Blizzards New MMO

[Kageru]

Skill based and level based are the same thing just with a different level of focus. In a skill based game you need to develop every specific skill which leads to retarded gameplay like jumping all over the map to raise "stamina" or shooting trees. In a level based game it is assumed that the character is doing all sorts of heroic training (swinging swords at target dummies, improving fitness) in the background and you only need to track the overall growth in power.

I still like the old rolemaster systems where level got you skill points and class determined how many it took to raise each skill. You could be a wizard and learn swordplay if you wanted to but you'd be spending points that would have probably achieved more learning new spells. The important thing is the class didn't force you to do anything, but it gave you strengths. The fallout "focus" skills system was similar.

The question of whether classes have exclusive strengths is another question. In a game with a strong group focus you do want strengths and weaknesses that can best be balanced by finding a group. In a solo oriented game everyone needs to be an all-rounder or be able to balance their limitations with consumables or pets. Being into co-operative gameplay I prefer the first, though I still want some degree of soloable progression. I'd also add buff and debuff (with CC even being a specialised variant?) as core roles, but that may be because I'm playing CoX at the moment which probably has one of the most complex systems for both of these.

[Draegan]

Diku is basically character development based on numbers.  First come levels in terms of advancement then comes gear.  What differs from game to game is what you're using that stat aquisition for.

By that definition, UO was a DIKU.  Character development was based on numbers, your advancement was your GM skills.  It's a computer game, it all comes down to numbers in the end unless it moves to the boundary boxes and hit detection of FPS games.*

Folks say DIKU they usually mean distinct, predefined classes and levels that provide an increase in power beyond whatever 'skill system' that may or may not be attached.  It may or may not have an level-cap mechanic to advance your character and loot may or may not be part of character advancement.  i.e. WoW vs CoH, both of which are DIKU but are different games.

There have been classless DikuMUDs.

[Lantyssa]

Y'all are trying to be too specific.  While there are certain concepts (classes, levels, yadda) we think of when refering to a DIKU-like game, it's more the soul-crushing grind, importance on min-maxing with 0.05% tolerances on stats, and systems which encourage doing inane things instead of having fun.

The Holy Trinity is a later development mainly influenced by EQ and subsequent games.  Classes and Levels do not a DIKU make.  They do, however, make it very easy to design a game into a DIKU-like shell.

[tmp]

The question of whether classes have exclusive strengths is another question. In a game with a strong group focus you do want strengths and weaknesses that can best be balanced by finding a group.

You don't actually need (and it's questionable if you 'want') drastic strengths and weaknesses in individual classes just because your game has focus on grouping. That's not needed to make people group -- you could have everyone be equally good all-rounder, and they'll still have to group to get through content that's either strong or numerous enough to require that, simply because there's limits to how much damage single person can dish out, withstand, and how much they can heal (be it themself or somene else)

For that matter, having everyone comparably versatile probably makes the grouping easier as you remove the old "x-1 people sit around spamming group channel for a healer" trap. Much easier to get one person extra when that person can be anyone rather than certain specialist.

[tmp]

it's more the soul-crushing grind, importance on min-maxing with 0.05% tolerances on stats, and systems which encourage doing inane things instead of having fun.

To large degree that's not the games themselves but rather the human factor and its preference to optimize path to the next pellet. Even if that does involve inane things, which are then loudly whined about.

[Ingmar]

Y'all are trying to be too specific.  While there are certain concepts (classes, levels, yadda) we think of when refering to a DIKU-like game, it's more the soul-crushing grind, importance on min-maxing with 0.05% tolerances on stats, and systems which encourage doing inane things instead of having fun.

The Holy Trinity is a later development mainly influenced by EQ and subsequent games.  Classes and Levels do not a DIKU make.  They do, however, make it very easy to design a game into a DIKU-like shell.

But the things on your list of what you say makes a DIKU are pretty much entirely subjective. What's fun? When does a grind become a grind? Is min-maxing ACTUALLY important or do the players make it so themselves? What you're saying is DIKU is code for "games I don't like". Which I'll agree, that is what most people seem to use it for.

