y player, but that's just how things go. If I had the opportunity to put together a game that could be RMT rather than subs, I'd go with RMT. If I could hybridize it some how, I would. E.G. $5 for each content pack or $12 for 3 months worth of whatever new content was put out.

[Mrbloodworth]

RMT is generally buying something after-market (as in, no money back to the developer) that does make you better. This is not technically cheating because someone did play the game to get that thing. But as we've seen in the last few years, smart developers design around that by locking good-item trades behind BOP.

MTX is about enhancements that do NOT convey advantage over other players in the game directly, are managed by the publisher or direct partner, and is the only type of real world purchase that developers have been willing to try.

You know, i have tried to explain that distinction in other places, most can't (Won't) wrap their head around it, they just default to "Its all RMT". 

[gryeyes]

It all depends on what the dev team can do, rather than what the player wants. I'm very sorry if X game isn't for Y player, but that's just how things go. If I had the opportunity to put together a game that could be RMT rather than subs, I'd go with RMT. If I could hybridize it some how, I would. E.G. $5 for each content pack or $12 for 3 months worth of whatever new content was put out.

When im talking about RMT im not including bundles of content for a set price such as new zones or class availability. Im talking about micro-transactions for currency or pieces of gear. Micro-transactions in the terms of content packs is something completely different and none of the criticisms i have apply to it. And its not that RMT offends X type of customers. I just believe it would alienate a large portion of the western userbase. Especially when WoW the industry standard does not use it.

Forums are not indicative of the actual paying playerbase.

Please my opinion is not from forum opinion on the subject. Ive played games for many years and most assuredly do many people buy gold or other things. And i cant really say what in their deepest hearts what their opinion is. In my opinion there is heavy resistance to that sort of billing model. And honestly RMT/MTX in the context of this argument are equatable. Someone illegally purchasing gear is still cheating. And i am not exactly sure what kind of enhancement has no direct effect on others. Do you mean like XP increases or other PVE advantages?

Am i projecting my personal beliefs onto the subject? Of course i am to some degree. So even if most gamers are not morally against RMT i still believe there would be a huge swathe of MMO users that wont accept it. Especially with competition that has a flat subscription rate.

[gryeyes]

It all depends on what the dev team can do, rather than what the player wants. I'm very sorry if X game isn't for Y player, but that's just how things go. If I had the opportunity to put together a game that could be RMT rather than subs, I'd go with RMT. If I could hybridize it some how, I would. E.G. $5 for each content pack or $12 for 3 months worth of whatever new content was put out.

When im talking about RMT im not including bundles of content for a set price such as new zones or class availability. Im talking about micro-transactions for currency or pieces of gear. Micro-transactions in the terms of content packs is something completely different and none of the criticisms i have apply to it. And its not that RMT offends X type of customers. I just believe it would alienate a large portion of the western userbase. Especially when WoW the industry standard does not use it.

Forums are not indicative of the actual paying playerbase.

Please my opinion is not from forum opinion on the subject. Ive played games for many years and most assuredly do many people buy gold or other things. And i cant really say what in their deepest hearts what their opinion is. In my opinion there is heavy resistance to that sort of billing model. And honestly RMT/MTX in the context of this argument are equatable. Someone illegally purchasing gear is still cheating. And i am not exactly sure what kind of enhancement has no direct effect on others. Do you mean like XP increases or other PVE advantages?

Am i projecting my personal beliefs onto the subject? Of course i am to some degree. So even if most gamers are not morally against RMT i still believe there would be a huge swathe of MMO users that wont accept it. Especially with competition that has a flat subscription rate.

Multibillion dollar RMT business. In the West. Disdain of cheating is spoken more than it is practiced. And that is the point.

I guess when a game based on micro-transactions becomes a hit in the West you will have some basis to claim this. But until that happens how the fuck do you know? Its accepted on a very small fringe scale currently.

[schild]

I guess when a game based on micro-transactions becomes a hit in the West you will have some basis to claim this. But until that happens how the fuck do you know? Its accepted on a very small fringe scale currently.

It occurs to me that you don't have any clue what is and isn't successful in the online world.

Lurk more. Research more. Talk less.

[Numtini]

Since you got a new and different plane in Ace of Aces by buying a new book, I think that actually matches cash shop gaming.

