Resubbed - damn it's well done

[Paelos]

Goblins should get +10% to all vendor sales as their racial. That would be sweet.

[Ingmar]

I remember reading an explanation about the goblins' Horde-centric involvement in the earlier wars by pointing out it was only one of the seven trade princes of Undermine that had his personal forces throw their lot in with the Horde.  Can't recall exactly where that came from though.

Although that doesn't explain them blowing themselves up, which seems massively out of character for goblins.  Of course, dwarves were doing the same thing too with their dwarven demolition teams.  I think the most logical assumption is that they didn't intentionally blow themselves up and they got out of the way as much as they could, but the game simply wasn't going to be bothered to show the unarmed remnants of a sapper/demo team that had expended their explosives.

The goblins in Storm Peaks blow themselves up. The powder kegs are strapped right on to them, it is definitely not a drop-it-and-run setup.

[WindupAtheist]

What about the gnomes?

I can't help giving them a /pat whenever one of them helps me out.

[Kageru]

I highly doubt the Blood Elves would have had anything to do with the Forsaken.

The Blood Elves were saved from being over-run by the horde remnants by Forsaken intervention. That's why they have a military command at Tranquillen.

Although the actual armies seem to be absent and knocking over the local scourge can be done by a handful of level 20 novices.

Thrall lost to Garrosh as an indication of how shaman versus melee PvP would look in the expansion.

[Fordel]

Whose to say that some Forsaken aren't actually dead elves?

[Koyasha]

The Plague itself is very specific to humans only, or at least, the original Plague of the Third War was.  It would kill many things, twist a lot of life, but only humans would be slain and raised automatically by the plague as the undead.  Other races had to be specifically handled in one manner or another.

Among the Forsaken, we know there are Banshees, and it's reasonably likely there's a few other elves or other races that were reanimated, but those are undoubtedly a rather small minority.  So yeah, some Forsaken are dead elves, but very few indeed.

[Chimpy]

The bitch in charge is a dead elf!

[Delmania]

The bitch in charge is a dead elf!

Sylvanas is more like a death knight than a banshee*.  She was killed and put indo a state of undeath by Arthas, but she kept her consciousness and will.  Arthas viewed it as punishment.  She couldn't resist doing what he told her to do, but she was aware of everything that had happened and what she was doing.  That backfired on Arthas when his grip on her weakened and she was able to break free of his control.

Yes in WC when she was killed, she became a banshee, but later on, se somehow got her body back.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The bitch in charge is a dead elf!

Sylvanas is more like a death knight than a banshee*.  She was killed and put indo a state of undeath by Arthas, but she kept her consciousness and will.  Arthas viewed it as punishment.  She couldn't resist doing what he told her to do, but she was aware of everything that had happened and what she was doing.  That backfired on Arthas when his grip on her weakened and she was able to break free of his control.

Yes in WC when she was killed, she became a banshee, but later on, se somehow got her body back.

Well, she found A body....poor nelf sylvy.

[Delmania]

The bitch in charge is a dead elf!

Sylvanas is more like a death knight than a banshee*.  She was killed and put indo a state of undeath by Arthas, but she kept her consciousness and will.  Arthas viewed it as punishment.  She couldn't resist doing what he told her to do, but she was aware of everything that had happened and what she was doing.  That backfired on Arthas when his grip on her weakened and she was able to break free of his control.

Yes in WC when she was killed, she became a banshee, but later on, se somehow got her body back.

Well, she found A body....poor nelf sylvy.

She got a helf body in WotLK.

[WindupAtheist]

Sylvanas is more like a death knight ...

We know the bigoted evil Alliance would never accept one of those. 

[Kail]

The Plague itself is very specific to humans only, or at least, the original Plague of the Third War was.  It would kill many things, twist a lot of life, but only humans would be slain and raised automatically by the plague as the undead.  Other races had to be specifically handled in one manner or another.

Where's that from?  I was under the impression that it was a fairly broad agent, since the Scourge had used it to take over Northrend (deploying it against Nerubians, Trolls, et cetera).

[Lakov_Sanite]

Sylvanas is more like a death knight ...

We know the bigoted evil Alliance would never accept one of those. 

DK's lorewise seem more like conscripted mercenaries than members of either side, sort of like goblins in that regard.