[gryeyes]

Holy trinity was part and parcel of Dikumuds tho. I associate Diku with a characters capability being determined by class. Advancement of character primarily through combat to attain a greater level. Gaining levels to gain new abilities and access to new gear. Based around a staple DnD motif. Each class having a defined sphere of use that creates a synergy with the other classes. Using this synergy to defeat content impossible otherwise. My mud experience is based solely on DikuMuds so i cant compare to other forms. But these were the fundamentals of every diku mud Ive played.

Im sure there are heavily modified Diku muds that have none of these characteristics. Does anyone know of an active DikuMud that is relatively unmodified?

[Kageru]

You don't actually need (and it's questionable if you 'want') drastic strengths and weaknesses in individual classes just because your game has focus on grouping. That's not needed to make people group -- you could have everyone be equally good all-rounder, and they'll still have to group to get through content that's either strong or numerous enough to require that, simply because there's limits to how much damage single person can dish out, withstand, and how much they can heal (be it themself or somene else)

I disagree because in that case your group dynamics are very dull. It becomes more "soloing in the same area" than interesting grouping. And given each character is expected to have roughly equivalent strengths and vulnerabilities there's very limited ways in which you can tailor encounter variety and challenge other than adding more mobs. Of course the downside of designing classes is that it sucks when you cannot find (or even worse your class is not desired) in groups. This has actually been partly solved in WoW through having multiple builds with very different playstyles per character and the ability to freely switch between them. My shaman can now freely switch between healing (very group focused) and kicking ass (fine solo and group if healing is not needed).

I think there have been enough games demonstrating that if solo and grouping are equally rewarding the convenience of soloing will tend to make it the dominant playstyle.

[tmp]

I disagree because in that case your group dynamics are very dull.

As opposed to "the tank tanks, the ddealers deal damage and the healers keep everyone up"? I'd say it might be actually the opposite, since with everyone being able (and required) to fill for any role it becomes more about ability of the group to adapt on the fly and perform whatever function is most needed at given time... rather than everyone being chained to one specific trick throughout their whole career.

[Goreschach]

I disagree because in that case your group dynamics are very dull.

As opposed to "the tank tanks, the ddealers deal damage and the healers keep everyone up"? I'd say it might be actually the opposite, since with everyone being able (and required) to fill for any role it becomes more about ability of the group to adapt on the fly and perform whatever function is most needed at given time... rather than everyone being chained to one specific trick throughout their whole career.

At least that's how it works in imaginationland, until you realize that when you give them the ability to perform any role, they invariably just form one large, homogeneous lump of destruction.

[Merusk]

Y'all are trying to be too specific.  While there are certain concepts (classes, levels, yadda) we think of when refering to a DIKU-like game, it's more the soul-crushing grind, importance on min-maxing with 0.05% tolerances on stats, and systems which encourage doing inane things instead of having fun.

The Holy Trinity is a later development mainly influenced by EQ and subsequent games.  Classes and Levels do not a DIKU make.  They do, however, make it very easy to design a game into a DIKU-like shell.

But the things on your list of what you say makes a DIKU are pretty much entirely subjective. What's fun? When does a grind become a grind? Is min-maxing ACTUALLY important or do the players make it so themselves? What you're saying is DIKU is code for "games I don't like". Which I'll agree, that is what most people seem to use it for.

No doubt.  One man's soul-crushing grind is another's "What, level cap already?"

Diku is basically character development based on numbers.  First come levels in terms of advancement then comes gear.  What differs from game to game is what you're using that stat aquisition for.

By that definition, UO was a DIKU.  Character development was based on numbers, your advancement was your GM skills.  It's a computer game, it all comes down to numbers in the end unless it moves to the boundary boxes and hit detection of FPS games.*

Folks say DIKU they usually mean distinct, predefined classes and levels that provide an increase in power beyond whatever 'skill system' that may or may not be attached.  It may or may not have an level-cap mechanic to advance your character and loot may or may not be part of character advancement.  i.e. WoW vs CoH, both of which are DIKU but are different games.

There have been classless DikuMUDs.

