SoE New flagship project

[gryeyes]

If you really believe that developers sit down and design a game based around creating tedium you are a fucking idiot. more so you seem to think the words tedious is a synonym for repetitiveness which it is not.

You don't understand the distinction between something being tedious accidentally and designing tedium so can sell a way around it? Its not that hard of a distinction to grasp. Tedium does not promote continued play nor renewal of subscriptions. But it sure as shit promotes RMTing your ass around it.

[DLRiley]

Repetitive task aren't tedious because?

[gryeyes]

Is this a trick question? 

[Murgos]

Is this a trick question? 

When will you be banned?  No, it's not a trick question.  I genuinely want to know because every time I have read one of your posts I feel like I've lost something.

[gryeyes]

When will you be banned?  No, it's not a trick question.  I genuinely want to know because every time I have read one of your posts I feel like I've lost something.

Sniffle

[DLRiley]

Is this a trick question? 

Might as well be.  

[schild]

If you really believe that developers sit down and design a game based around creating tedium you are a fucking idiot. more so you seem to think the words tedious is a synonym for repetitiveness which it is not.

You don't understand the distinction between something being tedious accidentally and designing tedium so can sell a way around it? Its not that hard of a distinction to grasp. Tedium does not promote continued play nor renewal of subscriptions. But it sure as shit promotes RMTing your ass around it.

You are a terrible person.

[gryeyes]

Repetitive actions that are fun or otherwise entertaining tend to not be tedious. I expected such a stupid question to be a riddle or some form of trickery.

99% of every game i have ever played is based on a series of repetitive actions.

[Delmania]

Repetitive actions that are fun or otherwise entertaining tend to not be tedious.

Didn't Kaplan state that a something is a grind only when you aren't enjoying it?

[DLRiley]

Repetitive actions that are fun or otherwise entertaining tend to not be tedious. I expected such a stupid question to be a riddle or some form of trickery.

99% of every game i have ever played is based on a series of repetitive actions.

100% of mmo's I ever played were based off a series of mind numbing repetitive actions that stopped being fun the first dozen times I performed them.

[gryeyes]

100% of mmo's I ever played were based of a series of mind numbing repetitive actions that stopped being fun the first dozen times I performed them.

Neato

[Sky]

Why are you two even posting anymore?

[Ratman_tf]

Anybody hear about that New Game Experience? Is SWG any good now?

[Venkman]

This debate is so quaint. It's 2001 again. Man, I've been saying that about as much as schild's "broad tastes" of late 

These games have always been grinding. They've always had trade. And they've always had people who can achieve better/faster/more-efficient than others. Ever since the days when "graphics" were restricted to the map you sketched while exploring a MUD dungeon.

Nobody is to be blamed here. Developers grew up playing games they started careers around to make better. The players who stick to these games index high for packratting and the constant need for improvement. And many of them eventually reach the wall they know they can't climb without either a serious lifestyle change, or at least a personality one.

Do you blame the players for wanting to constantly self improve?
Do you blame the developers for wanting to fill the market with games players want?
Do you blame the bookies who connect suppliers with consumers?

No. Because you only need to look anywhere else in entertainment to see that even normal consumers don't mind this model. They'll pay their monthly fees for phones and buy new ringtones, music, movies and apps. They'll pay their monthly cable bill and still do OnDemand (or pay someone separate for NetFlix). They'll buy the same movie on DVD, then the Blu-ray, then the iTunes M4V, then pay to stream it on their Xbox because they forgot to bring the other ones. They'll buy comic books monthly and then the graphic novel anyway.

This is not restricted to one genre of one type of gamer behavior. This is general consumer behavior that has been proven to work time and again. An MMO geek is still a general consumer.

So it would actually be irresponsible for companies to not try it 

[schild]

Man, I've been saying that about as much as schild's "broad tastes" of late

I don't understand what you mean.

[DLRiley]

Damn you could have just said consumers are idiots Darniaq.

[gryeyes]

This debate is so quaint. It's 2001 again. Man, I've been saying that about as much as schild's "broad tastes" of late 

Comparing RMT in a game that involves player interaction and competition to ring tones doesn't seem a bit fucking stupid?

[SnakeCharmer]

You're looking at it wrong.

It's a value added service - both ringtones and XP potions.  We're conditioned to pay more for extra little frills, and big time stuff that goes beyond frill.  The fact that it hasn't been implemented yet in MMGs (and gaming in general) more than it already is is astounding.  The next generation of gamers (and in particular, MMGers) are being brought up on RMT stuff.  They don't know games without them.  Games aren't being made for old timers anymore.  We're dinosaurs.  And I'm pretty sure <whatever> gaming studio isn't worried about losing your business because you hate RMT.  They've got 1000's...millions...of young gamers coming up that don't know gaming without it to take your place.

Besides, ringtones, in and of themselves, can be viewed as competitive products between friends.  As in 'who can get the coolest one?'.

You're going to see more and more RMT as time goes on.  It will be something like "Here's the base game.  It's a good game, with lots of hours of enjoyment.  But lets say after a while you want to do/be/have X.  Well, for the low low price of 4.99, you can download Y to allow you to do X.  But you don't have to have it, as the base game is more than enough.  But just in case, you have that option." 

