SoE New flagship project

[Venkman]

I want to know how.

Don't put out shit.  Seriously.  It's that easy.

If it was that easy, we wouldn't keep seeing it happen 

"How" to me is:

• Understanding the size of the pot. How many people care about your game?
• How many people are willing to pay anything for it?
• How many people are willing to keep paying for it?
  
• How are they willing to invest in the game?
• For how long?

Once you know your demographic then you start designing a game for them. Because then you can approximate how big your budget should be. "Fun" is not tied to a price point nor a development budget. Both of those equate more to quality. Money does not magically make a game more fun any more than it magically unlocks whatever thereto undiscovered talent you might (or not) have on your staff to deliver.

Instead, what we keep seeing is a bunch of people who grew up playing these games trying to retroactively design something they think they would have enjoyed 15-20 years ago, and that being a rose-colored memory itself.

[Lantyssa]

All of your "hows" are important, but as we have seen with recent history, there is a severe lack of knowledge when it comes to psychology, sociology, business, and perhaps even programming.  If the people calling the shots are incapable of answering your "hows" within a 100% margin of error, how do you expect them to put out even a semi-decent game?

When they're setting WoW as their target, I can already tell you they can't.  Because they don't have realistic expectations about their project.  That means they won't see the flaws with it, so they cannot mitigate those flaws, and their product will perform accordingly.

[Ingmar]

Picking a demographic out in any kind of detail and then setting out to build a game for them doesn't sound like the recipe for how to end up with a good game, to me. It sounds more like the Hollywood movie process of "OK, now let's change this character to a woman/add a romance/whatever else it takes to hit the demographics the studio is targeting" that so often ends up with diluted crap.

Great games start with a great concept and then they find a niche based on that strength, it seems to me.

[Lantyssa]

I'm guessing Darniaq is talking about the business side of things once the concept is fleshed out.  If you make a Hardcore PvP game you know your pool is small so you don't budget for half a million players when you know your demographic might be in the tens of thousands.  Is this going to attract the MMO crowd (older) or kids and what is their income level going to be?

Hopefully asked as a followup to "Our really cool idea is BLAH.  Who is going to play?"  If they're starting with those questions and building the concept from there, then see my recent posts for thoughts on where that will lead them.  Maybe they have been, and that is part of the problem.

[Venkman]

Yes. That. And you're correct Lant: this has been the problem. Because the genre has been driven by people who are designing games for themselves against a budget they largely guessed at while concurrently hoping a lot of other people wanted to come along too (and could get past the messy parts along with them). This includes Blizzard, except they had a lot more money and entered the actual development process way south of the "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could get this working someday..." hope and more in the land of "here's what works, here's what needs to work better, here's what we know how to build".

Because:

It sounds more like the Hollywood movie process of "OK, now let's change this character to a woman/add a romance/whatever else it takes to hit the demographics the studio is targeting" that so often ends up with diluted crap.

That's exactly what it is. This is why big companies rely on indies to do all that crazy invention stuff. Indies and indy personalities can survive the ups and downs of trial and error. Big companies have hundreds or thousands of people, including stockholders/VC, to placate along every step of the path.

It's the price of success. Your definition of "concept" goes from the neato "let's invent something no one's ever seen before" to "let's innovate against something that's been proven to work because we know more people will buy it". Just like movies. Because Slumdog Millionaire draws attention to the creative side while it's the system that spits out Titanics and Legally Blondes that keep way many more people employed.

And no, I don't think creativity should suffer. I'm just offering up why I think it does.

[Sky]

Prob Vangurd II 

That's what you're going with for a first post? Learn what that icon means, newb.

[Vinadil]

Picking a demographic out in any kind of detail and then setting out to build a game for them doesn't sound like the recipe for how to end up with a good game, to me. It sounds more like the Hollywood movie process of "OK, now let's change this character to a woman/add a romance/whatever else it takes to hit the demographics the studio is targeting" that so often ends up with diluted crap.

Great games start with a great concept and then they find a niche based on that strength, it seems to me.

I am pretty sure the process Darniaq described is exactly how Stardock designs its games.  From their dev blogs and such over the years they basically said that they did research on who played their games and what those people like.  Then they spend their time/money building those features.  They know thier Niche before they develop, not after.  And, their success is evident.  It is not Blizzard success, but it more than pays the bills.