[Sjofn]

We all had to get notes from Tirion, too. And King Cockmonger totally threatened to kill me, but wanted to see wtf I was doing just all walking into SW like I owned the place. Also, I was threatened with lynching and shit.

Honestly, I wish they had done more with that. "Look, look, Tirion wrote a letter of recommendation!" shouldn't be enough to go from GET A ROPE to "So we're cool, now, right?"

[Lantyssa]

There should still be sneering and the occasional thrown apple.  Greatly reduce the frequency to get it from becoming Billy stole my dolly levels of annoying, but remind the player their kind isn't completely welcome.

[Sjofn]

And have the freqency go down as my rep changes. Also, I should've started at neutral instead of friendly. I know King Chucklehead yelled, "Bitches, be cool!" but that still shouldn't make them be all OMG BE MY FRIEND OKAY.

[Fordel]

Hey, your totally underestimating how awesome Tirion is! If Tirion says your cool, your cool. 

[Koyasha]

The Plague itself is very specific to humans only, or at least, the original Plague of the Third War was.  It would kill many things, twist a lot of life, but only humans would be slain and raised automatically by the plague as the undead.  Other races had to be specifically handled in one manner or another.

Where's that from?  I was under the impression that it was a fairly broad agent, since the Scourge had used it to take over Northrend (deploying it against Nerubians, Trolls, et cetera).

Can't remember the source precisely, it may have been one of the RPG books or some other source.  I don't think I'm wrong, but I could be.  Originally he conjured the plague through direct power against the human settlements in Northrend, and possibly against some of the ice trolls, but as I remember reading it, only humans automatically come back as undead.  He also used his powerful mind control against anyone nearby, an aspect that's been played down and basically ignored in WoW (perhaps it was tied to the frozen throne itself, as it was supposed to be the crystal that expanded his psychic power, so by taking Arthas' body he lost the massive psionic ability).  The plague will kill pretty much anything, but then you have to spend direct effort raising them.  The nerubians were immune to both the plague and the Lich King's mind control, and had to be killed by direct means.  They were then raised through direct power into undeath.

[Delmania]

Can't remember the source precisely, it may have been one of the RPG books or some other source.  I don't think I'm wrong, but I could be.  Originally he conjured the plague through direct power against the human settlements in Northrend, and possibly against some of the ice trolls, but as I remember reading it, only humans automatically come back as undead.  He also used his powerful mind control against anyone nearby, an aspect that's been played down and basically ignored in WoW (perhaps it was tied to the frozen throne itself, as it was supposed to be the crystal that expanded his psychic power, so by taking Arthas' body he lost the massive psionic ability).  The plague will kill pretty much anything, but then you have to spend direct effort raising them.  The nerubians were immune to both the plague and the Lich King's mind control, and had to be killed by direct means.  They were then raised through direct power into undeath.

The Frozen Throne didn't augment his power.  It contained him because he had become just as powerful, if not more, that Kil'Jaedan.  Once he fused with Arthas, he basically became a god.

[Koyasha]

Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand-fold.

While it's not specifically stated, the phrasing of the sentence has clear implications that the "ice" had something to do with the expansion of his psionic power, while simultaneously limiting him in other ways.  It's also reasonably logical; crystal is often associated with the increase of certain types of magical or psionic power in particular, and it came from the Nether itself, which is of course steeped in magical power.  Furthermore, if he retained the same level of psionic power as previously, he would reasonably be expected to be capable of controlling the vast majority of the forces of both Alliance and Horde that have landed in Northrend through it, or at least to be able to shift the allegiance of large units at any given moment, thus making it impossible to mount a coordinated war effort of any sort.

[Delmania]

Actually, I think you're misreading that statement.  I've never read that to say his consciousness was expanded due to the crystal, more that his consciousness was being expanded due to the fact that he was becoming the Lich King.  Also, while the Lich King is probably the single most powerful entity on the face of Azeroth, his ability to directly control entities is limited to the undead and the creatures with weak will.  Most of the life forms he enslaved in Northrend are fairiy primitive creatures.   If he could just enslave people, there would have no reason to kill the Nerubians in the first place, he could have just taken them over.    It's been shown that any creature with significant will can break free of his grasp, that was demonstrated in WC3 when Sylvanas betrayed Arthas. 