[Ratman_tf]

 I personally subscribe to the mantra that its best to worry less about what other players do/have and just play your own game.  I've got no need to play Keeping Up With The Jones for virtual items.  If its cool, I'll play it.  If it makes my game more fun, I'll buy it.  To hell what anyone else thinks.

But in a game like Eve where there is a player created economy, what other players do is important to how you play the game.

Too far in that direction, and you're bascially playing a single player game online. Which isn't bad... but isn't relevant to MMOGs anymore.

Seriously though.  This whole thing is absurd.  What's next?  Bitching about how some players can afford better rigs / internet connection therefore they have an edge and zomg it's not fair?  

My only answer is: Cry More Newb.

It's a problem that devs do consider. That's why most MMOGs are designed to deal with latency and performance. Planetside's cone of fire... WoW's empire is built partly on their low system specs... etc.

[Venkman]

Multibillion dollar RMT business. In the West. Disdain of cheating is spoken more than it is practiced. And that is the point.

I guess when a game based on micro-transactions becomes a hit in the West you will have some basis to claim this. But until that happens how the fuck do you know? Its accepted on a very small fringe scale currently.

Your mixing the categories again. Which is fine, because so many people do too. But let's be clear:

• MTX: Legimitate, about selling clothes and buffs. No abilities nor advantages over other players are conveyed. Publisher collects the fees direct or taxes the transactions between players.
• RMT: Illegitimate, about farming the game concept so a third party can sell items that nominally do convey substantive improvement and advantage over other players.
  
  

MTX is the business model many western publishers are looking at, because it has been so successful in the Eastern markets. This is what I talked about earlier when I said 10% (number of registrants who may pay something) and 5% (number of registrants you can hope pay deeply). You'll find most Western attempts at this to be in the tween-target games, virtual worlds, and whatever Akklaim is importing this quarter. These are also categorized as "Free to Play" (F2P), but there's some trying to change this label. Veteran gamers seem somewhat ambivalent of this, because normally this practice is tied to games we wouldn't really play anyway (ie, I don't care how big Maplestory is... I just don't enjoy the game).

RMT is the model the traditional genre has been against. WoW is no different. Their scale is merely different.  This industry is older than UO. It is many billions of dollars. The entire concept of "gold farmers" comes from this industry. If you're not familiar with this term, nor have heard of, say, Yantis nor IGE, then you need to do some research about the genre before 2004. Protip: Google "RMT business". This is the model you don't like, and many veterans don't. Except this wouldn't be such a big business if there wasn't a market for it.

[gryeyes]

It occurs to me that you don't have any clue what is and isn't successful in the online world.

Lurk more. Research more. Talk less.

I have to research more to have a conversation on the topic? Im not claiming ultimate knowledge and anything said i will attempt to learn from. Its not a pissy match based on ego. Just in my experience and base of knowledge a western audience seemingly does not warm up to micro-transactions in MMO's. I admit they do accept it in console related areas. And even with illegal buying of accounts and other things.

But the people that will kick down 2,000 bucks for an account do so purely for epeen. If everyone has the ability to purchase such things i dont think people will be inclined to do so. Nor do they seem inclined to do so by the games that are available to a western audience with item malls and the like.

Is there an example of a western MMO with micro-transaction based system that has done well?

RMT is the model the traditional genre has been against. WoW is no different. Their scale is merely different.  This industry is older than UO. It is many billions of dollars. The entire concept of "gold farmers" comes from this industry. If you're not familiar with this term, nor have heard of, say, Yantis nor IGE, then you need to do some research about the genre before 2004. Protip: Google "RMT business".

I understand the distinction and am aware of IGE ive played multiple MMO's and sold off my accounts when i have finished with a given game. But the distinction between RMT and MTX is fairly irrelevent from my perspective which is "any advantage paid for cash beyond a subscription is lame". I really cant imagine a "buff" that does not have an impact on other players. Competition is a prime motivatator for many players and any advantage gained through cash equates to the same thing.

Even in a game like EVE which honestly is the only palatable system to purchase characters/isk is still kind of appalling to me. The only things that balance it in EVE is the way the game is designed. Even with a great character with billions of isk if you suck you are prey. You can lose that advantage easily. I am just of the opinion that making a game with the intention of having a MTX market is still shit from my perspective. I am not the sole individual saying RMT in any form is shit in this thread.