[shiznitz]

With the changes currently in testing for EQ2, I have a hard time seeing SoE roll out an EQ3. They are making EQ2 less fun by making all 6 tank classes ultra boring.  Still, this new game is 3 years+ away, probably, so it is hard to say that anything being done today has a new game in mind.

I do agree with some previous posts that RMT will be large in the new game.

[Sky]

They are making EQ2 less fun by making all 6 tank classes ultra boring.

Dude, you made an "I quit" post after the last expansion because you felt you got screwed as a tank class, then after a month you posted it was the best expansion ever except for drops. Give it time, let them tweak it, and adjust playstyle.

[shiznitz]

They are making EQ2 less fun by making all 6 tank classes ultra boring.

Dude, you made an "I quit" post after the last expansion because you felt you got screwed as a tank class, then after a month you posted it was the best expansion ever except for drops. Give it time, let them tweak it, and adjust playstyle.

I don't deny that at all but it just shows how much they are adjusting classes after 4 goddamn years. The last time they nerfed dps which is how tanks generated aggro. Now they are are nerfing it again but buffing taunts a lot. I very well might quit again for a month or two if these changes ever go live.

[CharlieMopps]

I know if i buy it I'm just going to get ticked off as dudes that spent $99.99 on the preorder snipe me with the 'UBERLEET' sniper rifle I'll have to speand the next 3 months trying to unlock. No thanks, I just put the box back on the shelf.

I can see the gripe about unlocking a weapon, I think it sucks fps has gone in the mmo direction. But to bitch about the RMT part? Please provide specific examples of how RMT has affected the power differential on pvp servers of SOE games or gtfo. And really, even then you're talking a niche of a niche. And you shouldn't be playing on a pvp server of a pve game, SOE would be much better served closing those crapholes down and avoiding the balancing headaches.

On PvE, I couldn't give a shit if Johnny Uber spends money on some item. Doesn't affect my gameplay in the slightest.

I hear a whole lot of bitching about SOE's RMT, but I'm not seeing much in the way of tangible effects. Ooo, an xp potion. Big fuckin' whup.

Well, its actually rather simple. There are 2 types of MMO players... 1 kind (me) plays to compete with others on the server. I want to finish Quest x before you do, or get the cool guild house... whatever. To players like me, buying items with RMT is quite literally cheating. I'm not going to play a game where its allowed. Then there are players like you that don't think of it as a competition, you probably don't mind instancing either because you just don't really care what anyone else around you is doing. To you it's no big deal. That's fine, but SOE lost my sub the day they announced the exchange server.

SOE probably made a profit despite the subs they lost due to RMT. But I think squeezing more and more money out of an every dwindling consumer base will inevitably lead to failure. SOE probably is more profitable now than they were 5 years ago, but they aren't growing subs.

[gryeyes]

While direct competition is not the sole motivation for playing MMO's i view the purchasing of any advantage to be cheating as well. Even in a game like EVE where the system is governed with strict guidelines i still feel its fucked up. EVE is the only game i can tolerate it in and only then because i don't play it all that often or get to heavily involved.

[Ratman_tf]

RMT feels like it's outside the "magic circle" to me. I may be able to win a game of monopoly by bribing my opponents with beer, but then I couldn't say that I played a really good game of monopoly.

Real money for cosmetic bullshit is fine...retarted but fine, but you always have to wonder if the bean counters are sizing up the street value of a level 80 character with uber gear.

[Sky]

That's fine, but SOE lost my sub the day they announced the exchange server.

Hold on. You quit because of RMT on another server??? One that has no crossover whatsoever with normal servers? I'd at least grant you a bit of ire if you're on a pvp server, even though the items are trivial and mostly fluff. But an entirely unconnected server?

 

While direct competition is not the sole motivation for playing MMO's i view the purchasing of any advantage to be cheating as well.

How about multi-boxers? I feel that the numbnuts spending the money to run a healbot account (let alone the six boxers I see in EQ2) are part of the problem solo players have. Why balance for solo play when people will willingly buy a second sub? It was eye opening for me to get close to some popular content in EQ2, because the /majority/ of "solo" players are running at least a dual-box. Three-box is not uncommon and I did see multiple 5-6 boxers.

