Ulduar

[Musashi]

I've come to the conclusion that even fairly skilled people in wow lack the most basic amount of situational awareness. I don't know if it's the fact that they personally suck, the quality of the player base has gone down, that the UI is in the way, or that health/mana/useful information is not integrated into the world properly, but we just spent 4 hours wiping on yogg phase 1 because people can't stay out of the god damned clouds. It's frustrating as all hell.

Usually for us there was only a real problem with mind controls running through them.  That only really happens when there are too many adds up, and the dispeller gets overwhelmed.  The key is to get those adds down as quickly as possible.  If there's any more than three dudes up at a time, it's pretty much a wipe.  I know it seems counter intuitive, but making sure there's enough ranged people ensuring those guys die in the middle where they're supposed to and not linger helps a ton.  It's counter intuitive because it means more dps dodging the clouds, but it works.  I swear.

[Fordel]

People have been incapable of NOT standing in shit since forever and a day. There's just more shit to potentially stand in as the fights get harder.


"Must, finish, spell cast!"

[Merusk]

People have been incapable of NOT standing in shit since forever and a day. There's just more shit to potentially stand in as the fights get harder.


"Must, finish, spell cast!"

I got into that Yogg run last night and this was a good part of the problem.  The Mind control part wasn't too bad, but I watched many Moonkin, Locks and the single mage get hit by a cloud as they just HAD to get that cast off to blow-up the mob near Sara.  Nevermind that there were 3 other people doing the same, so they really didn't have to.

The other problem I saw was our ferry tanks were dragging shit right through the clouds, spawning another add.  I think the entire group was getting overzealous, as it both always happened when we only had 2-3 adds left to go on the phase.  We'd still have 2, maybe 3 adds and then suddenly there would be 5-6 and we'd wipe out.

Another possibility is that people have shitty computers/ connections and don't see the clouds soon enough or lag right into them.  That's a fight whose mechanics are not forgiving  of anyone having either.

[Zetor]

Sometimes I wish I could see some of this fancy "raid content" stuff (I play in a non-raider guild with an EU schedule on a US west coast server)... but then I read reviews like this, and I'm suddenly glad my 900+ ping self doesn't have to be yelled at for staying in the fire that hasn't even appeared on my screen yet. 


-- Z.

[Sheepherder]

Sometimes I wish I could see some of this fancy "raid content" stuff (I play in a non-raider guild with an EU schedule on a US west coast server)... but then I read reviews like this, and I'm suddenly glad my 900+ ping self doesn't have to be yelled at for staying in the fire that hasn't even appeared on my screen yet. 


-- Z.

900 ms ping is actually playable as long as it's consistent and you have a decent raid mod running.

[kildorn]

Sometimes I wish I could see some of this fancy "raid content" stuff (I play in a non-raider guild with an EU schedule on a US west coast server)... but then I read reviews like this, and I'm suddenly glad my 900+ ping self doesn't have to be yelled at for staying in the fire that hasn't even appeared on my screen yet. 


-- Z.

900 ms ping is actually playable as long as it's consistent and you have a decent raid mod running.

And don't mind dying to frogger.

[Sheepherder]

The trick to doing frogger at 900 ms is to try as hard as possible to kamikaze directly into one, which you will miss, as well as the one behind it.  Not hard.

EDIT:



I actually disconnected fully that one.  I'm still better than most of the retards you find in a PuG.

EDIT2:

And that might have been the one where I disconnected right off the pull and got a battle rez, hence the buffs.

[kildorn]

Hey, some of us have that achievement! And then we have the rest of the lovable guild. 

[Xeyi]

I've come to the conclusion that even fairly skilled people in wow lack the most basic amount of situational awareness. I don't know if it's the fact that they personally suck, the quality of the player base has gone down, that the UI is in the way, or that health/mana/useful information is not integrated into the world properly, but we just spent 4 hours wiping on yogg phase 1 because people can't stay out of the god damned clouds. It's frustrating as all hell.

We're having the exact same problem.  We can pretty much blow through the rest of Ulduar now, but several people just can't avoid the clouds. 

