Blizzards New MMO

[Lantyssa]

It's not dead.  I might wish it was, but it's not.  Even if the games I want are made, there will still be a market for DIKU-style games because not everyone's taste is the same and not everyone is at the point of needing the same things from their games.  Hopefully there will at least be some further iterations to make them better though.

[Draegan]

Diku is not dead, nor is it a losing model.  You people are just cranky.

[Ghambit]

Diku is not dead, nor is it a losing model.  You people are just cranky.

THIS.  (unless you're being sarcastic)

Any learned PnPer knows that digital gaming has yet to even scratch the primordial surface of what DIKU has to offer.  Matter of fact, I'll say right here and now that vid. gamers can currently only DREAM of the kind of gaming that's possible in these "analog systems."  Basically, what you have now in vid.gaming is just the chicken-scraps of pen&paper left-over from the pen-protector geeks of the early 80's; those guys who loved their D&D and wanted it represented online.

Well, the gaming world isnt that simple and many a gaming historian has realized that those pen-protector geeks didnt really succeed in doing what they intended, largely because the technology wasnt there.  You hear a LOT of designers holding onto those original ideals simply because they believe they can do it right with current tech.  BUT, they do it wrong... 'cept for Blizzard so far and they're still only really working with scraps - they just made gravy from it.

[Righ]

Any learned PnPer knows that digital gaming has yet to even scratch the primordial surface of what DIKU has to offer.

I think you mean to say that DikuMUDs barely scratched the surface of what role-playing games have to offer. Most modern MMORPGs offer more sophisticated combat models than most DikuMUDs did/do.

[DLRiley]

You'd figure that not learning from the geekiest form of gaming known to man is a good thing... I'm still waiting for the day when mmorpg's actually play like the rpg's i grew up playing during the snes era let alone feel like the rpg's during the ps2 era.   

[Tuncal]

You'd figure that not learning from the geekiest form of gaming known to man is a good thing... I'm still waiting for the day when mmorpg's actually play like the rpg's i grew up playing during the snes era let alone feel like the rpg's during the ps2 era.   

I don't think anyone can easily bridge the huge gap between MMO and single player RPGs.

Also, can anyone give a clear definition of diku? I'm thinking it should be somewhat more specific than "fantasy hack'n'slash with character advancement", but at the same time it transcended the original dikumud.

[Draegan]

Diku is basically character development based on numbers.  First come levels in terms of advancement then comes gear.  What differs from game to game is what you're using that stat aquisition for.

[shiznitz]

Mana is not a limiting factor in most games. It was there to prevent constantly available alpha strikes. That concern has been controlled with timers now. If a game had no mana and just timers, it would play the same if balanced properly. Instead of mana regen, there would just be timer "regen". EQ2 has both, for example.

I kind of like the way 4th ed, D&D went. Every class starts with:

1) 2 powers that can machine gun forever. The damage does scale a little with levels.
2) 1 encounter power. In MMO terms, call it a 3-5 minute recharge. This power does 2-3x the at will dmg with a buff/debuff atached.
3) 1 daily power. Slap a 30-60 minute re-use on this in MMO terms. This will either do 3-4x the at will dmg and comes with a better buff/debuff.

You get more Encounter and Daily powers as you level.

From a game playing perspective, if you can save your Dailies as you work towards the boss, then the boss fight becomes a lot easier. If the group has to spend some Dailies to get there alive, then the fight becomes harder.

Now, that is not a lot of powers but D&D can deal with that because the battles have a strong tactical aspect to them that would be hard to implement in a real-time MMO combat system.  It could still be diku'ed easily enough, not that it should be.

[Draegan]

The mana system in WOW, for example, is used to limit the time you can spend in an encounter.  So basically you can't spam heal endlessly since you have a finite recourse pool.  You have to play more strategically, or whatever you want to call it.  It add situational awareness sometimes.  (I have to admit I havn't healed in WOW in 3 years so it could be different now?)

There are other systems that work too.  I don't think any particular system is better than the other.  Just one has been used more often.

And EQ2's combat system should not be used as an example for anything.

[SnakeCharmer]

It's not strategic.

It's time cockblock to keep you from advancing too fast -and- provide a money sink for pots.

Edit:  The whole I'm shooting fireballs from my fingertips and whacking on giant fucking rabid weasels for too long, therefore I must rest mechanic is just fucking stupid.

[Mrbloodworth]

Could have sworn i had seen Gandalf, Merlin, and Harry Potter become winded after a long battle.

[Draegan]

It's not strategic.

It's time cockblock to keep you from advancing too fast -and- provide a money sink for pots.

Edit:  The whole I'm shooting fireballs from my fingertips and whacking on giant fucking rabid weasels for too long, therefore I must rest mechanic is just fucking stupid.

Actually no.  In some fights I remember having to choose between spells due to mana usage not counting different ranks because of mana consumption.  It's probably different now though.

You can rail against it all you want but there is a strategic metric to it though.  You have a finite amount of resources and your regeneration rate varies.  You have to keep that in mind so you're not constantly casting the best spell over and over again.