We're not talking codebases, here. We're talking game style.  GODWARS was DIKU code based and classless but I wouldn't call it a DIKU any more than I would call UO and SWG one.

[tmp]

At least that's how it works in imaginationland, until you realize that when you give them the ability to perform any role, they invariably just form one large, homogeneous lump of destruction.

Yes, but how exactly is that any less interesting than everyone always doing one thing rather than a few? I mean, at least this way everyone gets to do more than just heal, just dps or just tank... i'd say quite a few developers perhaps agree, considering how many of the fights are made in such a way they forcefully break the 'tank and spank' approach, through one gimmick or another.

[AutomaticZen]

I think there have been enough games demonstrating that if solo and grouping are equally rewarding the convenience of soloing will tend to make it the dominant playstyle.

I find this is mostly true, and why they tend to shove "the good stuff" into group instances and raiding, in order to push people towards that content.

[Kageru]

If every character is going to cover every (or most) roles then there are limits as to how deep the roles can be without control overload. That and because the environments won't be that challenging you don't really need a larger variety of role powers. And of course if people can freely pick their powers they're all going to take the "best" powers.

When classes exemplify a role and are selected as a balanced package of abilities they can (assuming good game design) be made interesting in how they perform that role and in how that gives them strengths and weaknesses. After all there are four healing classes in WoW and all of them have different mechanics, a full range of abilities to keep the player engaged and particular strengths and weaknesses that mean you gain from having a variety. Heck, one class even has three different healing mechanisms depending on spec.

I think there have been enough games demonstrating that if solo and grouping are equally rewarding the convenience of soloing will tend to make it the dominant playstyle.

I find this is mostly true, and why they tend to shove "the good stuff" into group instances and raiding, in order to push people towards that content.

I think it is also because raid content was regarded as a relatively efficient use of developer time. It's content that the players are reasonably happy to fail at, eventually beat, and then farm for many months. Though I think wow's dailies and CoH's mission architect have shown how the same repetition can be packaged for a soloists.

[DLRiley]

Y'all are trying to be too specific.  While there are certain concepts (classes, levels, yadda) we think of when refering to a DIKU-like game, it's more the soul-crushing grind, importance on min-maxing with 0.05% tolerances on stats, and systems which encourage doing inane things instead of having fun.

The Holy Trinity is a later development mainly influenced by EQ and subsequent games.  Classes and Levels do not a DIKU make.  They do, however, make it very easy to design a game into a DIKU-like shell.

But the things on your list of what you say makes a DIKU are pretty much entirely subjective. What's fun? When does a grind become a grind? Is min-maxing ACTUALLY important or do the players make it so themselves? What you're saying is DIKU is code for "games I don't like". Which I'll agree, that is what most people seem to use it for.

No doubt.  One man's soul-crushing grind is another's "What, level cap already?"

I wouldn't make a game for "What, level cap already?" kids.

[Lantyssa]

But the things on your list of what you say makes a DIKU are pretty much entirely subjective. What's fun? When does a grind become a grind? Is min-maxing ACTUALLY important or do the players make it so themselves? What you're saying is DIKU is code for "games I don't like". Which I'll agree, that is what most people seem to use it for.

To an extent it is and we do.  Just because there are degrees doesn't mean it isn't a valid categorization.  Lineage >> EQ1> WoW ~ EQ2 ~ LotR > Guild Wars > Free Realms.

Maybe most people's tolerance is well within WoW's advancement curve, but that doesn't mean it isn't what we classify as DIKU.  It's the derogatory use of the word that people might be objecting to.  (Maybe my use of "soul-crushing grind" was a bit loaded.  "Repetative activities" would have been a better word choice if my meaning is going to be tempered by my language.)  I like WoW and I love many things about Guild Wars, but they still qualify.

Holy trinity was part and parcel of Dikumuds tho. I associate Diku with a characters capability being determined by class. Advancement of character primarily through combat to attain a greater level. Gaining levels to gain new abilities and access to new gear. Based around a staple DnD motif. Each class having a defined sphere of use that creates a synergy with the other classes. Using this synergy to defeat content impossible otherwise. My mud experience is based solely on DikuMuds so i cant compare to other forms. But these were the fundamentals of every diku mud Ive played.

