Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[kildorn]

The shocking thing is the same staff had a PVP game, added a PVE grind to it, it BOMBED, and they publicly admitted it was a horrible idea.

And then the same staff has a PVP game, suddenly adds a giant pve grind to it, it bombs, and dear god it's TOA from day 1 again.

[chargerrich]

The shocking thing is the same staff had a PVP game, added a PVE grind to it, it BOMBED, and they publicly admitted it was a horrible idea.

And then the same staff has a PVP game, suddenly adds a giant pve grind to it, it bombs, and dear god it's TOA from day 1 again.

That is certainly part of the fail equation. But whats intriquing is why everyone could see that except MJ and Co.?

I would hazard a guess that if they made the grind much easier (not 10% but more like 300-500%) more people would have created 1,2,3 or more max rank characters. Is that a fair assumption? That in trickle down fashion leads to more robust PVP while having 2 or more max rank characters makes you the subscriber more INVESTED in your account and would have provided some additional level of retention.

We can certainly argue if that would have saved 1k or 300k subs, but it would have helped. Who outside of MJ really thought the grind model they imposed would HELP retention? How do these people keep jobs?

Mind boggling...

[Numtini]

i think you had posted that you couldn't move something, and posted an image of someone doing just what you wanted.

I was just putting in my opinion that the game isn't all that and I know people here are really in love with it. So I don't want to derail, but no not really. It's done with smoke and mirrors, PM me if you want to know how. They're planning to replace the UI with a configurable one. It was talked about from launch, promised for MOM and bumped, and is supposed to be coming soon.

[Mrbloodworth]

i think you had posted that you couldn't move something, and posted an image of someone doing just what you wanted.

I was just putting in my opinion that the game isn't all that and I know people here are really in love with it. So I don't want to derail, but no not really. It's done with smoke and mirrors, PM me if you want to know how. They're planning to replace the UI with a configurable one. It was talked about from launch, promised for MOM and bumped, and is supposed to be coming soon.

Yeah, i know about the UI...but uh... Clicky
I'm Not in love with it, i just respect it, and turbine.

[ghost]

The shocking thing is the same staff had a PVP game, added a PVE grind to it, it BOMBED, and they publicly admitted it was a horrible idea.

And then the same staff has a PVP game, suddenly adds a giant pve grind to it, it bombs, and dear god it's TOA from day 1 again.

Actually, my theory is that if they simply had a better AI and improved the PVE mechanics a bit people would enjoy the game more.  The problem with PVP is that it is so dependent on people being online and available.  If the rest of the game sucks, you log on and say, "Eh, nobody is on................mmmmmmm guess I'll log off."  The basics are there to have an interesting PVE experience, but they just fucked it up royally with crap like public quests and a lame AI.

[Numtini]

Yeah, i know about the UI...but uh... Clicky

That's done by replacing the png's that define the bottom bar with transparent ones. It's still there and the buttons on it can't be moved or replaced, so you lose button access to social panel, character panel, quest panel etc. Well sort of lose them, since they're still there, when I tried a similar interface, I would occasionally have the icons on the bottom bar flicker into view when the mouse moved over them.

It's effectively the AC2 bottom bar with a bunch of new moveable elements. The new ones aren't too terrible to work with, but the blob on the bottom is a complete PITA and screws everything up.

And really, everyone other than LOTRO since Shadowbane has shipped with a fully configurable interface haven't they?

[WindupAtheist]

I'm sure LOTRO is a swell game, and it's apparently making enough money for the company to keep chugging along, but let's be serious. Turbine did not develop games around seemingly-golden properties like Dungeons & Dragons and Lord of the Rings hoping they would land in the same general subscription bracket as doddering "Is that still around?" relics like UO and EQ1.

[Delmania]

I'm sure LOTRO is a swell game, and it's apparently making enough money for the company to keep chugging along, but let's be serious. Turbine did not develop games around seemingly-golden properties like Dungeons & Dragons and Lord of the Rings hoping they would land in the same general subscription bracket as doddering "Is that still around?" relics like UO and EQ1.

Right. I am sure they are wishing DDO and LoTRO were doing better.  The thing, instead of cutting staff and posting YouTube videos, they shut up and worked on their games.

[ghost]

I'm sure LOTRO is a swell game, and it's apparently making enough money for the company to keep chugging along, but let's be serious. Turbine did not develop games around seemingly-golden properties like Dungeons & Dragons and Lord of the Rings hoping they would land in the same general subscription bracket as doddering "Is that still around?" relics like UO and EQ1.

Nobody comes out with an MMO these days with that goal.  Clearly Turbine thinks they can improve their market share.  If they didn't, it would cease to exist although I certainly wonder about the longevity of DDO.

[Numtini]

Right. I am sure they are wishing DDO and LoTRO were doing better.  The thing, instead of cutting staff and posting YouTube videos, they shut up and worked on their games.

Actually, didn't they fire a manager or designer at some point early on?

[tmp]

The new ones aren't too terrible to work with, but the blob on the bottom is a complete PITA and screws everything up.

But being unable to customize one part of the UI isn't exactly the same as "zero ability to customize the UI", is it?

[Delmania]

Right. I am sure they are wishing DDO and LoTRO were doing better.  The thing, instead of cutting staff and posting YouTube videos, they shut up and worked on their games.