That almost bothered me, until I remembered it's a game, and went and did something else and when I came back later, the 6-boxer that was dominating the solo spawns to grind faction was gone and I could continue on my quest.

And for RMT for uber gear....I'd think guilds would be happy that characters could show up raid-equipped and not have to waste time gearing them up. But then, I acknowledge I know little about the raid game, because it seems so silly.

[Numtini]

And for RMT for uber gear....I'd think guilds would be happy that characters could show up raid-equipped and not have to waste time gearing them up. But then, I acknowledge I know little about the raid game, because it seems so silly.

The point of raiding is to gear up though, so it would eliminate the raid game.

And I hate multiboxers. I always have.

[CharlieMopps]

That's fine, but SOE lost my sub the day they announced the exchange server.

Hold on. You quit because of RMT on another server??? One that has no crossover whatsoever with normal servers? I'd at least grant you a bit of ire if you're on a pvp server, even though the items are trivial and mostly fluff. But an entirely unconnected server?

Yes I did. Again, you don't understand because you're a different type of player than I am. A LOT of people quit because of the exchange servers.

While direct competition is not the sole motivation for playing MMO's i view the purchasing of any advantage to be cheating as well.

How about multi-boxers? I feel that the numbnuts spending the money to run a healbot account (let alone the six boxers I see in EQ2) are part of the problem solo players have. Why balance for solo play when people will willingly buy a second sub? It was eye opening for me to get close to some popular content in EQ2, because the /majority/ of "solo" players are running at least a dual-box. Three-box is not uncommon and I did see multiple 5-6 boxers.

That almost bothered me, until I remembered it's a game, and went and did something else and when I came back later, the 6-boxer that was dominating the solo spawns to grind faction was gone and I could continue on my quest.

And for RMT for uber gear....I'd think guilds would be happy that characters could show up raid-equipped and not have to waste time gearing them up. But then, I acknowledge I know little about the raid game, because it seems so silly.

Multiboxing is entirely different. It's a difficult thing to do. It's not a case of: I give SOE $50 and get the BoneBladed claymore you spent a week questing for. I've tried multiboxing, and it's by no means as simple as buying some equipment. I even know a lot of scripting... and it still was extreamly difficult to do anything more complex than farm a single mob over and over.

[Sky]

I don't understand because it doesn't make sense. You will never, ever, ever see those people. Ever. They can't transfer to other servers. I dislike pvp but I don't quit because they have pvp servers....and those servers /do/ affect me because of some dumb rules they need because it'll fuck pvp balance or whatever.

And you don't give SOE $50 for a BBC. Some other player quests for it and sells it to you for $50. It just legitimizes what was going on through 3rd party sites. I feel it's better to keep it our of the back alleys if possible, and hey, if they make a few bucks, good on them.

Sturm und drang, but where is the substance?

[CharlieMopps]

PVP isn't cheating.
RMT is (imo)
I don't want anything to do with it, and I wont support a company with my money that allows it.
Simple as that.

This is a 5 year old argument and I'm done with it. You stayed, I didn't, enjoy your nearly vacant servers.

[gryeyes]

I don't understand because it doesn't make sense. You will never, ever, ever see those people. Ever. They can't transfer to other servers. I dislike pvp but I don't quit because they have pvp servers....and those servers /do/ affect me because of some dumb rules they need because it'll fuck pvp balance or whatever.

When you support a certain despicable business practice it tends to validate said practice as being acceptable. You justify its douchiness by participating even if you are only participating in a passive way.

I wish to god everyone would stop supporting Micro-transactions across the board so companies would stop trying to apply them to western users. But my fundamental problem is that games are based on rules. You should not be able to circumvent game mechanics based on how much cash you are willing to invest.

[UnSub]

You should not be able to circumvent game mechanics based on how much cash you are willing to invest.

It's not circumventing the game mechanics if the game mechanics allow it. 

[Ratman_tf]

You should not be able to circumvent game mechanics based on how much cash you are willing to invest.

It's not circumventing the game mechanics if the game mechanics allow it. 

I think I'd rather the devs put more effort into, y'know, making the game fun to play.

