Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[schild]

Endgame of WoW: kill bosses and hope to get very exact phat loot as to compete with the joneses.
Endgame of Diablo II: kill bosses to get phat loot that may or may not be cool and hope for the best for your character.

If WoW were more like Diablo 2, I'd play it. And by more, I mean Diablo online.

[Fordel]

Does LotRO still have that bizarre lag/delay in the combat system? That alone drove me away from the game.

[squirrel]

Endgame of WoW: kill bosses and hope to get very exact phat loot as to compete with the joneses.
Endgame of Diablo II: kill bosses to get phat loot that may or may not be cool and hope for the best for your character.

If WoW were more like Diablo 2, I'd play it. And by more, I mean Diablo online.

I suspect your (and thousands millions of others) patience will be rewarded.

[Fordel]

I eagerly await F13 turning into a Diablo Online fan site when that day comes.

[Modern Angel]

Stuff

Shut up.

[Triforcer]

A game where you grind levels for loot.  Yes.  It makes perfect sense that everyone here loves that...UNLESS YOU CONSIDER EVERYTHING EVERYONE HAS EVER SAID IN THE MMO FORUM, EVER.  

[tmp]

Does LotRO still have that bizarre lag/delay in the combat system? That alone drove me away from the game.

Yes and sort of no. The delay thing if i understand it comes from game throwing in auto-attacks between the user-selected special moves, and its unwilingness to interrupt any ongoing animation for better visuals, so the length of auto-attack animation creates the lag before your queued special action executes. On the other hand though, the auto-attacks can be disabled in the options which could probably lead to the much snappier feel, similar to what WoW offers. But since that option is buried deep in game preferences panel and disabled by default it is mostly moot point.

[Ratman_tf]

Endgame of WoW: kill bosses and hope to get very exact phat loot as to compete with the joneses.
Endgame of Diablo II: kill bosses to get phat loot that may or may not be cool and hope for the best for your character.

If WoW were more like Diablo 2, I'd play it. And by more, I mean Diablo online.

Man, playing Diablo online would rock! Maybe Blizzard will put online multiplayer into D3!

[Lantyssa]

Before deploying WoW, Blizzard had developed a huge following with Starcraft, Warcraft, and the Diablo series, plus a reputation for just making fun games in general.  Those, combined with the fact that WoW's leveling is very accessible to anyone, managed to sends the game's playerbase into the stratosphere.  Hell, if they remove the cockblocks on gear and make it so you don't need to do the Arena for res gear, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

This got them a good head-start.  It took being a good game for a wider audience to catch on and hit a critical mass that non-gamers (prior to WoW at least) make up a significant portion of the player base.

Any game launching now has more of an advantage than WoW started with due to the number of people who now know about MMOs and are looking for something else to try.  They still have to be good games in their own right if they are going to obtain that critical mass to do the same.  They can do it, but not with the half-assed shoddy releases we've seen in the last few years.

First mover is a huge advantage in environments subject to network effects.  MySpace is in every way a shitty experience.  The interface is shitty, the performance is shitty, the design is shitty, everything is terrible.  But it dominated social networking because it as the first one to hit it big.  It took a site as good as Facebook to knock it off, and Facebook is about 800 times better than Myspace.  Similarly, Everquest was a brutal, dumb game, but it got big first and it took a game 10 times as good in WoW to knock it off.  To knock WoW off you can't be a little better.  You have to be 10 times as good.  And good luck with that.

Being first is a huge benefit, but quality still trumps it.  Otherwise UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, or any number of others would be the game we're talking about.  For a while it was EQ.  When someone makes an objectively better game, as best that can be measured, it will make WoW's numbers look tiny.

[schild]

Man, playing Diablo online would rock! Maybe Blizzard will put online multiplayer into D3!

Not what I meant. Not even anywhere near what I meant. However, your failed attempt at humorous sarcasm WILL go on your permanent record.

[Ratman_tf]

Man, playing Diablo online would rock! Maybe Blizzard will put online multiplayer into D3!

Not what I meant. Not even anywhere near what I meant. However, your failed attempt at humorous sarcasm WILL go on your permanent record.

What of my chances of getting into Harvard now? 

Srsly. What would a Diablo MMOG be if not World of Warcraft?

[Malakili]

Assume EVE Online isn't a viable answer, I would say that Lord of the Rings Online is better than WoW. Better graphics, better crafted world, better story, better classes.  Similar gameplay.  Somewhat similar achievement system (and even did it first).  The only thing you might be able to say WoW has the edge on is PvP, and I humbly suggest that if PvP is your game, than neither WoW or LOTRO is your best option anyway.

