Resubbed - damn it's well done

[Fordel]

Technically, the ruling class would be the Naga and their Queen Aszhara.

Just Sayin. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Night elves are just mutant trolls anyways.....

[Fordel]

Night elves are just mutant trolls anyways.....

They've never actually confirmed/denied that officially, I'm hoping they do eventually.

[Nevermore]

Night elves are just mutant evolved trolls anyways.....

[Lakov_Sanite]

I wouldn't consider bouncing as an evolution.

[WindupAtheist]

I have no further need to debate you silly Horde monkies and your nonsense about ten thousand year old elf politics. You are clearly the villains. Sorry. Thank the Light that we finally have a sensible king that sees through your laughable facade of peacefulness.

 

[Vash]

Evolution doesn't really explain gaining immortality by growing a really large tree either.....unless it wasn't really a tree but an herb, and constant exposure just made them think they were immortal. 

[Delmania]

This is the part where I point out that one of the first things Sylvanas did as a free-willed undead was to enter into a false agreement with an Alliance commander, then betray and murder him so that she could have the Undercity as the capital of her own little empire. But hey, that's okay because Garithos was fat and a jerk, right?

The Forsaken like to spin this myth of persecution at the hands of the Alliance, but the very first contact between the undead Sylvanas and someone in a position of authority within the Alliance was basically cooperative, until Sylvanas decided to kill him. Garithos was an asshole, the cooperation was limited and temporary, and really he didn't have much choice anyway, but in the end he gave a hell of a lot more good faith than he got in return.

The "poor victimized Forsaken" act is just more Horde propaganda bullshit. Sylvanas didn't try to reunite with her surviving people and get cruelly rejected, she murdered an Alliance commander to seize a former Alliance capital, declared herself Queen, made a fucking demon lord her second in command, and started cranking out her own version of the Scourge plague.

Gee, how could anyone mistake THAT for something besides good intentions?

Garithos was more than a jerk.  Given the chance, he would have left all non human members of the alliance perish. Or did you forget he ordered all of his troops pull out when the undead attacked and left Kael fend for himself?  He's the very reason Kael joined with Illdian and ultimately the Burning Legion.  As for Sylvanas, seriously, what did you expect her to do?  Garithos wasn't the shining model of trust, and more than likely, he would have betrayed any peace deal and wiped out the Forsaken the first chance he got.  Garithos was evil, plain and simple.  Given that, what else could Sylvanas have done?  She wasn't perfect, but neither was the Alliance commander in charge.  Had the alliance been took of its blinders and seen the bigger picture, things wouldn't be like they are now.  As it stands, the Alliance is solely responsible for the was with the new Horde because attitudes like that of King Douchebag prevent anyone from doing anything remotely positive.  At least Jaina had some fucking common sense.

[Nevermore]

Evolution doesn't really explain gaining immortality by growing a really large tree either.....unless it wasn't really a tree but an herb, and constant exposure just made them think they were immortal. 

They evolved from Trolls to Kaldorei long before the existence of Nordrassil.  It was exposure to the first Well of Eternity that raised them up from the more primitive Trolls.  While it's true that Nordrassil was the source of Night Elf immortality, the giant tree was able to bestow that gift because of the blessing it received from Nozdormu.  That's the entire reason why the oh so foolish Fandral Staghelm planted Teldrassil: to try to preserve the Night Elves (read: his own) immortality.  But while Teldrassil is physically even mightier than Nordrassil, it didn't receive the great bronze dragon's blessing so the Night Elves are still mortal.  As an aside, not all Night Elves subscribe to Fandral's world view, as there is a brewing schism between his followers and those of the more reasonable Tyrande Whisperwind.

[Sjofn]

Tyrande is an idiot. I'd throw in with Archdruid Staghelm, personally.

[Lantyssa]

What about the Tauren?

They bring the burgers.

Actually I have no problem with them, however they do assist their Horde bretheren when I'm peacefully passing through to spread a bit of wild herb around.  Do they want the Barren's healed or not?

Tyrande is an idiot. I'd throw in with Archdruid Staghelm, personally.

Staghelm is a giant ass that needs repeated kicking.  Tyrande is a blind fool.  Not much of a choice, but since Staghelm needs a good kicking, I wont be siding with him.