[Ubvman]

The evils of RMT and multi-boxers!....

    

edit add:
You know, back in hoary days of EQ1's GoD (the worst ever expansion for ANY GAME!); I always thought to myself, " if only there was a game that took all the suck out of this game and did it all better - it would make millions." I was wrong, WoW made billions... 

I'm thinking something along the same line these days. Someone needs to make a game that is unashamedly RMT, do it right and make a fortune. It can be done, it can be done RIGHT, and it can be fun - it won't appeal to everyone but thats alright.  The time is ripe for this sub-genre of MMOGs in the Western markets.

[schild]

People are already making fortunes in RMT.

[DLRiley]

4 steps to make money in the new mmo market.

1. Make grindy piece of shit
2. Create cash shop; IE pay to escape the grind
3. ??
4. Profit

Has been working for 5+ years.

Disclaimer works best if your a F2P game with low graphic requirements/client download.

[Delmania]

4 steps to make money in the new mmo market.

1. Make grindy piece of shit
2. Create cash shop; IE pay to escape the grind
3. ??
4. Profit

Has been working for 5+ years.

Disclaimer works best if your a F2P game with low graphic requirements/client download.

You could have just stated "Make an AMMO (Asian MMO)"

[DLRiley]

4 steps to make money in the new mmo market.

1. Make grindy piece of shit
2. Create cash shop; IE pay to escape the grind
3. ??
4. Profit

Has been working for 5+ years.

Disclaimer works best if your a F2P game with low graphic requirements/client download.

You could have just stated "Make an AMMO (Asian MMO)"

Works in the states too. I saw maple story gift cards in rite aid... people have no problem playing asian games they just don't like paying a monthly sub for one.

[gryeyes]

The Maple story time card and Tabula Rasa CE gift bundle!

[DLRiley]

The Maple story time card and Tabula Rasa CE gift bundle!

Maple Story isn't getting closed.

[Sky]

PVP isn't cheating.
RMT is (imo)
I don't want anything to do with it, and I wont support a company with my money that allows it.
Simple as that.

This is a 5 year old argument and I'm done with it. You stayed, I didn't, enjoy your nearly vacant servers.

I never said pvp is cheating. I said it directly affects me via the game's rulesets, some patches address balance issues that have nothing to do with the vast majority of players and the game would be better served by not trying to tack on a shitty pvp ruleset. RMT doesn't affect me in the slightest, but I don't have an epeen.

When you support a certain despicable business practice it tends to validate said practice as being acceptable. You justify its douchiness by participating even if you are only participating in a passive way.

Hm. Really? Despicable? I don't see it that way. Exchange is player to player, and easily avoided by not making a character on that server. The Station Cash or whatever they call it is for cheesy shit like xp potions, and I play xp-capped, mostly. I really don't give a shit. Even if they offered tangible stuff, it wouldn't mean shit to me, because I don't give a fuck what other players have for gear.

I find the despicable practice to be the raid content and endgame drama, but as there's really no way to avoid that and still be playing an mmo, I just avoid it as best I can ingame.

You know, maybe I even derive a bit of glee that RMT causes so much panty-bunching in folks who have epeens. A journey of self-discovery, this is!

[gryeyes]

I dont think the concept of being able to buy your way out of playing a game is really a threat to my epeen. More so it is an affront to any concept of fair play and entices even more invasive nickle and diming schemes.

Either you understand what fair play is or you do not. Developing a game with reference to how tedious you can make some aspect of it to generate additional revenue to avoid it does not seem to have an upside to anyone but those with epeen envy.

[Sky]

You don't seem to understand that the "buying your way out of playing a game" type of RMT (read: not station cash, not LoN) is limited to servers that have a no-transfer policy to regular non-RMT servers. Also, it's facilitating player to player transactions, you're not buying a sword from SOE, you're buying it from another player. Same way I was selling fishbone earrings back in 1999 in EQ. Why shouldn't SOE get a cut of what's going on anyway, and even better to segment players inclined to that ruleset on their own servers, which means LESS RMT on normal servers. I'd think you'd like that.

The game is already developed to be tedious, it's an mmo. Is it fair that some people can play for 8 hours a day, but I can only fit in 2? Isn't that an 'affront to fair play'?

