Gaming: Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2

[Jain Zar]

I just don't get this whole silliness about having to earn the fun parts.  It boggles my mind.  It should always be fun.  I know there will be lulls in the awesome bits, but it should always be enjoyable in some way.  Obviously from my avatar I play miniatures games.  I get in arguements with people who think one should spend dozens if not hundreds of hours painting and converting their silly toy soldiers before they are even allowed to be used.  I quickly cut off the flash, glue em together, and run them on the field.  If I had to spend all this time making them pretty before playing I would never play.  Which is why those Wizkids prepainted collectible minis sell by the bucketload.  Its instant fun.  Sure I go back and paint my minis, but that is because I had FUN PLAYING and want them to look nice on the field because I have some pride and am anal retentive so painted makes me feel better down in the soul.

Sure KOTOR was a little slow to start, but it was still interesting and it then lead to the mindblowing bits.  It was never crappy.  If a movie starts lame I am not gonna enjoy it even if it gets better.  I have seen some shows that got much better in later seasons.  If the early episodes weren't at least midly entertaining I would have never reached the Betty Badass episodes.

If it sucks to start, its a complete failure, even if it gets better.  You only have one chance to make a first impression.  Like dating and stuff in a way.  If you go out with someone who looks like they spent a week sleeping in their clothes without a bath who talk to you while their hand is scratching their crotch, you are not gonna deal with them any more.  Sure, they could really be worth a million bucks, and normally take luxuriant bubble baths in a pool sized tub and are the most romantic person and best lover ever, but they started out like such a dipstick you simply aren't interested in finding out.  They failed.

[Matt]

Somewhere in all my writing you seem to have mstaken me for a journalist. I'm just a loudmouth asshole with a penchant for turning a phrase. I don't have nor do I care to have a "critical aesthetic." I'm not a journalist, nor do I wish to be. At best, I'm an editorialist, and a vulgar one at that.

I tell you my opinions of a game. You agree or disagree. That's about as deep as it goes.

If a game doesn't interest me enough to play to the mythical fun stage, I think I am qualified to come to the conclusion that I do not like the game, and that others whose opinion sometimes matches mine might agree with me.

Yep, I agree with all this. I've got no problem with writing about your experience in a game. I was just pointing out (not really to you but whomever started this offshoot about the validity of calling it a review) more or less just what you said. =)

--matt

[Matt]

If the 'hook' in a product sucks, the product sucks, plain and simple. If I don't like the trailer for a movie, they won't get my movie dollars, if I don't like the first chapter of a book I won't finish it, if the scenes before opening credits on a tv show sucks, i won't watch it. What you  have said, considering you develop 'games' or whatever, worries me to the core. It basically says 'hey fuck you gamer, we don't want to give you fun til you work for it!' WRONG ANSWER! Your response should be 'Hey, you paid us, here's your fun.' Don't 'patch it in later', don't tell us 'Hey, but the endgame is awesome.' or 'hey, you didn't play long enough.' Bring the fun or fuckoff.

You're telling me you base what movies you see off advertising (a trailer) produced by the publisher? You, my man, are Madison Avenue's wet dream. ;)

And I said none of what you're attributing to me. I just said that what Haemish wrote isn't what I would consider a proper review and that, in fact, it's nearly impossible to do proper reviews on MMORPGs due to the length of time needed to really see the product.

Personally I agree that games should be fun from just about the get-go (I'll grant that installation and putting in your credit card info doesn't have to be fun though it'd be nice!)

--matt

[Matt]

It is the most important thing an MMOG can do, whether the makers really want to admit it or not.

Casual or "time-starved" players take up less bandwidth. They typically do not use message boards, or use them much more sparingly than hardcore. They have longer subscription times, because it takes them longer to access "enough" content to sate them. They generate less customer service costs. And most importantly, THEY ARE THE MAJORITY.

That depends on the business model. In a subscription model that's mostly true (though you certainly want hardcore users who will evangelize to others about the game). In our model the answer is a little fuzzier. It's sometimes more attractive to more casual players (I don't really believe the 'casual player' has any interest in an MMORPG experience. At best MMORPGs attract moderate and hardcore players right now.) because they can spend money to get advantages that others with more time can get by spending that time, but it's also the hardcore players who spend the most.