Out of the 4 betters, 3 are completely subjective. One may be correct from a technical standpoint.

I'm certain you can see where this particular detour will end.

Um, Ok.  Better is a subjective term.  Bananas are better than apples.  Should i have to discuss molecular structure to argue my point.  Unless there is some baseline or accepted standard than the term better is always going to be an expression of personal preference.

I guess my point is...  how would one even prove one game is OBJECTIVELY better than another game.

I still just say WoW needs to be totally left out of MMO discussions.  Pretend those 10 million players don't exist and you want to make a game: Who do you aim it at?  What kind of numbers can you expect.  How do you make your design team/project sustainable with those numbers.

[Musashi]

lol

[schild]

Man, playing Diablo online would rock! Maybe Blizzard will put online multiplayer into D3!

Not what I meant. Not even anywhere near what I meant. However, your failed attempt at humorous sarcasm WILL go on your permanent record.

What of my chances of getting into Harvard now? 

Srsly. What would a Diablo MMOG be if not World of Warcraft?

Before I, or anyone, even starts - I have to ask:

Is that a joke post?

[Hindenburg]

I guess my point is...  how would one even prove one game is OBJECTIVELY better than another game.

 

I'm certain you can see where this particular detour will end.

 

[Numtini]

Does LotRO still have that bizarre lag/delay in the combat system? That alone drove me away from the game.

Yes. I've heard the autoattack excuse, but the movement is similarly sluggish, so I'm not buying it.

[Xanthippe]

Does LotRO still have that bizarre lag/delay in the combat system? That alone drove me away from the game.

Yes. I've heard the autoattack excuse, but the movement is similarly sluggish, so I'm not buying it.

I haven't played since shortly after launch, but - yeah.  There was more to it than just combat.  The general feel was ... not quickly responsive.

The other thing about it for me was that I always felt like I was playing on a painting.  Not in a painting, on a painting.  It seemed flat.  Beautiful but flat.

Did they ever fix the crafting system or is it still just a money sink?

[rattran]

WoW simply has more things to keep people hooked too. Many zones for explorers, raiding, hard-core raiding for the poopsockers, an auction system that works pretty well, crafting, etc.

Hell, the auctioneer economic domination meta-game is almost enough to keep me sub'd just for it. I heat my soul with the hate tells/mails from gold farmers.

[Venkman]

WoW is one game repeated over scores of zones with a metagame of RMT and AH gaming. There's probably only two or three personality types in the game at all. Obviously there's a lot of people with those personalities though 

A game where you grind levels for loot.  Yes.  It makes perfect sense that everyone here loves that...UNLESS YOU CONSIDER EVERYTHING EVERYONE HAS EVER SAID IN THE MMO FORUM, EVER.  

That's the different between purchase intent and purchase decision, and it applies to just about everything involving any type of polling and marketing.

We will gladly sit around all day dreaming of that magical combination of realtime deformable worlds that respond to thousands of concurrent fully-customizable characters living out solo and multiplayer branching story arcs while interacting with gruond and flying vehicles an economy that links every harvestable resource with every mega weapon and player house and city in Neal Stephensons own grand utopian matrix.

What we'll actually buy though is whatever gives us the best bling while we plod along on rails designed to make us feel slightly more powerful than whatever is around us at any given time.

Because the first is some pie-in-sky ideal we're still many generations of games away from while the other is what we can see and play today.

[Draegan]

What we'll actually buy though is whatever gives us the best bling while we plod along on rails designed to make us feel slightly more powerful than whatever is around us at any given time.

Because the first is some pie-in-sky ideal we're still many generations of games away from while the other is what we can see and play today.

I usually get flamed when I say this to people.

[tmp]

Yes. I've heard the autoattack excuse, but the movement is similarly sluggish, so I'm not buying it.

Hmm? that's first time i see the complaint about movement, tbh. Can't say i've experienced this one, unlike the combat it feels no different than any other MMO.

[Merusk]

Yes. I've heard the autoattack excuse, but the movement is similarly sluggish, so I'm not buying it.

Hmm? that's first time i see the complaint about movement, tbh. Can't say i've experienced this one, unlike the combat it feels no different than any other MMO.

I just played the trial a few days ago. Yes, it's sluggish. No, I don't see how you can't feel it at all.  CoH and even EQ felt more responsive than LOTR. I played a Champion and the shouts/ swings would often either not register or delay by a full second before going off.  Killed any desire I had to actually pay for a month or two.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes. I've heard the autoattack excuse, but the movement is similarly sluggish, so I'm not buying it.