Allowing the purchasing of advantage in any form does nothing but degrade the gaming experience for myself. It offers no boons and only negatives. Do you really believe my opinion on the matter is rare?

[schild]

have to research more to have a conversation on the topic?

Yes, this isn't IGN or MMORPG.com.

[UnSub]

Darniaq's already come in about legit vs illegit RMT. A lot of the social stigma of RMT has come from external RMT groups who come in and screw with the game. The pure sub model is going to be diluted over time (it's already begun) and titles like Wizard101 are showing how it can be done, where you can buy:

 - a monthly sub of $10 (or less if you buy in bulk)
 - the option to just buy access to particular areas for $1 or so
 - the ability to turn RL cash into in-game cash that lets you buy things quicker and grants access to some unique items iirc.

It gives the players a lot more options about how they'd like to play.

[Ratman_tf]

Veteran gamers seem somewhat ambivalent of this, because normally this practice is tied to games we wouldn't really play anyway (ie, I don't care how big Maplestory is... I just don't enjoy the game).

Pretty much my take on it. If SOE's next game features MTX, moderatley or heavily, it'll be the kind of game I'm not interested in playing. What will amuse me is if they try to make a hybrid, featuring both MTX and traditional MMOG gameplay styles. I bet they'll shoot themselves in the foot over players who aren't interested in MTX, and not appeal enough to players who are.

[Ratman_tf]

- the option to just buy access to particular areas for $1 or so

It gives the players a lot more options about how they'd like to play.

So if I have access to "Tomb of the Beguiler" and my friend doesn't, we can't explore it together?

[gryeyes]

- a monthly sub of $10 (or less if you buy in bulk)
 - the option to just buy access to particular areas for $1 or so
 - the ability to turn RL cash into in-game cash that lets you buy things quicker and grants access to some unique items iirc.

It gives the players a lot more options about how they'd like to play.

How do any of these options increase the options to the standard WoW model of monthly subscriptions. What am i being granted that is an assumed ability in a monthly subscription. I just have to pay more to play the full game.

[SnakeCharmer]

One could argue that expansions are nothing more than glamorized MTX, especially with how much in love developers are with BoP.  After all, you can continue to play the 'base' game, you just won't have access to all the shinys, new classes, and content.

It's just packaged better and more widely accepted, that's all. 

[Mrbloodworth]

When i ran a guild in EQ2, we did events, and i would buy winners the adventure packs.

I'm a bad bad RMT man. 

[Lantyssa]

When im talking about RMT im not including bundles of content for a set price such as new zones or class availability. Im talking about micro-transactions for currency or pieces of gear. Micro-transactions in the terms of content packs is something completely different and none of the criticisms i have apply to it. And its not that RMT offends X type of customers. I just believe it would alienate a large portion of the western userbase. Especially when WoW the industry standard does not use it.

* So they make a content pack that people buy for X dollars and it's okay.

* They make a smaller content pack that people buy for Y dollars and it's still presumably okay.

* Now they separate out their content packs into single items that people buy for Z dollars and it's cheating for people to use?

SnakeCharmer basically said this, but the only difference between an expansion, an adventure pack, and an individual item is the scale.  Ironically, given your complaints, most MTX games have items that do little to nothing for the power of your character, whereas expansions and mini-packs dramatically increase it.  You should be railing against expansions hurting those individuals who don't buy them.

[ashrik]

It's just another wall built with bricks of pure semantic and perspective. Consoles conquered it in their own way, and it's only a matter of time before it's done in a way thats palatable to Western MMO gamers. Go back in time and technology and I'd claim that card/board games handled it, and it's only a matter of time until consoles do.

As to the related topic: as people play more and more of these games, I feel like their stance changes on the issue. It's not a really long trip from "It's cheating and even though it's just a game, I'll still play it honorably" to "I don't have time to grind your shit to have fun. The time I'd spend/waste is worth more than the cost of this transaction".

[Ratman_tf]

One could argue that expansions are nothing more than glamorized MTX, especially with how much in love developers are with BoP.  After all, you can continue to play the 'base' game, you just won't have access to all the shinys, new classes, and content.

It's just packaged better and more widely accepted, that's all. 

That's why I'm mildly against expansion packs as well. But they're slightly more palatable than MTX in their presentation and execution.