[Nevermore]

You want to know how big of a jackass Fandral is?  The reason the bronze dragons wouldn't bless Teldrassil is because the future archdruid personally managed to offend Anachronos 1,000 years ago at the end of the War of the Shifting Sands, when he had begged the dragons to help the Night Elves push the Qiraji back into Silithus and entrap them behind the Scarab Wall.  Anachronos handed Fandral the Scepter of the Shifting Sands should mortals ever need to pass through the magical barrier, and here's the druid's reaction:

Fandral looked down, his face twisting in contempt. "I want nothing to do with Silithus, the Qiraji and least of all, any damned dragons!" With that Fandral swung the enchanted object into the magical gates — where it splintered in a shower of fragments — and walked away.

Yeah, I bet that didn't come back to bite you on the ass, eh Staghelm?

[WindupAtheist]

Garithos wasn't the shining model of trust, and more than likely, he would have betrayed any peace deal and wiped out the Forsaken the first chance he got.  Garithos was evil, plain and simple.  Given that, what else could Sylvanas have done?

Refrain from having him murdered in cold blood. Leave Lordaeron and try to find the remaining high elves.
Murder him anyway. Then run away and try to find the remaining high elves.
Detain him. Remain in Lordaeron until making peaceful contact with a more reasonable officer of the Alliance.

Pretty much ANYTHING besides, again, slaughtering the only Alliance commander around in cold blood, seizing the former capital of Lordaeron and declaring herself Queen, making a fucking member of the Burning Legion her second, and starting work on her own version of the Scourge plague. What else could she possibly do to say "Fuck you!" to everyone more emphatically?

It's not like there's some tragic story of how she tried to reconcile with the Alliance, or the remnants of high elf society, or whatever, only to be cruelly rejected. She got released from the Lich King's control and it was pretty much "Fuck all y'all, I'm gonna be QUEEN OF THE UNDEAD! MUAHAHAHAHA!" from the word go.

But here we go with the Horde-apologist nonsense where executing an Alliance official because you would rather not live up to the bargain you made with him can be brushed off with "Well he was a bad person, and might have betrayed us if we hadn't done it to him first!" Meanwhile the Alliance is supposed to put aside even the most outrageous provocation in order to reach out in peace to a bunch of undead who've done absolutely nothing to indicate that they're even interested.

By the way, I want you to consider the logical ramifications of "It was okay to break a deal and murder the guy, because he didn't seem very trustworthy!" when it comes to how trustworthy YOU seem and how people deal with YOU in the future.

[Ingmar]

Staghelm is nearly my favorite NPC in the whole game 

[Lantyssa]

Staghelm is nearly my favorite NPC in the whole game 

You and Sjofn know he hates beer, yes?  He wants Brewfest banned.  He can't be trusted.

[Sjofn]

What about the Tauren?

They bring the burgers.

Actually I have no problem with them, however they do assist their Horde bretheren when I'm peacefully passing through to spread a bit of wild herb around.  Do they want the Barren's healed or not?

Tyrande is an idiot. I'd throw in with Archdruid Staghelm, personally.

Staghelm is a giant ass that needs repeated kicking.  Tyrande is a blind fool.  Not much of a choice, but since Staghelm needs a good kicking, I wont be siding with him.

See, you can kick and perhaps he would eventually have the light go on and do the right thing (being an ass the entire time I'm sure, but that's totally part of his charm!). Tyrande being an idiot is not as easily fixed. I'd rather side with a crabbypants that has a bad temper because his son was killed horribly fighting bugs than some moron that thinks "I'm sure thousands of years of being imprisoned has mellowed Illidan out!"


EDIT: ALSO, the tauren kill the shit out of dwarves whenever they have a chance for digging on their sacred ground. That is almost always covering titan stuff. Titans who MADE earthen who turned INTO dwarves. I think the ground is sacred for dwarves too. 

[Delmania]

Refrain from having him murdered in cold blood. Leave Lordaeron and try to find the remaining high elves.


Murder him anyway. Then run away and try to find the remaining high elves.

I highly doubt the Blood Elves would have had anything to do with the Forsaken.

Detain him. Remain in Lordaeron until making peaceful contact with a more reasonable officer of the Alliance.

Right, any other Alliance commander would have done the same thing.  The only one who might have had any sense was Jaina.

Pretty much ANYTHING besides, again, slaughtering the only Alliance commander around in cold blood, seizing the former capital of Lordaeron and declaring herself Queen, making a fucking member of the Burning Legion her second, and starting work on her own version of the Scourge plague. What else could she possibly do to say "Fuck you!" to everyone more emphatically?

It's not like there's some tragic story of how she tried to reconcile with the Alliance, or the remnants of high elf society, or whatever, only to be cruelly rejected. She got released from the Lich King's control and it was pretty much "Fuck all y'all, I'm gonna be QUEEN OF THE UNDEAD! MUAHAHAHAHA!" from the word go.

