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Author Topic: [3.1] Ulduar Preview - NOW WITH PATCH NOTES  (Read 90399 times)
K9
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on: February 17, 2009, 01:48:00 PM

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:55:58 PM by Trippy »

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Ingmar
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Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 02:00:56 PM

I am torn on the vehicle stuff. I love doing it solo; in groups it very often comes down to someone not 'getting' it.

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Oban
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Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 02:02:21 PM

Not fun at all.

Vehicle cockblock to start and then no new boss models?

Wow.

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
Fordel
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Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 02:04:06 PM

I am torn on the vehicle stuff. I love doing it solo; in groups it very often comes down to someone not 'getting' it.

This would be different from non-vehicle fights how?


My real concern would be all the custom UI's people use and how they don't work with the vehicle interface. I can already see the "I don't have any buttons omg  ACK!" happening.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 02:04:28 PM

It's one fight...at the beginning. I imagine the whole thing might take 10 minutes. It's not like they are making you siege the final boss, which would be continually stupid.

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K9
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Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 02:10:19 PM

no new boss models?

Actually from the pictures linked in the article, there seem to be a host of new models:



edit: This is the same as Volkhan in HoL

This one is a re-use of some of the models found in Scholozar. The other two are all new to me, I think.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:12:28 PM by K9 »

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Ingmar
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Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 02:10:40 PM

I am torn on the vehicle stuff. I love doing it solo; in groups it very often comes down to someone not 'getting' it.

This would be different from non-vehicle fights how?


My real concern would be all the custom UI's people use and how they don't work with the vehicle interface. I can already see the "I don't have any buttons omg  ACK!" happening.

The reason it is different is that it takes the normal amount of HURR HURR HOW YOU STAY OUT OF FIRE fight mechanics and adds an entire extra layer of I DON'T KNOW WHAT ANY OF MY BUTTONS DO with a side of OH CRAP THE FAILBOT PICKED THE KING IN KARA CHESS.

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Fordel
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Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 02:14:36 PM

They don't know what their buttons do regardless. You make them take a 'pawn' and move on. It's when they couldn't MOVE the pawn because they replaced the 'Mind Control' Pet Bar with an actual Quick-Bar Replacement one patch and moving the eyes a whole centimeter lower to see their new buttons was beyond comprehension.


-edit- Giant Lava Man isn't a new model. You fight him in Halls of Lighting and for one of the Hodir quests.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 02:15:14 PM

My real concern would be all the custom UI's people use and how they don't work with the vehicle interface. I can already see the "I don't have any buttons omg  ACK!" happening.

I thought this also, but I think by now most people have UIs that work with vehicles. What with all the vehicle quests while leveling, the vehicles in SotA and the vehicles in Wintergrasp.

I would say that anyone who didnt know if their UI was going to work with the vehicle UI would have no business being in Ulduar.
Soulflame
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Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 02:16:15 PM

I am completely unenthused about vehicle fights.  They're the main reason I actively dislike Oculus.  I started avoiding a daily in Ice Crown until I learned I could do it without the vehicle.  Aces High! was an impossible vehicle daily, until I learned the magic of 'Auto Cast Self'.  Hell, most of the quests that required the use of a vehicle were damned annoying, because I really felt stupid if I had to take more than one try at them.  Malygos phase 3 is also annoying, and that's just Aces High! in a raid setting.

We get it.  You think it's a cute mechanic.  It's not, and I hate it.  Please stop.
Shergak
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Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 02:20:47 PM

I enjoy vehicle based fights because they take your gear out of the equation, and makes it slightly more skill based. I guess on the other hand, you can't ever outgear the boss, since the vehicles will stay the same.
Morfiend
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Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 02:20:58 PM

I am completely unenthused about vehicle fights.  They're the main reason I actively dislike Oculus.  I started avoiding a daily in Ice Crown until I learned I could do it without the vehicle.  Aces High! was an impossible vehicle daily, until I learned the magic of 'Auto Cast Self'.  Hell, most of the quests that required the use of a vehicle were damned annoying, because I really felt stupid if I had to take more than one try at them.  Malygos phase 3 is also annoying, and that's just Aces High! in a raid setting.

We get it.  You think it's a cute mechanic.  It's not, and I hate it.  Please stop.

I actually like the mechanic when used sparingly, it removes the gear element from the fight and makes it totally based on player skill and group coordination. If overused, then its a pain, but I think it has its place, and if its the first boss of Ulduar that takes like 10 - 20 minutes I have no problem with it. If it turns out to be a big part of the instance, then I wont be to happy.
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Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 02:23:04 PM

I like the in-game mechanisms to escalate raid.  That would go good with PQs as well.