[Simond]

We all had to get notes from Tirion, too. And King Cockmonger totally threatened to kill me, but wanted to see wtf I was doing just all walking into SW like I owned the place. Also, I was threatened with lynching and shit.

Honestly, I wish they had done more with that. "Look, look, Tirion wrote a letter of recommendation!" shouldn't be enough to go from GET A ROPE to "So we're cool, now, right?"

That's another good example of the Alliance being the bad guys. Alliance version: "I should kill you where you stand". Horde version: "A death knight? Hmm...interesting"

[Delmania]

That's another good example of the Alliance being the bad guys. Alliance version: "I should kill you where you stand". Horde version: "A death knight? Hmm...interesting"

When the heir to the throne kills his father, unleashes a undead and demonic horde on your people, and the proceeds to become one of the most powerful entities on that planet bent on wiping you out... I think you'd be a *teensy* bit suspicious if someone who looks like his minion shows up on your door.

[Simond]

Except Stormwind spent most all of the third war hiding behind their stolen walls and hoping that someone else would stop the Scourge. 

[Fordel]

You need to do more nerd lore'ing.

[WindupAtheist]

We've gone from "The Alliance are evil mean bigots who turned on their old friends when they became undead!" to "Well the Alliance are evil mean bigots and I bet they would have turned on them if they weren't betrayed first!" all the way down to "Well the Alliance briefly talked kinda mean to a legion of undead death knights shortly before accepting them into their ranks!" so I'm not sure what else is left to nerd-debate.

[Fordel]

Jaina, hot or not?

[Hindenburg]

Not. /topic.

Was Thrall faking that fight? He did have a full mana bar when it was interrupted.... 

[DraconianOne]

Not. /topic.

Was Thrall faking that fight? He did have a full mana bar when it was interrupted.... 

Totally. There was a point to be made in a "hate leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to getting really pissed off and punching walls" kinda way.  Plus Saurfang would have waded in with a "Demon blood is bad, mmmkay!" lesson of his own and he would have totally bitchslapped wotshisname given half a chance.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Not. /topic.

Was Thrall faking that fight? He did have a full mana bar when it was interrupted.... 

Totally. There was a point to be made in a "hate leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to getting really pissed off and punching walls" kinda way.  Plus Saurfang would have waded in with a "Demon blood is bad, mmmkay!" lesson of his own and he would have totally bitchslapped wotshisname given half a chance.

Dude, saurfang is going to whoop some ass in icecrown, mark my words you don't mess with a redneck orc like him.

[WindupAtheist]

Totally. There was a point to be made in a "hate leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to getting really pissed off and punching walls" kinda way.  Plus Saurfang would have waded in with a "Demon blood is bad, mmmkay!" lesson of his own and he would have totally bitchslapped wotshisname given half a chance.

Not fighting properly leads to losing power, losing power leads to the hotheaded new boss running the Horde off a cliff. What was Thrall going to do if the Scourge hadn't interrupted the duel?

[Hindenburg]

NS and smack faces. Duh 

[Ingmar]

Totally. There was a point to be made in a "hate leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to getting really pissed off and punching walls" kinda way.  Plus Saurfang would have waded in with a "Demon blood is bad, mmmkay!" lesson of his own and he would have totally bitchslapped wotshisname given half a chance.

Not fighting properly leads to losing power, losing power leads to the hotheaded new boss running the Horde off a cliff. What was Thrall going to do if the Scourge hadn't interrupted the duel?

IMO they're setting Garrosh up to pick up Frostmourne after the Arthas kill and go bad.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Thrall only fought hellscream to test the boys conviction, it wasn't a battle to see who was right. Thrall could have punked him easily but he held back(duh) what I got out of the fight that thrall was hesitant to go to northrend since the undead were more or less not an orc issue and doing so would tax rescources heavily. In comes along hellscream saying he can lead it and thrall pretty much says "ok boy, prove it" and they duke it out but it was hardly a challenge of power, just a test of strength to lead.

[Merusk]

After the whole quest line about Arthas' heart was unsatisfactorily resolved, I began to think that we'll see little "Matthias Lehner" again in Icecrown and Arthas won't wind-up dead. Time will tell.