DIKUmuds often had classes based around D&D but not the Holy Trinity.  You didn't need one of each to succeed.  They might have brought useful abilities you couldn't get with the others, but weren't required and could do just fine with whomever was available.  The Holy Trinity requires a mixture or you are at a severe disadvantage.  It's a post-MUD development.

[Venkman]

The Holy Trinity was a requirement introduced through event design, not a part of the underlying system. It's become a popular way to compel interaction. But that's at the same time task list based quest systems also became popular for people who prefer to solo or want something to do between dungeon crawls too.

As to "this is DIKU" or not, I think it's high time we get rid of that term. It's long since lost any real sense of relevance. Most people using it never played any of the DIKU family of MUDs, myself included. The reality is that we're all really just talking about how much a game or game system feels like EQ1 or easymode EQ1 in WoW.

And I say this because every single time the term is used, it becomes someone else's turn to ask what it really means, resulting in two or more pages of non-answers. It doesn't mean anything. Just say EQ.

[Murgos]

The Holy Trinity was a requirement introduced through event design, not a part of the underlying system.

How is, "One class does damage, one class takes damage and one class heals damage" not an 'underlying system'?  It seems to me that that particular decision dictated the event design, not the other way around.

[Lantyssa]

Because they used to all be able to do so to a large extent.  And this was mitigated even more on the multitude of MUDs which allowed multi-classing.  They became more specialized in later games.

While typing that I thought more games need to have multi-classing, then of course I thought of Guild Wars again, and more recently Runes of Magic.  Did it really need to take us ten years to bring the idea back?

As to "this is DIKU" or not, I think it's high time we get rid of that term. It's long since lost any real sense of relevance. Most people using it never played any of the DIKU family of MUDs, myself included. The reality is that we're all really just talking about how much a game or game system feels like EQ1 or easymode EQ1 in WoW.

I coded and played exclusively on a DIKU codebase for a decade.  Can I still use it?

[Merusk]

Because they used to all be able to do so to a large extent.  And this was mitigated even more on the multitude of MUDs which allowed multi-classing.  They became more specialized in later games.

While typing that I thought more games need to have multi-classing, then of course I thought of Guild Wars again, and more recently Runes of Magic.  Did it really need to take us ten years to bring the idea back?

As to "this is DIKU" or not, I think it's high time we get rid of that term. It's long since lost any real sense of relevance. Most people using it never played any of the DIKU family of MUDs, myself included. The reality is that we're all really just talking about how much a game or game system feels like EQ1 or easymode EQ1 in WoW.

I coded and played exclusively on a DIKU codebase for a decade.  Can I still use it?

Yeah, you weren't forced to group in MUDs.  It was one of the more  moments in EQ when I realized my Warrior was going to get its ass kicked from here to there every time I wanted to do something on my own.  It was the complete opposite of my MUD experiences with ANY class.  Not to mention the painful, painful length of time to get back energy/ mana.  Hell, even WOW takes longer to regen health and mana than most of the MUDs I played on, but the player vs mob power curve is right there.

Multi-classing shouldn't have taken this long to come in, but it has and even then it's in a very limited number of games and via a very limited system.  You can wait another 10-15 years for a remort system, if it will ever show up at all.

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

[Sheepherder]

While typing that I thought more games need to have multi-classing, then of course I thought of Guild Wars again, and more recently Runes of Magic.  Did it really need to take us ten years to bring the idea back?

WoW and it's dual-spec?  Probably a bad example, because they may you pay a pile of gold for that, and so it's almost completely cut off from people who don't have access to dailies.

[Draegan]

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

There is no EQ vs. DIKU.  EQ is DIKU.  EQ was basically a 3D representation of Sojourn (Duris/Toril) MUD.  It's the mud McQuaid played.  I played it for 4 years or so in the mid 90s.  