But here we go with the Horde-apologist nonsense where executing an Alliance official because you would rather not live up to the bargain you made with him can be brushed off with "Well he was a bad person, and might have betrayed us if we hadn't done it to him first!" Meanwhile the Alliance is supposed to put aside even the most outrageous provocation in order to reach out in peace to a bunch of undead who've done absolutely nothing to indicate that they're even interested.

Do you remember what Garithos's class was?  "Dark Knight"  Given his dealings with the Blood Elves and his contempt for all non-humans,  I'd say the idea he'd betray and kill Sylvanas was a given.  He'd have let them get only so far away before he ordered his tropps to slaughter them.

By the way, I want you to consider the logical ramifications of "It was okay to break a deal and murder the guy, because he didn't seem very trustworthy!" when it comes to how trustworthy YOU seem and how people deal with YOU in the future.

Easy now, I thought this argument was in character, from the perspective of a Forsaken apologist.  It should not reflect on how I would actually react in the given situation.

[Ingmar]

Staghelm just doesn't have time for you bugging him about stupid shit, he's a BIG PICTURE kind of guy.

[WindupAtheist]

I highly doubt the Blood Elves would have had anything to do with the Forsaken.

Except for when they joined the same faction and installed a teleporter between their two capitals, right? Anyway there are still high elves. Not many, but they are not extinct.

Right, any other Alliance commander would have done the same thing.  The only one who might have had any sense was Jaina.

So you're convinced that the majority of the Alliance was guaranteed to be hostile, to the point that there was no chance of finding any Alliance official outside of your precious Horde-loving Jaina willing to given them a chance. Thus murdering them in cold blood was acceptable, and peaceful coexistence likely impossible. But it's the Alliance that wouldn't give peace a chance. Right. I would once more like to point out the huge number of ex-Scourge, in the form of death knights, peacefully sitting around in Stormwind at this very moment. Woops, there goes the Forsaken myth of Alliance intolerance.

Do you remember what Garithos's class was?  "Dark Knight"  Given his dealings with the Blood Elves and his contempt for all non-humans,  I'd say the idea he'd betray and kill Sylvanas was a given.  He'd have let them get only so far away before he ordered his tropps to slaughter them.

We can only speculate, given that Sylvanas was happy to murder him on the spot, but who says he even had sufficient force to do any of that? She could have done anything with him, since he was separated from his men. Hell, she could have simply gone ahead and killed him, but made up a story about how the Legion got him, and then attempted to make peace. That would be duplicitious, but would show at least some interest in reconciliation. Instead it was "We will find our own path in this world, Dreadlord, and slaughter anyone who stands in our way!" She had dubbed herself "forsaken" before having any contact with anyone in the Alliance besides someone whom SHE betrayed and killed.

The Forsaken made absolutely zero effort to ever indicate that they had the slightest interest in cooperation with the Alliance. None. Ever. At all. (Though they did plenty to seem separatist and hostile.) The idea that they were rejected by the cruel Alliance that forsook them is an utter and complete fabrication. They never even tried. The undead who did eventually try were, in fact, accepted back into the Alliance.

Easy now, I thought this argument was in character, from the perspective of a Forsaken apologist.  It should not reflect on how I would actually react in the given situation.

I am in character. Prithee, what be a "character class" Forsaken scum?

[Simond]

The Forsaken made absolutely zero effort to ever indicate that they had the slightest interest in cooperation with the Alliance. None. Ever. At all. (Though they did plenty to seem separatist and hostile.) The idea that they were rejected by the cruel Alliance that forsook them is an utter and complete fabrication. They never even tried. The undead who did eventually try were, in fact, accepted back into the Alliance.

Well, bearing in mind that the 'Alliance' actually sat around and did sweet Fanny Adams while two of its founder members got ploughed under by the Scourge is a pretty good sign that the the 'Alliance' didn't give a fuck about them back when they were still alive. As an army of undead rebels?

Yeah.

'Alliance' is in quotes for two reasons:
1) The actual Alliance died when Stormwind decided it'd rather sit on its hands and watch the kingdoms that had previously saved their sorry arses die slowly than help.
2) The original Alliance was "The Alliance of Lordaeron" and was built around the core of the Kingdom of Lordaeron (and their fellow northern kingdoms), the elves of Quel'thalas and the dwarves of Ironforge. In case you hadn't noticed, two of those listed are now part of the Horde. In fact, the new Alliance is basically one-seventh of the Human kingdoms originally involved, the dwarves, and a bunch of mutant trolls and demons.

[Hindenburg]

What about the gnomes?