Just going after "the majority", though, is a poor strategy. "The majority" is humankind generally but nobody aside from global brands like Coca-cola can target "everybody". It'd be a waste of my time, for instance, to target grandmothers who like to play bridge and don't yet own a computer. It'd be only slightly less wasteful to target grandmothers who like to play bridge online.

--matt

[Matt]

the newbie levels really aren't indicitive of what the later levels are like.

Yes they are, and if they aren't they should be.

-edited a 2nd time to remove catass. You make enough fun of yourself.

I don't think you thought before you posted this. Why, in the name of god, would any developer present all options available to elders players to newbies? These games are very difficult to begin with. Why confuse the newbie? The idea should be to present the game to a player in an ever-expanding circle. You start out and the range of what you can do is small. You get larger, it gets bigger. Yes, it should be fun at -all- stages, but in our games, for instance, it would make absolutely no sense to present the experience of being involved in city-state government to a newbie. It'd be meaningless and a bit inconceivable really since the governments are elected.

Plenty of other examples if you want them. The game should -not- be the same at the newbie stage as at the elder stage (why would anyone keep playing the same thing over and over in an MMORPG. If that's what you want, why not play an FPS?)  
--matt

[slog]

Going after casual gamers is moronic at best and a horrible way to do business at worst.  Casual gamers have very little loyalty and will leave your game for the next new shiney to be released.

[Snowspinner]

Casual gamers also dramatically outnumber the hardcore gamers.

[Matt]

Casual gamers also dramatically outnumber the hardcore gamers.

Yeah, but you could say the same thing about people generally: Non-gamers dramatically outnumber casual gamers. Does it make sense to try to target these people? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your venture. It's certainly not as simplistic as "Target casual gamers because they're the majority."

--matt

[Morfiend]

Also discovered I can hunt lower level mobs for more exp per hour than normal level mobs and do it with almost no down time.

This right here is the fucking problem. For us here who dont like L2, and dont like grinding. We dont want to think of games in terms of "Exp per hour". This makes me sick. What kind of fucked up shit are you people on where you enjoy camping one spot for he best "Exp Per Hour". it fucking boggles the mind.

We want fun. Camping is not fun. Grinding is not fun. Its the mindless shit they give you to keep you going and giving them money.

Ever hear the term "walking wallet" well, that should go hand in hand with "Exp per hour".

[Morfiend]

Someone on the L2 forums linked the review on this site and they're now "commenting" about it there.  Expect a huge influx of people dropping by to give us their opinion of Waterthread.

Color me amazed, after the first few, "OMG cuss words hes 12" replys, a lot of people seemed to agree. I thought it would be full of blabbering idiots and mouthbreathers, but some of them even had some rational thoughts and replys.

[Snowspinner]

Casual gamers also dramatically outnumber the hardcore gamers.

Yeah, but you could say the same thing about people generally: Non-gamers dramatically outnumber casual gamers. Does it make sense to try to target these people? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your venture. It's certainly not as simplistic as "Target casual gamers because they're the majority."

--matt

How about "Target casual gamers because they're a huge market unserved by the current offerings?"

I mean, yes it makes sense to target non-gamers. Look at Deer Hunter, or Myst, or The Sims. You think the audiences of those games were gamers?

[schild]

Logical response to what I said - shortened to take up less space

I should have explained myself but, frankly, Sloth didn't deserve it. Here's my view on this however.

If the lower levels suck, the games got nothing going for it. I want the first 10-15 levels (assuming the level cap is about 60) to be smooth, easy, and basically training levels. After that, up the playcurve, leave in the fun, but make the battles more thought provoking than (click here). City of Heroes does this (and I'll explain more when the NDA is dropped, though I'm quite sure I've broken it anyway).