Hmm? that's first time i see the complaint about movement, tbh. Can't say i've experienced this one, unlike the combat it feels no different than any other MMO.

I just played the trial a few days ago. Yes, it's sluggish. No, I don't see how you can't feel it at all.  CoH and even EQ felt more responsive than LOTR. I played a Champion and the shouts/ swings would often either not register or delay by a full second before going off.  Killed any desire I had to actually pay for a month or two.

I have never seen this as well, combat, sure...tad slower, gets better as you get higher because of reductions of induction times. But movement? No, sorry. Its quite responsive.

You guys do know that LOTRO uses a sort of LOD on its animation as well, its essentially the same as removing say, every 3ed frame or, every 3ed, 4th, and 5th frame..and so on (Depends on your machines and settings).

[Fordel]

I have no idea what that even means.

[Mrbloodworth]

What part?

Also, This.

[Fordel]

Yea, when I need to read a multi page document to under stand how AutoAttack works in your game...



Mr.B: I don't know what 'LOD' means in reference to animation, nor do I understand why I should care as a player.

[tmp]

I just played the trial a few days ago. Yes, it's sluggish. No, I don't see how you can't feel it at all.  CoH and even EQ felt more responsive than LOTR. I played a Champion and the shouts/ swings would often either not register or delay by a full second before going off.  Killed any desire I had to actually pay for a month or two.

That's not movement, but the combat abilities. I'm not arguing there's delay with these, there most certainly is given how their system works. But the response to WASD etc doesn't strike me as any slower than any other MMO, so hearing that surprised me. (some of characters i play rely on positional damage and on getting out of way of incoming attack, so they have to move around a lot. The movement really always feels to respond instantly minus the obvious latency factor)

edit: just checked the latency out of curiosity, LotRO reports it at ~60-70 ms level for me. No idea how it fares against average, though.

[Xuri]

Fordel: Level of detail (wikipedia)

[Arthur_Parker]

LOTRO combat is more tactical, it's slower, you could even say it's pretty boring at low levels, my personal opinion is that the tactical nature of queuing skills becomes clearer and more enjoyable as you level up, but having said all that, not liking LOTRO combat is fine.  It is slower and we have discussed this before.

[waffel]

I never had a problem with Lotro aside from the global cooldown bullshit.

However, its hard to convince your friends that a PvE 'Gay game with hobbits' is fun.

[Numtini]

Movement in LOTRO is like a really old jeep or truck with 6" of play in the steering wheel. That's the best way I can describe it. AC2 was the same way.

[Tarami]

It is slower and we have discussed this before tried beating the horse back to life before.

Sorry. Had to.  

Anyway, what you're noticing as delay is largely animation. LotRO respects animation delay so a long combat animation means a long delay. If you pay attention, you'll also notice that damage isn't always dealt at the start at the animation, but at the point where your weapon is supposed to physically collide with the enemy.

Edit:
It's fine not liking this. But it's completely intentional on Turbine's side and it makes perfect sense if you watch the animations.

[Ratman_tf]

Man, playing Diablo online would rock! Maybe Blizzard will put online multiplayer into D3!

Not what I meant. Not even anywhere near what I meant. However, your failed attempt at humorous sarcasm WILL go on your permanent record.

What of my chances of getting into Harvard now? 

Srsly. What would a Diablo MMOG be if not World of Warcraft?

Before I, or anyone, even starts - I have to ask:

Is that a joke post?

I don't think so.

[MahrinSkel]

It is slower and we have discussed this before tried beating the horse back to life before.

Sorry. Had to.  

Anyway, what you're noticing as delay is largely animation. LotRO respects animation delay so a long combat animation means a long delay. If you pay attention, you'll also notice that damage isn't always dealt at the start at the animation, but at the point where your weapon is supposed to physically collide with the enemy.

Edit:
It's fine not liking this. But it's completely intentional on Turbine's side and it makes perfect sense if you watch the animations.

Except...I really need to blog about this, but there's a great deal of research about "proprioception" that explains why this is just completely wrong.  To make a long story short, good game design requires that the players be allowed to make a connection between what they are doing (mentally and physically) and what is happening on screen.  It is better to have animations get chopped up, cut off, or just plain skipped, in the interests of maintaining that connection.  The cost is that to an external observer the action looks choppy and randomized, because they are not perceiving the internals of it the player is.

Game design and gameplay are not improvisational machinima.

--Dave

[Xanthippe]

Yeah, pretty much I as a player don't care WHY it happens.  The fact that it seems slow makes it seem clunky and unfun.