[Ratman_tf]

The game is already developed to be tedious, it's an mmo. Is it fair that some people can play for 8 hours a day, but I can only fit in 2? Isn't that an 'affront to fair play'?

I think it is. I think time sinks should not have the same kinds of rewards as other types of play. Like WoW rewards PvP with PvP rewards, and PvE with PvE rewards (although there is some crossover, natch) timesink rewards should be like... cosmetics or titles. People who have extra time should be able to benefit from that, but not in core gameplay ways... does that make sense?
We still have to come up with a baseline for what kind of time spent is "fair" though. 

[DLRiley]

I dont think the concept of being able to buy your way out of playing a game is really a threat to my epeen. More so it is an affront to any concept of fair play and entices even more invasive nickle and diming schemes.

Either you understand what fair play is or you do not. Developing a game with reference to how tedious you can make some aspect of it to generate additional revenue to avoid it does not seem to have an upside to anyone but those with epeen envy.

Players hate grind, but if you take it away people would go ape shit considering that grinding is the only way they think will keep them or anyone else for that matter playing. RMT simple allows developers to cater toward the catch 22, providing the grind that all mmo gamers figure is necessary for an mmo while at the same time providing a easy out. Because while mmo-gamers will fight you over whether grinding isn't necessary they will happily pay to remove it. To be honest there is nothing really unfair about it.

[gryeyes]

The game is already developed to be tedious, it's an mmo. Is it fair that some people can play for 8 hours a day, but I can only fit in 2? Isn't that an 'affront to fair play'?

I dont think tediousness is a desired goal... As opposed to calculating the RMT profitability while developing a game.

But yes the time one has to invest is completely irrelevant to "fair play" in the context of the game. Allowing ones real world wealth to gain advantage or benefit not available to others of lesser means is not.

I completely understand why SOE would want to cash in on RMT. But as a player RMT will only have negative repercussions. Since barring very few examples RMT is not going to effect me at all in regards to player interaction. But i still consider it cheating and will only have negative long term results if RMT is adopted as the industry wide standard.

@DLRiley

Yes it also provides incentive for developers to create content for the sole purpose of making RMT attractive. How buying virtual progress can be considered "fair" in a game is beyond. And beyond the ability of those with epeen envy to satisfy themselves it can have nothing but a negative impact for the rest of us.

[DLRiley]

The game is already developed to be tedious, it's an mmo. Is it fair that some people can play for 8 hours a day, but I can only fit in 2? Isn't that an 'affront to fair play'?

I dont think tediousness is a desired goal... As opposed to calculating the RMT profitability while developing a game.

But yes the time one has to invest is completely irrelevant to "fair play" in the context of the game. Allowing ones real world wealth to gain advantage or benefit not available to others of lesser means is not.

I completely understand why SOE would want to cash in on RMT. But as a player RMT will only have negative repercussions. Since barring very few examples RMT is not going to effect me at all in regards to player interaction. But i still consider it cheating and will only have negative long term results if RMT is adopted as the industry wide standard.

@DLRiley

Yes it also provides incentive for developers to create content for the sole purpose of making RMT attractive. How buying virtual progress can be considered "fair" in a game is beyond. And beyond the ability of those with epeen envy to satisfy themselves it can have nothing but a negative impact for the rest of us.

Hey before I say anything you just have to know that these following smileys held my facial expression         . I mean I couldn't stop laughing, you honestly think that developers of monthly sub mmo's don't intentionally make their games tedious? Good lord, i haven't seen someone that naive since WAR was in beta. Damn I can barely type any anything further, I'm laughing way too hard. Developers of mmo's will love for you to play 8 hours a day because other wise you might question whether their game is worth $15 a month. It's really that simple, in order for a developer to not design their game that way is to assume that their game is worth $15 a month on the merit that its fun. But wait even the mmo-gamers will say that requiring 8 hours a day to accomplish anything is the only way to keep players playing which in turn is the only way to justify paying $15 a month. Hell devs would love for mmo gamers to play even 12 hours a day but that seems to the magic tipping point for north american/euro gamers. Attempting to argue that RMT is somehow more damaging to players than the current status qoue is....damn I don't have word for how dumb that is. Especially since time = money for all intent and purposes.