Sojourn is the grand daddy basically.  It had the Tank/Healer/Damage paradigm.  You couldn't kill anything outside level 15 or so without a group.  It had everything you have today in modern MMOGs but all in text.  The only tenants that the genre has moved from is the harsh grind and the forced grouping.  But dungeons, levels, stats, class roles, raids etc are still there.  I remember raiding the Fire/Earth/Air Planes 15 years ago.

[Draegan]

WoW and it's dual-spec?  Probably a bad example, because they may you pay a pile of gold for that, and so it's almost completely cut off from people who don't have access to dailies.

Who the heck doesn't have access to dailies?

[tmp]

If every character is going to cover every (or most) roles then there are limits as to how deep the roles can be without control overload.

Since at the moment the depth of roles is usually inflated in artificial manner, often by giving people pretty much the same abilities multiple times under different names just to create impression of "character development", this isn't much of a problem. None of the basic roles is really so complicated if you strip the fluff and trim things just to abilites which are actually different in function and/or regularly used.

That and because the environments won't be that challenging

Exactly how do you figure this? I mean, what kinds of challenges from current environments hinge on specialized roles and could not work without that? Was under impression current challenges generally boil down to positional dance, gear checks (must have this much resistance/hp/whatever) dps checks (must do this much damage before timer runs out) and class stacking (must bring x of y). All these can well remain without the class roles, aside maybe from the class stacking which becomes "x of you must be doing y" instead. Most of these are fondly referred to by players as "cockblocks" rather than "challenges", btw...

And of course if people can freely pick their powers they're all going to take the "best" powers.

Being able to do more than one thing does not need to automatically mean ability to pick and choose completely free. It can be for example instead an ability to pick specific mechanics paths for the individual aspects of the 'holy trinity' your character combines. Or you can look at 'talent trees' as another way to allow player access to wide range of abilites but without allowing them to fully cherry-pick.

When classes exemplify a role and are selected as a balanced package of abilities they can (assuming good game design) be made interesting in how they perform that role and in how that gives them strengths and weaknesses. After all there are four healing classes in WoW and all of them have different mechanics, a full range of abilities to keep the player engaged and particular strengths and weaknesses that mean you gain from having a variety. Heck, one class even has three different healing mechanisms depending on spec.

Yes, but being able to do something other than heal does not mean the player has to be locked into single way to do the healing, either. I.e. the individual roles can still be made to work in varied and interesting ways. These mechanics are just no longer locked exclusively to some particular and arbitrary class.

[tmp]

While typing that I thought more games need to have multi-classing, then of course I thought of Guild Wars again, and more recently Runes of Magic.  Did it really need to take us ten years to bring the idea back?

Final Fantasy Online had its job system a few years before Guild Wars, too. Though i think theirs comes from another source (FF III?)

And of course there's SWG, too 

[Mrbloodworth]

Can i say this is why i love LOTRO classes? Screw a bunch of "you only have one role ever".

[Draegan]

I dislike LOTRO classes.  Though maybe it's because of the combat.  If you're going pure fantasy DIKU, I think Vanguard actually created the best class structure, believe it or not.

[Venkman]

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

Yea, you're probably right. You gonna blame me for extolling the virtues of DAoC's relevant crafting too? 

In all seriousness, I've realized somewhere along the way that we're all as a species predisposed to repeating history. So whether you know it or not really just separates those who know we're repeating it versus those who do not. 

[Lantyssa]

WoW and it's dual-spec?  Probably a bad example, because they may you pay a pile of gold for that, and so it's almost completely cut off from people who don't have access to dailies.

Final Fantasy Online had its job system a few years before Guild Wars, too. Though i think theirs comes from another source (FF III?)

And of course there's SWG, too 

I don't mean being able to switch your specialty of Druid at the click of a button, which is really just a convenience from spend gold and redo it all by hand.  Nor FFXI or Guild Wars ability to alter classes easily (which I do think is wonderful).

I mean true multi-classing.  Mage/Fighter.  Druid/Thief.  Fighter/Cleric.  Shadowmage/Antipaladin.  Monk/Paladin.  Most Anything/Most Anything Else.

[Ingmar]

But... GW pretty much IS true multiclassing. The only thing you can't do is spec into the 'primary' skill line for 2 different classes.