Frankly, if a designer can make the beginning of the game fun, I have faith for him in the end game. I've always dreaded the mid game, and always expect it to be the worst part of the game, so I tend to be more lenient. But I'll be goddamned if I ever let myself play a game as boring as L2 in the beginning again.

Seriously, there's just no excuse anymore. The Smurfs for Colecovision had a better beginning game.

[schmoo]

Why, in the name of god, would any developer present all options available to elders players to newbies? These games are very difficult to begin with. Why confuse the newbie? The idea should be to present the game to a player in an ever-expanding circle. You start out and the range of what you can do is small. You get larger, it gets bigger. Yes, it should be fun at -all- stages, but in our games, for instance, it would make absolutely no sense to present the experience of being involved in city-state government to a newbie. It'd be meaningless and a bit inconceivable really since the governments are elected.

Plenty of other examples if you want them. The game should -not- be the same at the newbie stage as at the elder stage (why would anyone keep playing the same thing over and over in an MMORPG. If that's what you want, why not play an FPS?)  
--matt

While I agree with you in general terms,  by the time you are half-way to participating in the endgame you should be doing something more substantive and different than you were doing as a newbie.  In Lineage II you are doing almost exactly the same (boring) things at level 20 that you did at level 1.

L2 seems to have been designed to include only those elements that support the castle seige/clan versus clan endgame, and little else - no fluff, and no fun, either.

[Romp]

Casual gamers also dramatically outnumber the hardcore gamers.

Yeah, but you could say the same thing about people generally: Non-gamers dramatically outnumber casual gamers. Does it make sense to try to target these people? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your venture. It's certainly not as simplistic as "Target casual gamers because they're the majority."

--matt

How about "Target casual gamers because they're a huge market unserved by the current offerings?"

I mean, yes it makes sense to target non-gamers. Look at Deer Hunter, or Myst, or The Sims. You think the audiences of those games were gamers?

well in the case of L2 it obviously isnt targetted at casual gamers, so should it be criticised because a casual gamer cant hop in and have fun right away?

The game could be spectacularly awesome at the end game.  

Personally, levelling will never ever be fun for me so if I was reviewing MMORPGs I would just play for a day and slag off the game because its not fun right away?

For me the enjoyment in a MMORPG comes as you play over a longer period of time, interact with the community, make friendships, join a guild and then finally achieve something with that guild or friends you made in the end game.  None of which can be done in the first few hours of playing.

And I dont see anything wrong with that, there are plenty of games which are fun right out of the box, MMORPGs usually are designed for longetivity not instant gratification.

[Arthur_Parker]

Also discovered I can hunt lower level mobs for more exp per hour than normal level mobs and do it with almost no down time.

This right here is the fucking problem. For us here who dont like L2, and dont like grinding. We dont want to think of games in terms of "Exp per hour". This makes me sick. What kind of fucked up shit are you people on where you enjoy camping one spot for he best "Exp Per Hour". it fucking boggles the mind.

We want fun. Camping is not fun. Grinding is not fun. Its the mindless shit they give you to keep you going and giving them money.

Ever hear the term "walking wallet" well, that should go hand in hand with "Exp per hour".

I have already posted in this thread that it's pvp I'm interested in, that's my major focus I like it.

I also posted that I didn't play EQ for more than 2 hours, you then turn that into I "enjoy camping one spot ".

You nuts or just twisting my words to get a rise?  The grind is just a necessary part of the process in developing your character to the point where you can kill people more effectively.  The quickest way of achieving that goal is to pay a little bit of attention to how much exp you are earning doing different mobs.  I didn't invent the term exp per hour, honest, trust me I didn't.

If there is no grind there can be no character advancement, if there is no character advancement then it would make more sense to play Quake to kill people.

If your major problem with Lineage 2 is that the killing mobs bit is boring, then we will not like the same games because I always always find that bit boring.  The fact that you like killing mobs in more interesting ways with more interesting spell effects and tactics and I don't, doesn't make me right and you wrong.  It just means we disagree, why throw the "walking wallet" comment at me you pink squashy bag of mostly water?

I perfected defeating computer AI in 1981 on the Atari 2600, I find Human intelligence much more interesting to defeat.