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K9
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Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 02:27:18 PM

I am completely unenthused about vehicle fights.  They're the main reason I actively dislike Oculus.  I started avoiding a daily in Ice Crown until I learned I could do it without the vehicle.  Aces High! was an impossible vehicle daily, until I learned the magic of 'Auto Cast Self'.  Hell, most of the quests that required the use of a vehicle were damned annoying, because I really felt stupid if I had to take more than one try at them.  Malygos phase 3 is also annoying, and that's just Aces High! in a raid setting.

We get it.  You think it's a cute mechanic.  It's not, and I hate it.  Please stop.

The light in the tunnel as far as design goes is that Ulduar was in development prior to WoTLK launching, and so they hadn't had time to evaluate the reception of vehicle-based fights. This is probably why it was included, and hopefully will mean that future raids won't have enforced vehicle sections.

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Morfiend
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Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 02:27:47 PM

Just posted.

Quote
Additional info on first boss
The first boss has you enter 1 of 3 different vehicles (Chopper, Demolisher, and Siege Engine) to fight your way through an immense Iron army to the Flame Leviathan and defeat him. After that, there's very little use of vehicles by players. We'll have the fight up on the PTR at a later date, but this fight isn't in the first wave of boss encounters to be tested.

K9
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Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 02:32:30 PM

Ulduar PTR testing information

Quote
Ok, we're getting close to the point where we will need testing of Ulduar boss encounters on PTR, so let's talk about Ulduar testing!

We're going to be performing testing differently than in the past. We're looking for much more targeted feedback, and we don't want to just have the zone freely open and allow extended, unsupervised testing to take place. So, when the PTR servers come up with 3.1.0, by default Ulduar will be turned completely off. We'll instead enable Ulduar and specific bosses during times where the encounter team can observe testing.

Shortly after 3.1.0 PTR is up and running, I'll post a schedule that will indicate when we will open specific bosses to testing. We'll have testing opportunities for both EU and NA region PTRs in their respective prime time playing hours. There might also be a boss or two we do leave up for extended testing, and some bosses will only be tested in either the EU or NA. Some encounters won't be up on the PTR at all! There's 14 boss encounters in Ulduar, there will be lots to test. The schedule will be quite flexible, check in the Dungeons & Raids forum and on the PTR forum for updates.

The first set of boss encounters to get testing will include:

Freya
Thorim
Hodir
The Iron Council

Both 10 player and 25 player versions of the encounters will be open to testing, and we expect players to have nearly full Naxxramas gear. While Jillian McWeaksauce might make appearances on the PTR to provide testing consumables, please try to bring your own.

I hope to see raid groups of many different skill levels on the 3.1.0 PTR servers when they become available!

Thorim isn't surprising as a boss, nor is Hodir really. I haven't done enough quests in Scholozar to know enough about Freya, and the Iron Council sounds somewhat generic, if this isn't a 4-boss fight I'll be amazed.

I think this is definately a step forward in testing. The way some previous raids have been cleared on the PTR somewhat spoilt the interest in them when they were released on live. Although personally I don't care about world-first guilds, nor am I in one, I hope that they keep much of it closed off. While this had led to a couple of failwrecks in the past (Kael and Vasj), there have been equally many fully-functioning encounters that didn't get dissected on the PTRs. I think also from a development POV this process makes more sense.

I also like the idea that different regions will be testing different encounters exclusively.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
Nevermore
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Reply #16 on: February 17, 2009, 02:35:04 PM

HURR HURR HOW YOU STAY OUT OF FIRE

Stop making fun of me!  Cry

Over and out.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #17 on: February 17, 2009, 02:36:15 PM

People hate vehicle combat for two reasons and both because it takes gear out of the equation.

Either A. you are used to letting your gear compensate for your lack of skill and therefore hate vehicles

Or B. You are used to your gear compensating for your 'groupmates' lack of skill and therefore hate vehicles.

I have fun in oculus and maylgos, well i WOULD except there's other people involved and mouthbreathers don't know what to do when they cant outgear things like being able to stand in whirlwinds because they have enough HP to not care about moving.

All in all though I have to say QQ more? If your guild can't pull together enough people that know how to use vehicles then you shouldn't be raiding. People were bitching left and right for harder raiding well guess what? This is it, a half gear/half skill based fight to seperate the wheat from the chafe.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Soulflame
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Reply #18 on: February 17, 2009, 02:43:26 PM

I should probably clarify - I don't mind the occasional fight using the mechanic, but to keep people from even getting into the raid instance unless they can pass a vehicle check?  Ugh.