We run into this problem a lot when learning raids. A few people might get hit by various things on our first ever try then never make that mistake again; however for some it takes weeks and weeks of trying before they get it, and some never ever learn and we have to just carry them.  Our first 3 Heigan kills were all done with the same 4 people left standing for example 

Unfortunately with Yogg you just can't carry people, one screw up and it's over.

[Malakili]

I've come to the conclusion that even fairly skilled people in wow lack the most basic amount of situational awareness.


Unfortunately with Yogg you just can't carry people, one screw up and it's over.

Back when I was raiding and an officer in my guild, this is one of the things that drove us somewhat insane.  Situational Awareness seems to be something that some people just aren't very good at.  It wasn't a big problem until AQ40.  But every raid since then has had SA fights, and some, with a pretty hefty penalty if even 1 person dies.  Depending on how "hardcore" a guild is, these fights actually usually function as a pretty good idiot test to see how should be raiding and who shouldn't be.  Back in BC we had to say to some of our long time raiders, sorry, you just need to improve or you can't come on the raids anymore.  Even now that I've retired from raiding (just plain not interested in it anymore), and the guild has generally improved a lot over the years, I still hear some grief from random people now and again who are privately losing their mind over people who make the same mistakes every week.

[Sjofn]

Unfortunately with Yogg you just can't carry people, one screw up and it's over.

Fuck, that does not Bode Well for my guild at all, then.

[K9]

Having the same feeling. Well we have the keepers to amuse ourselves with for the next month or so; I wouldn't be surprised if Yogg has been nerfed a little by the time we get to him.

[Sjofn]

Same with us, really. In fact, I'm going to stop worrying about it right now! 

[Ingmar]

We'd have to get through the first 7 fast enough to even have time to try a keeper in a given week for me to even start thinking about semi-worrying about it.

[K9]

We've started pre-clearing Flame Leviathan with alts and bads, since the Leviathan trash and fight takes 45mins or so to clear, but after it you have a more-or-less straight run at the next 5 bosses. We're going to pre-clear FL and Razor this week, to give us more time learning Keepers. At 45mins for a run, that puts it on par with a quick heroic. While you get less loot per hour than a heroic, the potential loot is much better, and the gauntlet and boss are pretty relaxing to do on a thursday evening or so.

Also, if a keeper was your goal, you could always skip Ignis, Razor and Iron Council, although I guess if your guild is anything like mine (and by judging what you write it sounds like you are uncannily similar) those bosses still hold some upgrades for most of your raiders.

[Sjofn]

Pre-clearing Flame Leviathan isn't a bad idea at all, except we raid on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so the reset screws it up.

I would be perfectly happy with never doing Ignis again, but SOMEONE insists we need to do it more. :(

[Merusk]

If progression through the instance is your goal as a casual guild, then you focus on FL, Xt, Kolo and then start working on the keepers.  If you have extra time during the week, you go back and pick-up the optional bosses.  Bonus being that you'll have picked up enough upgrades to make the optionals a bit easier.

Yogg needs some very hard nerfing for casuals to do even attempt.  The clouds and adds they spawn in P1 are only one tiny fraction of the fight, but that alone will kill a guild who doesn't think raiding is srs bznz.   

Nerfs I see happening for the casual guilds:  Clouds have a smaller radius, cap on the number of adds that can spawn, no more 'three taunts and it's immune' on the keepers, Portals in p2 stay open longer/ don't go away when one person clicks on it, a longer time in the brain cave.

That's about as far as I'll go predicting, since I haven't seen p3 yet.

[bhodi]

Trash->Flame Lev takes 45 minutes? You know you can shoot the tower on the left from below, the tower on the right from above, and leaving 1 tower up is very easy, making the only tower you have to 'drive' to the one past the bridge on the north-east (leave the one in the alley on the north-west up). Don't attack guys unless they're coming for you, stick together, and pilot down one side. We pilot down the left edge, bomb the tower from below, skirt across, bomb the tower from above, keep hugging the edge, hard right, kill tower, then back and we're at flame lev. Last pack and then the pull.

Even if you want to kill the 4th tower, hugging edges and only going across when you have to speeds up this section immensely.