[Romp]

heh I totally agree with you

[daveNYC]

These games are very difficult to begin with. Why confuse the newbie?

Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm tags.

[Jain Zar]

Well, I just got a chance to play the game.  Its pretty lame.  Combat is probably the most boring and primitive unfun design yet, and the tutorials leave a lot to be desired.  No tactics and its slow.  Im up to level 6, and unlike almost every other MMORPG I have played, I am tired of it in under 2 hours.  I equipped a few minor items and my generally generic avatar looks almost exactly like she did when I hopped into the world unequipped.  Even basic Everquest had more customization.  No modifiers to the control scheme, and almost every keyboard hotkey is based around an ALT key command.  Even movement doesnt have keys from what I can see.  Its just click to move.  WASD with Q for autorun please.  Oh.. and while I certainly wished I had a butt capable of wearing the thong my avatar seems to wear, I don't need to see it that much because she runs with her ass in the air and her face mostly looking at the ground.  Nobody runs like that.  Even sprinters aren't bent over like that!!

I was hoping for at least some free fun like Shadowbane gave in its massively laggy beta.  Or Earth & Beyond.  So far I haven't even got that!!  This is a sequel?  I don't even want to imagine how bad the original must be...  AC2 which seems to get a lot of hate was a heck of a lot more fun than this.  I have a feeling I won't be playing this beta very long...

[ajax34i]

Oh.. and while I certainly wished I had a butt capable of wearing the thong my avatar seems to wear, I don't need to see it that much because she runs with her ass in the air and her face mostly looking at the ground. Nobody runs like that. Even sprinters aren't bent over like that!!

Heh heh heh, I just imagined what the first L2 Convention could be like, with players donning costumes and running around like that.

[Arnold]

I don't think you thought before you posted this. Why, in the name of god, would any developer present all options available to elders players to newbies? These games are very difficult to begin with. Why confuse the newbie? The idea should be to present the game to a player in an ever-expanding circle. You start out and the range of what you can do is small. You get larger, it gets bigger.
--matt

Ok, I've got a great idea for all you developers out there.  Put in a button that says, "HI, I LEARNED HOW TO AUTO ATTACK.  DING/GRATZ PLZ!"

And you can keep that button in for the whole game.  Once someone understands the oh so complicated tactical options provided to them by the current (and most likely near future) crop of MMORPGS, they can hit their DING/GRATZ button and advance to the next level.

[Morfiend]

If there is no grind there can be no character advancement, if there is no character advancement then it would make more sense to play Quake to kill people.

Ok, first, I am ALL about the PVP endgame. What I am fighting against is the "Grind to the Fun". fuck that, if its fun, and not monotonous, then its not a grind, its fun gameplay.

I do not want to *grind* my way up to the fun part. I want fun and compelling gameplay all the way to the endgame. If you're willing to "grind" to the fun, then you should be happy with most of the games on the market, and L2 should be just fine and dandy for you. For most of us here, thats not what we want. We demand fun all the way, or those fuckers are not going to get our money and time.

Tell me, do you really have that much free time, where two to three months of mind numbing camping and exping for 4 to 6 hours a day is worth the chance that the endgame pvp will rock? Not for me, and I can bet not for a lot of people here.

seacrest out

[Matt]

Yeah, but you could say the same thing about people generally: Non-gamers dramatically outnumber casual gamers. Does it make sense to try to target these people? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your venture. It's certainly not as simplistic as "Target casual gamers because they're the majority."

--matt

How about "Target casual gamers because they're a huge market unserved by the current offerings?"

I mean, yes it makes sense to target non-gamers. Look at Deer Hunter, or Myst, or The Sims. You think the audiences of those games were gamers?

Well, again, as I said, it depends on your venture. Games like Deer Hunter and the Sims have a big appeal to the WalMart crowd. Games like Everquest do not. I don't care what your game design is: If it has elves, orcs, and dragons, your average Joe doesn't give a shit. If you can be PvP'd without consent, your average Joe is just going to leave.