And Lakov?  Let me just say, it's not -my- level of skill I'm concerned with.  I absolutely -hate- Oculus because I have to rely on four other people who can, for just this once, all push their buttons in the correct order.  I once watched guild chat where someone who's fully raid capable, and can handle a vehicle, commented on the 30+ wipes they had on the last boss in Oculus.  I did enjoy Oculus the once or twice I've done it with 5 competent people, it was a very fun experience.  This is -not- the usual case for heroics.

Hell, yesterday I managed to clear H Nexus with two DPS below the tank.  The "dps" warrior was under 1k for the entire run.  (I was healing it, whee!)  The only reason it got done was because the tank was competent, and we had one dps that did more than the other two put together.

To reiterate - I hate people.


Aaand to at least veer this somewhat back on topic, I am unenthused because I don't really relish the idea of sitting around while people assemble raids of 10 or 25 people, only to never even get into the damned instance because Charlie Chucklefuck managed to grab the only demolisher or something.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:45:32 PM by Soulflame »
K9
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Reply #19 on: February 17, 2009, 02:43:52 PM

That argument would make sense if vehicles actually scaled with gear, which they don't. Furthermore, as a healer, vehicles generally push me into a role I'm less thrilled about. While you could heal the dragons in the nexus, I don't see how you'll be able to heal siege catapaults.

The thing that annoys me about vehicle fights is that they artificially slow down content in an un-fun way. You will never be able to kill a boss in a vehicle fight faster so long as vehicles don't scale, and part of the point of the whole gear-progression concept is that it makes encounters quicker and less stressful as time goes on.

This guy sums it up well:

Quote
If a defeat a boss using vehicles and get loot to upgrade my character, it doesn't make defeating that boss easier next week. The upgrades do not make my vehicle stronger for that fight. Also I'm a healer and so far I'm unable to heal any vehicles in the game. They are introducing new mechanics to the game that have nothing to do with the essence of the game--playing your character and making him stronger.

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Gobbeldygook
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Reply #20 on: February 17, 2009, 02:49:54 PM

I think there would be a lot less  Heartbreak for vehicles if they were all just a little harder than the Icecrown daily where you need to dance between the three stances for victory instead of 112112112112112112.
Soulflame
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Reply #21 on: February 17, 2009, 02:53:59 PM

I think there would be a lot less  Heartbreak for vehicles if they were all just a little harder than the Icecrown daily where you need to dance between the three stances for victory instead of 112112112112112112.

You're forgetting about the poor schlubs who's job it is to press 333433343334.

Edit:  Oh christ, those dailies.  Hell, the one daily is broken (the longrange one) because you fly outside of the area where the "see green" effect even works, which breaks the phasing, and disables the vehicle.  I was supremely frustrated when that happened.  The other daily isn't so bad... but still, meh.  I can barely even imagine the hilarity that would result from most people trying that daily, and that's one I actually sort of like.

To clarify, the dailies in question are:
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13376
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13404

Oh man, while I was looking, I was reminded of the "attack from the air" daily, where you use a vehicle to shoot up the harpoon guns.  That's another daily I completed once, and swore I'd never do again.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:08:27 PM by Soulflame »
Oban
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Reply #22 on: February 17, 2009, 03:09:29 PM

I think there would be a lot less  Heartbreak for vehicles if they were all just a little harder than the Icecrown daily where you need to dance between the three stances for victory instead of 112112112112112112.

OMFG.

1112

1112

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
Soulflame
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Reply #23 on: February 17, 2009, 03:11:38 PM

112 is for pros that don't let stacks fall off.  Only the weak use 1112!
 why so serious?

Ingmar
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Reply #24 on: February 17, 2009, 03:14:08 PM

People hate vehicle combat for two reasons and both because it takes gear out of the equation.

Either A. you are used to letting your gear compensate for your lack of skill and therefore hate vehicles

Or B. You are used to your gear compensating for your 'groupmates' lack of skill and therefore hate vehicles.

I have fun in oculus and maylgos, well i WOULD except there's other people involved and mouthbreathers don't know what to do when they cant outgear things like being able to stand in whirlwinds because they have enough HP to not care about moving.

All in all though I have to say QQ more? If your guild can't pull together enough people that know how to use vehicles then you shouldn't be raiding. People were bitching left and right for harder raiding well guess what? This is it, a half gear/half skill based fight to seperate the wheat from the chafe.

Perhaps if you pondered the question for more than about 3 seconds you might realize the people who were asking for harder raiding are NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME PEOPLE that don't really care for vehicle fights. Also this 'shouldn't be raiding' bullshit is exactly what they (Blizzard) don't want.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #25 on: February 17, 2009, 03:45:12 PM

For soulfame, you fit in the same category as I do which is "vehicles would be nice if not for other people."