We're on Yogg now in both 10 and 25man. We have almost no hope of doing it on either. The movement and attention required is, as I bitched earlier, way beyond most of the people in my guild. And all it takes is one. We're going to focus on sarth+3d, I think.

[Soulflame]

Yogg is harder than Sarth 3D 10 man?  That's... just fabulous.

My guild has downed Mimiron in 10 man, but we're stonewalled by phase 2 in 25 man.  That's just entirely too much damage to heal.

[K9]

Trash->Flame Lev takes 45 minutes? You know you can shoot the tower on the left from below, the tower on the right from above, and leaving 1 tower up is very easy, making the only tower you have to 'drive' to the one past the bridge on the north-east (leave the one in the alley on the north-west up).

I was not aware of any of this. Do you need to kill turrets for +1 tower?

We'll still pre-clear because FL+trash is a much bigger timesink than most of the other bosses imo.

[Fabricated]

If progression through the instance is your goal as a casual guild, then you focus on FL, Xt, Kolo and then start working on the keepers.  If you have extra time during the week, you go back and pick-up the optional bosses.  Bonus being that you'll have picked up enough upgrades to make the optionals a bit easier.

Yogg needs some very hard nerfing for casuals to do even attempt.  The clouds and adds they spawn in P1 are only one tiny fraction of the fight, but that alone will kill a guild who doesn't think raiding is srs bznz.   

Nerfs I see happening for the casual guilds:  Clouds have a smaller radius, cap on the number of adds that can spawn, no more 'three taunts and it's immune' on the keepers, Portals in p2 stay open longer/ don't go away when one person clicks on it, a longer time in the brain cave.

That's about as far as I'll go predicting, since I haven't seen p3 yet.

I dunno. Some people Paelos and I know have managed to get Yogg down and I've uh, never been terribly impressed with them.

[Paelos]

The 10 man group? Yeah they are basically meter-watching tards. They just enjoy the sound of beating their dicks with a hammer for extended periods of time.

EDIT: The truth about the 10 man is bringing in people that aren't drooling morons when it comes to actually learning what they are doing wrong, and going at it vigorously for at least 5 hours a week.

[Ingmar]

Trash->Flame Lev takes 45 minutes? You know you can shoot the tower on the left from below, the tower on the right from above, and leaving 1 tower up is very easy, making the only tower you have to 'drive' to the one past the bridge on the north-east (leave the one in the alley on the north-west up). Don't attack guys unless they're coming for you, stick together, and pilot down one side. We pilot down the left edge, bomb the tower from below, skirt across, bomb the tower from above, keep hugging the edge, hard right, kill tower, then back and we're at flame lev. Last pack and then the pull.

Even if you want to kill the 4th tower, hugging edges and only going across when you have to speeds up this section immensely.


We're on Yogg now in both 10 and 25man. We have almost no hope of doing it on either. The movement and attention required is, as I bitched earlier, way beyond most of the people in my guild. And all it takes is one. We're going to focus on sarth+3d, I think.

It takes us rather a while even with ignoring hard mode, but we always do an extra pass through the middle part to make sure all the helicopters on the map are dead before we engage, we were having endless problems getting stuck in combat after Flame Leviathan until we started doing it. Maybe they fixed it now, but I'm a little sketchy about trying it just because if we do still get stuck in combat it takes a REALLY long time for people to run manually back to the entrance and zone out and back in. (Can't mount or use teleporters in combat.)

[Fabricated]

The 10 man group? Yeah they are basically meter-watching tards. They just enjoy the sound of beating their dicks with a hammer for extended periods of time.

EDIT: The truth about the 10 man is bringing in people that aren't drooling morons when it comes to actually learning what they are doing wrong, and going at it vigorously for at least 5 hours a week.

I kinda got that impression when they never got Kael down ever and downed Vashj a grand total of like...once or twice I think.

It takes us rather a while even with ignoring hard mode, but we always do an extra pass through the middle part to make sure all the helicopters on the map are dead before we engage, we were having endless problems getting stuck in combat after Flame Leviathan until we started doing it. Maybe they fixed it now, but I'm a little sketchy about trying it just because if we do still get stuck in combat it takes a REALLY long time for people to run manually back to the entrance and zone out and back in. (Can't mount or use teleporters in combat.)