The point is, damn near EVERYONE is connected to the web somehow.  Whether its their phones, their xBox, their PS3, or whatever.  Broadband is probably the biggest push behind RMT. 

Buy now, get now (or 30 seconds later) without ever getting out of your recliner.

[UnSub]

As a follow-on to SnakeCharmer's value-add point: I play CoH/V and have bought every booster pack launched so far. I get a few more costume items and maybe a few cool emotes or powers for $10. Firstly, I think it is worth it and secondly me (and a lot of other people) paying $10 means that CoH/V can develop with those extra funds independent of its slowly shrinking player base. For CoH/V it's a value add to those players who want what the booster packs have, for the devs it's being able to get more money from the playerbase of an almost 5 year old title.

[Kirth]

And you can't really blame a company for using alternative revenue streams other then the traditional monthly subscription fees.  Plus having a set up like the station marketplace lets them to things like :

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22479

[Venkman]

This debate is so quaint. It's 2001 again. Man, I've been saying that about as much as schild's "broad tastes" of late 

Comparing RMT in a game that involves player interaction and competition to ring tones doesn't seem a bit fucking stupid?

No. Not when you understand that an "MMO player" and "consumer" are the same thing.

But SnakeCharmer and UnSub covered that already.

[gryeyes]

While i do agree RMT and micro-transactions are going to become more and more common. I also think that is going to assure a large portion of gamers wont even try the game. I guess until blizzard adopts micro-transactions and makes it a standard.

MMOers are consumers but the distinction is MMOers are playing a game. And a great many people will not play a game in which they perceive they are at a disadvantage due to cheating. If blizzard started Micro-transactions for XP potions and gear there would be a shit storm of monumental proportions. I cant be the only one who finds Micro-transactions to be a black flag to even trying a game. Do asian MMO's who use item malls and the like generate more revenue per "player" than western monthly subscription systems?

[SnakeCharmer]

A large portion of older gamers may not try the game.  But that's merely speculation and nothing more.  Going by the gnashing of teeth of old fogies that still say "we had to EARN it when we were gamers!" doesn't count.  Vocal minority and all that.

And those older gamers?  We've already got one foot out the door.  The other foot is just waiting on something to push it out - just getting older, having another kid, losing interest.  Any number of reasons.  They aren't counting on us for revenue streams - unless you count our credit cards being used for our kids enjoyment - which is who this is being targetted at.  Like it's been said, there's an entire generation of gamers being brought up that RMT is normal, and no big deal.  They are the "next big thing".  Not us.  They've already got years and years of our money.

The way it has always been done is not the way it shall always be done.  It's archaic, backwards thinking.  Things evolve.

Either evolve with it, or get left behind.

You can sit there and say "I've never bought gold, and none of my serious gamer friends have either" and feign thumbing your nose in the air.  To that, I'm going to say "bullshit".  You probably know more that have bought gold or whatever than you care to admit - or your friends just won't tell you.  It's like the dirty little secret no one wants to admit to.  Hell, I've bought gold/credits/whatever.  Quite a large percentage of some gamer friends have as well.  The huge number of vendors selling gold wouldnt be what it is without the demand for it. 

Like it or not, the RMT seal has been broken.

[Venkman]

Do asian MMO's who use item malls and the like generate more revenue per "player" than western monthly subscription systems?

From what I've found, it's something like this:

10% of all players you attract will invest something into the game.
5% of all players will invest deeply in the game.

So companies scale development to recoup in that range. There's apparently some other advantages as well, particularly in Korea, where the mobile and banking industries are more integrated to support these type of rapid-succession impulse-buy high quantity levels of small transactions. But then, the market's been like this for many years over there. Whereas on this side, our MMOs subscription models seemed to start by cribbing the AOL flat-fee idea, which itself did so because of years of experimental pay-by-use/pay-by-hour models that preceded it.

That is the cultural precedent that goes right to your point, why most veteran MMO developers know not to bother with MTX models for veteran-targeted MMO. So instead companies focus on new markets, ones with fewer predilections and therefore a lot less prone to groupthink on what's right or wrong.

There is no single "MMO market".

[gryeyes]

Like it or not, the RMT seal has been broken.

Untill blizzard adopts it i can safely say "bullshit". There is also a vast chasm between people "illegally purchasing gold" and having a developer design around the assumption of selling the ability to circumvent the very game they are developing. Once you "break the seal" and start developing with the intention of RMT and micro-transactions a whole lot of suck is going to flood in. Korean MMO's dont tend to get much praise by us westerners. Anyone who is desperate enough for epeen to cheat is a pretty sad creature regardless of justification. SoE is a non factor in the genre currently i find it highly unlikely that is going to change. Lets rank current MMO's played by westerners. How many of those allow RMT. Why aren't the rest of them doing it if there are no negative consequences?

But more than the "you are a fucking cheater" disdain i have for RMT,MT. Its that if it becomes profitable and viable developers are going to start to develop tedium intentionally to push me towards buying out of it. And i dont see games developed in that manner being able to compete with those that don't. So until Blizzard starts doing it i think any title that does it is assured to be minor.