Also mana pools give you another stat point to differentiate yourself from others.  The more mana the longer you can last in battle thus making your character better.  Typical Diku model.

[Vash]

Mana is losing strategic value now that enrage timers on bosses are becoming the norm to prevent people from cheesing encounters(stacking healers/regen) and boring a boss to death.

With that out of the way it's simply a money/time sink and a way to force downtime on classes who use it as a resouce.  It tries to provide some pseudo-balance in downtime between classes who use it and those who don't.  Classes who don't use it are mele and are presumed to have downtime due to needing to eat/bandage after a few fights.  Since ranged/mana using classes can often kill mobs without taking any damage or quickly heal up in a spell or two if they do, designers felt that making them rely on a finite resource was the only way to balance the downtime.

I think many people would now agree that it is a poor design on many levels.  First, because it really hasn't done a very good job of balancing downtime, which was it's intended purpose.  Second, because it makes trying to balance classes (in PvP and PvE, but espcially PvP) even harder than if they all used a similar resource system.  Third, because designing significant downtime, espcially forced downtime into your game is boring and a crappy mechanism for trying to keep players from going through content too fast.

[Fordel]

Actually no.  In some fights I remember having to choose between spells due to mana usage not counting different ranks because of mana consumption.  It's probably different now though.

You can rail against it all you want but there is a strategic metric to it though.  You have a finite amount of resources and your regeneration rate varies.  You have to keep that in mind so you're not constantly casting the best spell over and over again.

Also mana pools give you another stat point to differentiate yourself from others.  The more mana the longer you can last in battle thus making your character better.  Typical Diku model.

All of those 'strategic metrics' can be given with a infinite resource pool as well with the added bonus of never going dry and yanking yer Johnson while you wait.

It's an old and busted mechanic, it needs to die. It exists in WoW "because", nothing more.

[Lantyssa]

Could have sworn i had seen Gandalf, Merlin, and Harry Potter become winded after a long battle.

So were Boromir, Lancelot, and some fighter guy from the HP universe.

[Ingmar]

You'd figure that not learning from the geekiest form of gaming known to man is a good thing... I'm still waiting for the day when mmorpg's actually play like the rpg's i grew up playing during the snes era let alone feel like the rpg's during the ps2 era.   

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

[Ingmar]

Also, can anyone give a clear definition of diku? I'm thinking it should be somewhat more specific than "fantasy hack'n'slash with character advancement", but at the same time it transcended the original dikumud.

Diku usually seems to be used as shorthand for "classes and levels".

[naum]

All I know is that if Schilling reveals his secret project and it's another "Humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs fight over a medieval world for fifteen bucks a month!" diku, anyone who predicts anything other than utter flop is getting a faceful of my dick. Maybe the future is Runescape or Maple Story or something else I haven't heard of yet, but companies are not going to keep flushing money down the toilet on shit like Warhammer and Conan.

/amen

So bored with elves and wizards, and medieval worlds…

…still waiting for a polished Wild West MMO motif, with gunslingers, wagon trains, indian spirits, etc.…

…or something further back on the historical scale — Greek/Egyptian/Roman mythology, primitive man (evolve your species and slaughter the biological "competition"!), reniassance/age of enlightenment, modern day RPG, etc.…

[Ingmar]

Fantasy India. It could be made so awesome, and I can't think of anyone that's *ever* done it. I was hoping Guild Wars would get around to it eventually since they did a pretty nice job with their Asian and African/Middle East themed campaigns, but no.

[Tarami]

You'd figure that not learning from the geekiest form of gaming known to man is a good thing... I'm still waiting for the day when mmorpg's actually play like the rpg's i grew up playing during the snes era let alone feel like the rpg's during the ps2 era.  

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

Funny you should say that, Curt Schiling's company, Multi-Man Publishing, publishes ASL nowadays.

DUN-DUN-DUNNNN!

[Ingmar]

You'd figure that not learning from the geekiest form of gaming known to man is a good thing... I'm still waiting for the day when mmorpg's actually play like the rpg's i grew up playing during the snes era let alone feel like the rpg's during the ps2 era.  

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

Funny you should say that, Curt Schiling's company, Multi-Man Publishing, publishes ASL nowadays.

DUN-DUN-DUNNNN!

Oh god. Incoming 750 page manual.

I can't wait to see character creation broken down with sub-sub-sub-headings and clauses.

3.1.1.2a - Selection of hairstyles (male)

[Sjofn]

Also, can anyone give a clear definition of diku? I'm thinking it should be somewhat more specific than "fantasy hack'n'slash with character advancement", but at the same time it transcended the original dikumud.

Diku usually seems to be used as shorthand for "classes and levels".

Oh noes, our LP MUD was a diku. 

[Draegan]

Actually no.  In some fights I remember having to choose between spells due to mana usage not counting different ranks because of mana consumption.  It's probably different now though.