Bunching the whole raid up and focus firing over vent or setting an assist makes the gauntlet way, way, way faster. My guild tried this after spending way too long clearing that place and it knocked 10+ minutes off the time. The towers and big mobs disintegrate when focus-fired and the little mobs can almost be ignored.

[Musashi]

My feral durid got the crazy polearm off General last night, and is now insane.

[K9]

More Ulduar changes.

    * The Yogg-Saron encounter has received the following changes: Death Ray no longer hits players who are under the effect of Malady of the Mind, Guardians of Yogg-Saron no longer use Dominate Mind, the spawn rate of Guardians of Yogg-Saron is more forgiving, and these Guardians will no longer spawn if a player that is protected by Hodir’s Flash Freeze hits an Ominous Cloud.
    * In the opening sequence of Ulduar you can now see Liquid Pyrite from farther away.
    * The Flame Leviathan encounter has received the following changes: the bonus health Flame Leviathan receives per tower has been reduced, the ejection height from Flame Leviathan has been reduced, the snare effect of the Tower of Frost has been removed, and the cannons on Demolishers and Siege Enginers should now break Flash Frozen vehicles in 1 shot.
    * The XT-002 Deconstructor encounter has received the following changes: the health of the heart has been slightly reduced in heroic difficulty and the rate at which Gravity Lapse and Searing Light are cast has been reduced.

[kildorn]

XT nerfs? Really?

[tkinnun0]

Too little, too late. May slow the bleeding but won't win anyone back.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Too little, too late. May slow the bleeding but won't win anyone back.

Too late for what?  Anyone who's casual and cares is already in ulduar and probably not even on yogg yet, the rest of the nerfs are for hardmodes which is perfect for guilds who've beaten yogg but aren't bleeding edge enough to have done hardmodes.  Who exactly is this too late for because if someone wasn't interested in raiding to begin with it wouldn't really matter would it?

[K9]

Too little, too late. May slow the bleeding but won't win anyone back.

Wat

[Ingmar]

XT nerfs? Really?

Everytime they nerf XT it makes me laugh at how "awesome" we were to beat him before nerfs! Same with Kolo. They can feel free to keep nerfing Ignis though.

[Musashi]

I don't know if they need to nerf the Mind Control on Yogg's adds AND decrease their spawn time.  That's kind of over the top.  I think one or the other would make that phase pretty trivial.  I guess it's supposed to be trivial, as it's the first of three phases.  But yeesh.

Also, is this hotfix, or next patch?

[Nevermore]

XT nerfs? Really?

Everytime they nerf XT it makes me laugh at how "awesome" we were to beat him before nerfs! Same with Kolo. They can feel free to keep nerfing Ignis though.

XT seems relatively easy already, especially since we got three of the normal level achievements last night.  Including the speed one.  And I don't think our runs are normally noted for super high DPS.

[Lakov_Sanite]

XT nerfs? Really?

Everytime they nerf XT it makes me laugh at how "awesome" we were to beat him before nerfs! Same with Kolo. They can feel free to keep nerfing Ignis though.

XT seems relatively easy already, especially since we got three of the normal level achievements last night.  Including the speed one.  And I don't think our runs are normally noted for super high DPS.

It's actually fairly hard to kill xt's heart in heroic difficulty right now, the speed achievement is easier than that since you only need to get the heart to about 25% each time.  My guild had already killed yogg and still didn't have enough dps with 6 healers to kill the heart. Whether some were slacking or not that's still a pretty rough dps check.

[Ingmar]

XT nerfs? Really?

Everytime they nerf XT it makes me laugh at how "awesome" we were to beat him before nerfs! Same with Kolo. They can feel free to keep nerfing Ignis though.

XT seems relatively easy already, especially since we got three of the normal level achievements last night.  Including the speed one.  And I don't think our runs are normally noted for super high DPS.

Well they already nerfed him like 32 other times before this latest one.