Im sure that MMO developers do studies in demographics to see if the idea would work for western markets. I could tolerate EVE levels of  RMT. But the ability to buy exp,items etc is a game breaker for many.

[Kirth]

Untill blizzard adopts it i can safely say "bullshit"

http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?tag=CRCFAQ

Tip of the iceberg.

Also :

[gryeyes]

That sucks...

And thinking back blizzard already KINDA allows RMT. With their card packs that have game codes in them. I sold a turtle mount for 200$.

[Morat20]

That sucks...

And thinking back blizzard already KINDA allows RMT. With their card packs that have game codes in them. I sold a turtle mount for 200$.

There's two types of RMT.

There's "I can buy my way to awesome" RMT. And there's "Costume Shit" RMT.

People will accept the later -- although if you offer a way to grind for it in game, they'll be even happier. They'll fork out for mounts that are, at best, no better than easily-accesible ones in the game. Or costume pieces that offer no bonuses but looks. Or nifty auras or effects, so long as varients of those effects are in the game.

In short, players will accept RMT of things that don't really matter to gameplay. "Looks cool" RMT.

They get pissy, and leave, when you're given the ability to buy stuff that DOES affect gameplay, and is manifestly superior to what's in the game -- or is inferior only to high-end cockblock shit that 99% of gamers will never see.

CoH can offer auras and costume pieces because, well, they don't change a damn thing and people already have a zillion choices there. Blizzard can offer slow-ass turtle mounts, or pointless pets, because you can already have a pet or mount.

Not all RMT is the same. Some players will accept, some they won't. At least in the US. Fuck if I understand the Korean gaming culture.

[gryeyes]

Ya we are talking about the game effecting RMT i believe. Or at least i am.

[Ratman_tf]

Not all RMT is the same. Some players will accept, some they won't. At least in the US. Fuck if I understand the Korean gaming culture.

Indeed. Basing a decision to pursue RMT in a western game because the idea's sucessful in Korea seems kind of disconnected. We'll never know for sure until some game comes along and goes hog-wild instead of this trepeditious dipping-of-toes-into-the-water shit.

Call me when that game comes out and we can properly gauge it's sucess. Until then, I'll fear change, dammit!  

[Lantyssa]

Aeria Games

OG Planet

Nexion

<insert several other gaming portals>

<insert major MMO makers which are slowly changing to this model>

Individually, each game offered by these companies is a tiny portion of the market.  Each portal offers between four and a dozen RMT games though.  Their total subscriber base is large, they're fine with RMT, and these kids are going to be the market in five to ten years.

Anyone who says it's not a real market until Blizzard does it?  For one, I would debate that as long as enough companies manage to thrive off the markets.  Also, remember what Blizzard does best -- take a concept and refine it into an art form.  Just because they aren't using it to any serious degree yet doesn't mean they're not going to show everyone just how successful it can be a few years from now.

[gryeyes]

Those Rang Rang gaming portals sure are a good example. 

[SnakeCharmer]

Actually they are.  You can bet your ass western developers are watching it.  And they are dipping their toes in the waters intentionally.  It's not something that you would cannonball into.  Gamer perception hasn't shifted far enough yet.  But it slowly is.

Look, SOE or whomever (or even Blizzard) isn't thinking about/doing RMT because they want to offer their players an even gaming experience against those evil Chinese gold farmers.  They're doing it because they have their own research as to how much money those credit farmers are making.  They want their piece of that pie.

Can't say I blame them either.

Depending on how big of a conspiracy nut one is, it's not out of the realm of possibility that any one of these gold selling companies aren't indirectly owned by SOE or Blizzard as a means of revenue as well as keeping prices at an even keel for their own games.  All they'd have to do is have a GM level account to dispense gold/plat/whatever.  No farmers needed.

[Ratman_tf]

Actually they are.  You can bet your ass western developers are watching it.  And they are dipping their toes in the waters intentionally.  It's not something that you would cannonball into.  Gamer perception hasn't shifted far enough yet.  But it slowly is.

Fuck, by the time it becomes a "probrem", I'll be too old and decrepit to play video games anyway. A few weeaboo games that let you buy bunny ears for your avatar don't bug me.

[gryeyes]

I always wondered why they would be allowed to exist once MMO's got to be such a huge cash cow.

And while im certain Blizzard has all sorts of information for the profit generated by gold sellers. I am also sure they have information on how much of their player base finds the concept detestable. Ill be pretty shocked if a western MMO in the next decade uses RMT as major component in its billing scheme. RMT is not some new market or concept it has existed for over a decade (that i am aware of). Yet remains strangely missing from every major western MMO.

There is a reason Korean and Chinese MMO's are rejected wholesale by western audiences. You notice Blizzard bans thousands of accounts for RMT and related activities. Why would they do that if they had a stake in the RMT market. Why would they do that if they didn't view it as harmful to the game. I can see them cashing in on aesthetics but XP potions and gear? Not if they want a successful game. Its barely tolerable in EVE.