So that leaves you with designing a type of game engineered for the casual gamer, alienating everyone on this board (since by definition none of you are casual. Casual gamers don't spend time ranting on sites about games.) You'd soon be complaining, "Why can't they make games that cater to niches? Sure, you won't have coca-cola, but doesn't Weinhards rootbeer survive nicely, if not at the same scale?"

I don't drink Coca-cola, I don't like McDonalds, and I don't read Harry Potter. It's well and good that some people are making products for the casual masses but as a consumer I'll take my products hardcore thank you very much.

Besides, as someone who targets a niche (text MMORPGs) within a niche (MMORPGs), I'll be the first to tell you that niches can be a Very Good Thing to target.
--matt

[Matt]

These games are very difficult to begin with. Why confuse the newbie?

Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm tags.

Not at all. Hand your average person an Everquest install and let them start playing it. They're not hard in the sense that getting good at chess is hard. They're hard in the sense that they're a foreign concept to most people. I think some of you forget how niche MMORPGs are as an entertainment medium, at least in the West.

--matt

[Snowspinner]

Yeah, but, frankly, does the hardcore playerbase need another MMOG catered to them? I mean, let's face it, the last few haven't done that well.

[Arthur_Parker]

If there is no grind there can be no character advancement, if there is no character advancement then it would make more sense to play Quake to kill people.

Ok, first, I am ALL about the PVP endgame. What I am fighting against is the "Grind to the Fun". fuck that, if its fun, and not monotonous, then its not a grind, its fun gameplay.

I do not want to *grind* my way up to the fun part. I want fun and compelling gameplay all the way to the endgame. If you're willing to "grind" to the fun, then you should be happy with most of the games on the market, and L2 should be just fine and dandy for you. For most of us here, thats not what we want. We demand fun all the way, or those fuckers are not going to get our money and time.

Those "fuckers" (btw is swearing new to you or something?), are doing quite well in Korea thank you very much.

Your first post twists my words with insults when I call you on it, your second changes tack totally to being all about pvp dude.  Yet you seem to believe you can pvp without grinding to some extent and then presume to tell me what I should enjoy playing....

Just don't quote me again fuckwit, till you make your mind up about what you actually want to argue about, that suit you ok?

[slog]

Not at all.  L2 truly an international game.  Its been through beta in Taiwan, Japan, etc.  So the only cost is porting the game to english.  Judgeing from the craziness I've seen on the Open Beta servers (they are adding a 4th due to the high amount of players) I'd guess it will have between 50,000 and 100,000 subs (numbers pulled from my ass) and the US release will have a marginal cost NCSoft about 1/10th of a regular MMORPG, so it should be very profitable.

I think more companies should learn from Lineage:  know your target market and go after it full guns.  Lineage is for the Hardcore player who likes to PvP and level with their guild.  If that's not your thing, then don't buy it.  You can't have accountable PvP when you can reroll new characters every week.

It's a niche product.

[Matt]

Yeah, but, frankly, does the hardcore playerbase need another MMOG catered to them? I mean, let's face it, the last few haven't done that well.

Does the hardcore playerbase need another MMOG? Need it in order to do what? I'd say that it needs them in order to play new MMOGs. ;) I mean, so what if a bunch of games fail? I guarantee you that as long as games like Everquest and Lineage and Red Moon and the other biggies are around, companies will keep making them.

Most games of all sort are failures, so I don't think that many failures and a few spectacular successes in MMOGs is anything but expected. Everquest and company will be succeeded by other games someday.
--matt

[Riley]

Casual gamers also dramatically outnumber the hardcore gamers.

Which is why Super Mario Bros is the top selling video game of all time.

But do you really want Super Mario Bros as an MMORPG?  Think about that carefully...

The business model for a MMORPG is very different than a single player game.  People may not like certain aspects of MMORPGs, but it is actually the business side of the games that make them like that.  I think the genre is still struggling to come up with a business model to support the casual gamers... it is being tried, but many of these more casual games are failing.

[Snowspinner]

Yeah, but, let's face it, the games appealing to the hardcore players aren't doing that well either.