[Fordel]

GW does have true multi-classing though.


-fake edit- Damn you Ingmar

[Mrbloodworth]

I dislike LOTRO classes.  Though maybe it's because of the combat.  If you're going pure fantasy DIKU, I think Vanguard actually created the best class structure, believe it or not.

When I played beta, Vanguard had basically the same dam set up as the trinity. Just, with funny names. So, I'm not sure how you got that. Then again, I did not continue to retail, nor have I played since.

LOTRO on the other had, every class is a hybrid, combine that with class/non-class consumables (like, traps/lures/snares/bow chants/oils/explosive pouches/ tons more..) game play per class gets rather broad as far as options. Rune keepers somewhat exemplify this, although its two options are rather distilled (nuke, or heal) So it may not be the best example. Captains and lore masters... Lore masters have at least 3 possible (roles), captains also, have 3. In fact, Minstrel/captain/Rune keeper can all be considered healers... Even the lore master has some ability to heal others, and Rez (Pipe weed FTW?).

I have not seen this flexibility in any other MMO.

[Lantyssa]

Guild Wars does, and it's the best modern example I can think of.  However there is an unchanging primary class which determines the character's special functions and a secondary class.  (tmp was talking about the ability to switch the secondary at will once unlocked.  That is what I was responding to.)

When I say true multi-classing I mean the character gets the full benefits of both.  It's not Mage with some Fighter abilities or a Fighter with some Mage spells, it's the full power of Mage + the full power of Fighter.

[Merusk]

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

Yea, you're probably right. You gonna blame me for extolling the virtues of DAoC's relevant crafting too? 

Unless you've seen the light about how retarded putting controls like that into the crafting community's hands is, yes. 

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

There is no EQ vs. DIKU.  EQ is DIKU.  EQ was basically a 3D representation of Sojourn (Duris/Toril) MUD.  It's the mud McQuaid played.  I played it for 4 years or so in the mid 90s.  

Sojourn is the grand daddy basically.  It had the Tank/Healer/Damage paradigm.  You couldn't kill anything outside level 15 or so without a group.  It had everything you have today in modern MMOGs but all in text.  The only tenants that the genre has moved from is the harsh grind and the forced grouping.  But dungeons, levels, stats, class roles, raids etc are still there.  I remember raiding the Fire/Earth/Air Planes 15 years ago.

No shit. The conversation I'm talking about happened about 6 or 7 years ago. 

[Righ]

Funny thing about the EQ vs DIKU terminology thing, I seem to recall you being one of the guys who was all over using the term in the first place, Darniaq.  Something about knowing game history or what-not.

Yea, you're probably right. You gonna blame me for extolling the virtues of DAoC's relevant crafting too? 

I'm still going to blame Raph. He was the nincompoop who described graphical online games as 'Diku-like' in his disdain for anything non-sandbox. You just spread his unwieldy meme. 

Holy trinity was part and parcel of Dikumuds tho. I associate Diku with a characters capability being determined by class. Advancement of character primarily through combat to attain a greater level. Gaining levels to gain new abilities and access to new gear. Based around a staple DnD motif. Each class having a defined sphere of use that creates a synergy with the other classes. Using this synergy to defeat content impossible otherwise. My mud experience is based solely on DikuMuds so i cant compare to other forms. But these were the fundamentals of every diku mud Ive played.

Im sure there are heavily modified Diku muds that have none of these characteristics. Does anyone know of an active DikuMud that is relatively unmodified?

No, there aren't any. All existing DikuMUDs are based on offshoots of the original code. The original code is no longer publicly available, and the current implementation of the main DikuMUD code, 'VME' is only available for free for non-profit use if you're building a MUD of three or less players. That's okay, its not one of the better engines available today if you're planning to build something new. What it does have is a lot of novel game code if you just feel like dicking around with something already developed.

I'll save you some trouble digging through your source code backups though - the original DikuMUD code supported classes, but there was no 'holy trinity' because there was no 'tanking'. In fact, I can't think of a group encounter in the original mudlib, but I do have every public (and then some) MUD and mudlib from that period, so I will try and check that for you.