[WindupAtheist]

Well, bearing in mind that the 'Alliance' actually sat around and did sweet Fanny Adams while two of its founder members got ploughed under by the Scourge is a pretty good sign that the the 'Alliance' didn't give a fuck about them back when they were still alive. As an army of undead rebels?

Quel'thalas had withdrawn from the Alliance after the Second War in a snit over the burning of some of their forests by the Horde, and without regard for the fact that Lordaeron had sacrificed hundreds of it's own men in their defense. But naturally, it's the fault of the Alliance that the high elves shrugged off all of their allies, ended up in another war, and got crushed. Right. Is there any stupid thing you people have ever done that isn't somehow our fault?

By the way, have you ever looked at a map? Even the high elves didn't know that Arthas was coming for them until he was practically on their doorstep. How exactly are armies from Stormwind and Ironforge supposed to deploy to the northern continent, cross the plaguelands, and intercept the Scourge in time to accomplish anything, even if they began moving the instant the high elves realized they were under attack? As for Lordaeron, don't make me laugh. They went from apparent victory thanks to their heroic prince to utter ruin at the hands of their traitor prince before anyone knew what the hell was happening.

So basically we've gone from "The mean Alliance wouldn't accept us peacefully!" all the way to "Well we didn't actually try to make any sort of peace, but that's okay because they're all mean, as can clearly be seen by them not being able to save us from our own fuck ups." Pathetic.

This sort of sad-assed bellyaching is what the Horde is reduced to?

[Xanthippe]

What about the gnomes?

I've always wondered this. 

Also, how do the goblins fit in?

[Merusk]

What about the gnomes?

I've always wondered this. 

Also, how do the goblins fit in?

Gnomes are mutant, genocidal freaks. We'd all be better off if they were removed from the face of the planet. But first things first, use them as fodder against the bigger problem, The Scourge.

Goblins are mercs out for gold. They have no allegiance to anyone. No, this doesn't explain why they blew themselves to kingdom come willingly for the Horde for 2 wars before deciding to play both ends against the middle.

[Lantyssa]

The Horde was willing to pay at the time, probably by bothering to inquire.  It's good business to have two equally powerful forces duking it out, so think of it as an investment in the future as well.

Now?  Things are good.  Let the gold flow.

[Sjofn]

Gnomes aren't genocidal unless "wiping yourselves out by accident" counts.

[Koyasha]

I remember reading an explanation about the goblins' Horde-centric involvement in the earlier wars by pointing out it was only one of the seven trade princes of Undermine that had his personal forces throw their lot in with the Horde.  Can't recall exactly where that came from though.

Although that doesn't explain them blowing themselves up, which seems massively out of character for goblins.  Of course, dwarves were doing the same thing too with their dwarven demolition teams.  I think the most logical assumption is that they didn't intentionally blow themselves up and they got out of the way as much as they could, but the game simply wasn't going to be bothered to show the unarmed remnants of a sapper/demo team that had expended their explosives.

[Hindenburg]

Gnomes aren't genocidal unless "wiping yourselves out by accident" counts.

Never met a gnome that didn't try to kill me. Ever.
Gnomes are the only alliance class that can only kill, never heal.

[Sjofn]

Ha, good point about the gnomes not being able to heal at all, ever.

I wish there were gnome shamans, for no good reason. I just think it would be funny. <3

[Paelos]

Ha, good point about the gnomes not being able to heal at all, ever.

I wish there were gnome shamans, for no good reason. I just think it would be funny. <3

Can you imagine the comedy of 2 man gnome shaman teams playing hide and seek with their totems in arena?

[Chimpy]

Goblins as a playable race would be worth my 15 bucks a month.

At this point, nothing in the game is, so I cancelled.

[Rendakor]

Goblins as a playable race would be worth my 15 bucks a month.

This was pretty much the reason I tried out WAR. Having to play as a huntard or healbitch wasn't fun though. A goblin rogue would be so awesome.

[Sjofn]

Goblins as a playable race would be worth my 15 bucks a month.

At this point, nothing in the game is, so I cancelled.

I want to play a goblin girl so bad. :(

[Lantyssa]

I thought I was alone in wanting to play a goblin.

With my horde characters I always joked I was putting Grizzlin's kids through school.  I used her as my exclusive auctioneer in Ogrimar (until they moved her to Everlook) because goblins are just that awesome.

"Well hello there!"

[Nevermore]

Goblins are awesome.  I hope the next expansion makes them a race that can be picked on either side, what with them being neutral and all.  PC goblins can just be considered the ones that allied with one of the two sides.