[Morfiend]

Just don't quote me again fuckwit, till you make your mind up about what you actually want to argue about, that suit you ok?

Maybe you should, you know, read my post. Instead of getting hung up on the word fuck, then calling me a fuckwit.

After you read it, maybe you will get my point.

I am against the *Grind* you know, the boring, time consuming, tedium that most MMOGs today have you perform for several months untill you get to the *fun*.

I think games should be fun all the way to the endgame. I dont enjoy spending my little game time doing some shit that is boring and not fun. I refuse to play a so called "Game" that makes me do this.

Like I said, I love PVP, that is really the only reason I play these games, well that and to hang with my online friends. But it seems to me, you feel that with out having a *Grind*, then you cant have good pvp. If so, you;re an idiot, and to use your word, fuckwit, but maybe lackwit would be better.

Who says a mmog has to suck to have fun PVP? right now most do, and that why myself and many other posters here are not playing any game at the moment.

Maybe you just dont know what "Grind" means. It means the camping, the tenium, the horrible long playing sessions. Games dont *have* to have this. Thats what Im talking about.

How about I requote you, just cause you love it so.

If there is no grind there can be no character advancement, if there is no character advancement then it would make more sense to play Quake to kill people.

How about, bullshit. The advancement does not have to be a grind, it could be fun, quest based play sessions that lead to advancement with no grind. Thats what I am hoping against hope that WoW gives, and have heard from a few people it comes close. We will see.

With this method of thinking, I can see that L2 is perfect for you.

[Margalis]

Seriously, there's just no excuse anymore. The Smurfs for Colecovision had a better beginning game.

Yes, leaping over tufts of grass and fences was quite exciting.

The Smurfs was all about the bats...Smurfs newb!
---

Anyway, I just want to interject something somewhat off-topic. Wasn't the conventional wisdom around here 2 months ago that COH was going to totally suck?

Funny how opinions can change when people actually, you know, *play* the thing.

I always hate reading boards like this and hearing "omg it has no villains, this is the worst game ever." Or "omg it has experience, forget it." That's not "teh hate" that "teh retardation." The devil is in the details on most things, and games especially so.

[schild]

Heh. You're a little late to the game, and it seems you haven't read a lot of the threads, but thanks for your comments.

[Arthur_Parker]

How about, bullshit. The advancement does not have to be a grind, it could be fun, quest based play sessions that lead to advancement with no grind. Thats what I am hoping against hope that WoW gives, and have heard from a few people it comes close. We will see.

With this method of thinking, I can see that L2 is perfect for you.

AC2 had quest advancement look how well that turned out.  WOW will not be fun for me because it does not have pvp as a priority, you talk about what is fun for you and talk down to me because it is different from what I find fun.  You say you are ALL about the pvp one minute and then look forward to WOW.  Hey, whatever floats your boat I guess, was it an Amiga you had or an Atari ST?

Your point was "I want games to be fun" I believe, hold the frontpage!

I should maybe just have let this pass but I tend to respond to terminally stupid comments directed towards me.

Sorry for pointlessly derailing the thread further.  Morphiend buddy, pal, if you wish to continue this debate please pm me so I continue to be entertained.  I have not been mauled by a dead sheep in a long time and am quite enjoying this.

[slog]

Yeah, but, let's face it, the games appealing to the hardcore players aren't doing that well either.

Last I checked Lineage2 had more than 20 servers runnng worldwide. Seems to me the games that are not doing are the ones that try to appeal to the Casual and the Hardcore.  Earth and Beyond Offline leveling anyone?

I think we all agree that DAOC and EQ could be considered successfull as well.  My guildmates from the WoW beta tell me that the Leveling was made much more difficult in the latest version.

This website isn't about MMORPGS anymore I take it.  Instead, it's about former MMORPG players that talk about about how much they don't like MMORPGs anymore and do Television reviews instead.

[Arthur_Parker]

This website isn't about MMORPGS anymore I take it.  Instead, it's about former MMORPG players that talk about about how much they don't like MMORPGs anymore and do Television reviews instead.

Ouch!