You can rail against it all you want but there is a strategic metric to it though.  You have a finite amount of resources and your regeneration rate varies.  You have to keep that in mind so you're not constantly casting the best spell over and over again.

Also mana pools give you another stat point to differentiate yourself from others.  The more mana the longer you can last in battle thus making your character better.  Typical Diku model.

All of those 'strategic metrics' can be given with a infinite resource pool as well with the added bonus of never going dry and yanking yer Johnson while you wait.

It's an old and busted mechanic, it needs to die. It exists in WoW "because", nothing more.

Both systems work, I'm not poo-poo'ing either. 

That being said mana is old, obviously, but it isn't busted.  It's just another part of resource management. 

If you get rid of that maybe you're playing the cooldown game?  Or maybe health is and old mechanic in yours eyes?  You just don't like the system, which is fine, but sayings it's old and busted is just stupid.

[Bzalthek]

Fantasy India. It could be made so awesome, and I can't think of anyone that's *ever* done it. I was hoping Guild Wars would get around to it eventually since they did a pretty nice job with their Asian and African/Middle East themed campaigns, but no.

37 customer support technician LFG

[tmp]

…still waiting for a polished Wild West MMO motif, with gunslingers, wagon trains, indian spirits, etc.…

Will be probably launched right after Slave Trader MMO launches their Underground Railroad expansion.

[Merusk]

Diku is basically character development based on numbers.  First come levels in terms of advancement then comes gear.  What differs from game to game is what you're using that stat aquisition for.

By that definition, UO was a DIKU.  Character development was based on numbers, your advancement was your GM skills.  It's a computer game, it all comes down to numbers in the end unless it moves to the boundary boxes and hit detection of FPS games.*

Folks say DIKU they usually mean distinct, predefined classes and levels that provide an increase in power beyond whatever 'skill system' that may or may not be attached.  It may or may not have an level-cap mechanic to advance your character and loot may or may not be part of character advancement.  i.e. WoW vs CoH, both of which are DIKU but are different games.


*Tangent:   In that case, prepare for lots of nerd rage as one of two things must happen.  1) The games return to the early days of FPS where a shot in the toe is as lethal as a shot in the head because it all has to be handled server-side or be prone to ridiculous levels of hacking  2) Put up with ridiculous levels of hacking because you've put important bits client side and pretend that it's not happening as you try to catch every last hacker.  Good luck.


Tangent2:  Schilling's game is going to be DIKU elves orcs and goblins.  It's what he enjoys, it's what Salvatore writes. They might not be called elves orcs and goblins, but I wouldn't put money against it.

[Nebu]

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

Laugh all you want... this would be my robot jesus.  I played Squad Leader to death as a teen.

[Tarami]

To fuel the diku definition discussion (what hasn't been said already...), I think an important aspect is that the classes need to have symbiotic rock/paper/scissors-type abilities. One class provides rocks, another paper. Only together they have enough of a toolbox of abilities to beat boss encounters.

[Redgiant]

To fuel the diku definition discussion (what hasn't been said already...), I think an important aspect is that the classes need to have symbiotic rock/paper/scissors-type abilities. One class provides rocks, another paper.

Tank, heal, dps, cc. Any others?

All symbiotic measurements come down to a class' contribution in these four areas, compared against the relative need for the four against a particular encounter. Which also brings in class competition when they overlap in one or more of these areas.

Only together they have enough of a toolbox of abilities to beat boss encounters.

To the extent that a given MMO wants you to have to group. EQ1 wanted you to group all the time. WoW only wants you to group doing instances/raids.

[Hindenburg]

Tank, heal, dps, cc. Any others?

You put one too many.

[Ingmar]

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

Laugh all you want... this would be my robot jesus.  I played Squad Leader to death as a teen.

http://www.vasl.org/

[SnakeCharmer]

To fuel the diku definition discussion (what hasn't been said already...), I think an important aspect is that the classes need to have symbiotic rock/paper/scissors-type abilities. One class provides rocks, another paper. Only together they have enough of a toolbox of abilities to beat boss encounters.

The fuck it does.  It's been done, how many times now?

It's a fucking stupid, archaic system that's only used because it's safe - and even then they fuck it up nearly every time.  It's fucking boring as fuck.  It's for developers (and players) that lack imagination.

[Righ]

I blame Raph.

[Tarami]

I feel I should have quoted someone. My previous post was just arguing a central concept for what's needed for a game that people would classify as a diku. I'm not arguing whether it's a good or bad concept.

I will even say it's the most distinctive trait of dikus, because only they have it implemented as core gameplay. Many games have levels and character advancement (and Elves, and Orcs), of which some of them have ideas similar to that of the "holy trinity" but only because building teams of that nature makes sense, not because the gameplay forcefully dictates it.

All has been said before but, what do we, if not repeat ourselves.

[Tannhauser]

Someone made an Advanced Squad Leader MMO while I wasn't looking?

Laugh all you want... this would be my robot jesus.  I played Squad Leader to death as a teen.

I'm a former ASL junkie, used to hit a tournament once a year.  Best board game EVAR.