As for raiding being hardcore? Personally I'd have been happy if all raids stay at about naxx level and just have more hard mode achievements(which i think is what they are going for in ulduar so im expecting the non hardmode bosses to be naxx difficulty)

I do not think raids should be exclusive to 1% of the playerbase and I do not dislike casual players but there does need to be a difficulty curve otherwise your accomplishments at level 80 will feel as gratifying as ragefire chasm. They could have made the first boss a huge gear check cockblock like so many other raids before but they didn't. It seems from the description that half the fight will be in vehicles while some of it will be on foot or on the bank of the leviathan which still puts gear into the equation to an extent.

My bottom line is that if vehicles were in wow from the beginning no one would care but since they're new there's still a learning curve for a lot of people. Vehicles aren't hard to use and your average player is more than competant as long as they don't turn their brain off.  I like easy raids but if three-four people can afk/not pay attention in a 25man raid then it really diminishes the challenge and then the accomplishment.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #26 on: February 17, 2009, 03:46:56 PM

HURR HURR HOW YOU STAY OUT OF FIRE
Stop making fun of me!  Cry
Don't cry.  If I ever make it to raiding levels I'll so astonish people with my ineptitude they will forget all about any times you might have stood in a fire.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
K9
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Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 03:47:09 PM

Small nugget of good news

Quote
Actually, the effectiveness of the vehicles in the Flame Leviathan fight changes depending on the quality of the gear. So someone in full Naxxramas epics (or Ulduar epics!) will have an easier time than someone in greens.

From Daelo -> http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15198911238&pageNo=1&sid=1#6

This fixes one of the major flaws with vehicle implementation.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
Sjofn
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Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 04:33:45 PM

HURR HURR HOW YOU STAY OUT OF FIRE
Stop making fun of me!  Cry
Don't cry.  If I ever make it to raiding levels I'll so astonish people with my ineptitude they will forget all about any times you might have stood in a fire.

I look forward to see if you can beat any of our current losers. KILD.

I love vehicle fights. My ONLY problem with them is that they startle and confuse some people, and if I have to depend on them, it is not a good time. But I don't blame vehicles for that. My only complaint about the Ulduar section is that we should all clearly be riding storm giants.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

God Save the Horn Players
raydeen
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Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 05:13:16 PM

Lol @ V0-L7R-0N. Blizz comes up with the best pop culture refs.  Grin

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
Paelos
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Reply #30 on: February 17, 2009, 05:54:40 PM

Small nugget of good news

Quote
Actually, the effectiveness of the vehicles in the Flame Leviathan fight changes depending on the quality of the gear. So someone in full Naxxramas epics (or Ulduar epics!) will have an easier time than someone in greens.

From Daelo -> http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15198911238&pageNo=1&sid=1#6

This fixes one of the major flaws with vehicle implementation.

That actually fixes pretty much all the flaws with vehicles. Stupid people won't be able to mash buttons any better in regular or vehicle settings, but the overgearing might help mask their retardedness.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Nevermore
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Reply #31 on: February 17, 2009, 06:09:40 PM

I look forward to see if you can beat any of our current losers. KILD.

Well now you're just making it a challenge.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

Over and out.
Numtini
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Reply #32 on: February 17, 2009, 07:50:16 PM

I don't like the vehicle stuff. It's cute for a solo quest, but I felt like it took away a lot of options for something very simplistic and mostly I want to play my character and instead I'm playing a tank or a dragon or a 12' aardvark or whatever. It's not really make or break or anything else, it's just not all that interesting to me.

I think it's how they implemented it all. I never felt like I was "playing a catapult" in DAOC/War, but it feels that way to me in WoW.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
sinij
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WWW
Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 02:03:13 AM

Not fun at all.

Vehicle cockblock to start and then no new boss models?

Wow.

I was not amused myself. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle?

On top of that Vehicle System fights, such as Occulus, Hodir daily, Malygos... frustrating to master, boring once mastered.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
sinij
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WWW
Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 02:12:33 AM

I should probably clarify - I don't mind the occasional fight using the mechanic, but to keep people from even getting into the raid instance unless they can pass a vehicle check?  Ugh.

Average WoW player has difficulty showing competence with his/her own class, that has familiar abilities and lots of practice&repetition time. Expecting average player to show competence ON THE FIRST TRY with something unfamiliar is not reasonable. You need to make sure that new player will be inevitably dead weight will not drag few "experienced" players down or new players will be locked out of "vehicle" content.

Imagine you are a raid leader couple month down the road. Would you bring new player to raid and then risk WIPING ON FARM CONTENT until your new player learns encounter? Don't think so.

Right now getting new priest in the guild means couple runs of wiping on Instructor fight, imagine if this going to happen every time you have membership turnover.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 02:36:48 AM by sinij »

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
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