Actually, didn't they fire a manager or designer at some point early on?

I don't know, but I do know they did layoff people in December.  However, it's not like they gutted their senor design team..

[amiable]

I think it is quite obvious that what WAR desperately needed was another experience bar. 

I suppose I'm not adding anything new here but my Beta experience with the game was terrific, PvP was fun in Tiers 1, 2 and 4 (where I played) and there were glitches but overall the game seemed great.

Then they:

1.  Doubled the XP required to level and nerfed PvP xp making the grind incredibly painfully.
2.  Re-itemized everything so that to get decent gear you needed to wade through mind-numbingly boring PvE content.
3.  Decided what PvP gamers desperately want is a PvE cockblock to PvP content.

Any one of these mistakes is poisounous but all three?  I cannot believe those folks had any idea what they were doing or I will fall back to my original theory that MJ was being paid off by Blizzard to run the game into the ground.

I am a bit curious about the culture of Mythic, because surely there must have been quite a few subordinates aware of these issues.  Did they say something and were ignored or refused to say anything out of fear?

[Venkman]

Success=profit is too simplistic. A game can turn a tidy profit and then get managed right into the ground. Or a game could turn out a loss and then get turned around. (Which would make it an investment.  ) Which means I agree with what you posted, except for the first sentence.

Actually, that's where "plan" ceases to be one and instead becomes "reaction".

Yea, you can react as poorly to a failure as you can to a success 

[WindupAtheist]

I'm pretty sure Turbine shitcanned it's CEO shortly after LOTRO came out. Enough of this "Anything that doesn't put your company out of business is success!" stuff.

[Delmania]

I'm pretty sure Turbine shitcanned it's CEO shortly after LOTRO came out. Enough of this "Anything that doesn't put your company out of business is success!" stuff.

I can think of another company that would do well to consider this bold move.

[Draegan]

Even a week before launch they took out all the pvp gear you could buy and replaced it with shit.  I remember wanting to take over keeps in T1 so I could buy my blue pvp gear set.  I wanted to hit ranks 10 and 11 so I could be badass among that tier.

Then they took it all out and made it so any pvp outside scenarios was useless.

Fucking idiots.

[Bismallah]

Try not to puke on your shoes:

"Actually Jeff is quite right. First, our sub numbers have been increasing and second, we never announced our subscription numbers prior to the recent earnings call. Our news item from the Herald announced quite clearly that 750K registered for the game not subscribed to the game. This is no different that pretty much every other MMO maker has done in the past whether they call it players registered, boxes sold, etc. We would have done the boxes sold thing but we sold a lot of copies digitally. It would have been a really cool to have said we had 750K (especially that early in October) but to have 750K subs before even their free month expired would be impossible. Thus, I can say 100%, that we never had 750,000 subscribers. Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between boxes sold and subscribers. The percentage of people that become subscribers after their free month is generally called "conversion rate" and no game, not even WoW, had a 100% conversion rate. DAoC, which was quite successful by the standards of the times, had a very nice conversion rate but it was nowhere near 100% and neither was EQ or any other subscription-based MMORPG that I aware of. I've talked about this subject a number of times before and I'm sure my exact quote about DAoC can be found on the 'Net. happy

FYI, we are trying to contact the journalist as well so he can have the correct information.

Mark"

Linky: http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/110191818/p3

[Venkman]

I'm pretty sure Turbine shitcanned it's CEO shortly after LOTRO came out. Enough of this "Anything that doesn't put your company out of business is success!" stuff.

Anderson was the one who made the public claim that with 1mil "characters created", LoTRO was [then] officially the second largest MMO on the market behind WoW. I'm sure not meeting the expectations set by having the IP was a part of it too, but I remember wondering how long that sort of blatant spin would work for him (read: it didn't). If they hadn't let him go I'm sure we'd have seen months of forum dancing 

And nobody's saying success = staying afloat at all.

[Evil Elvis]

I'm pretty sure Turbine shitcanned it's CEO shortly after LOTRO came out. Enough of this "Anything that doesn't put your company out of business is success!" stuff.

Jeff Anderson, and I believe they did.  Good move on their part, too.  They promoted him for AC2 for chrissake.

[HaemishM]

Ok, wait a goddamn minute. Is Mark saying that 1) they sold 1.2 million boxes, then 2) converted that 1.2 million into 750k registered, and from THAT number they got 3) 300k subs. So is he trying to claim that 25% box to converted subscriber rate is GOOD? Because it's fucking not, in any way, shape or form GOOD. It is in fact SHIT, seeing as how that 25% is what you are counting on to pay salaries after launch.

[Arthur_Parker]

They went from 800,000 current users in their first reporting quarter to 300,000 subscribers in their second reporting quarter .  As they didn't actually list subscriber numbers in the first reporting quarter, that means they can legitimately say their subscriber numbers have gone up.  Meanwhile back here on planet earth, 

[Azazel]

That dumb cunt really needs to stop posting on message boards.

[Delmania]

They went from 800,000 current users in their first reporting quarter to 300,000 subscribers in their second reporting quarter .  As they didn't actually list subscriber numbers in the first reporting quarter, that means they can legitimately say their subscriber numbers have gone up.  Meanwhile back here on planet earth, 

Not current users, registered users.  I really do not know what that means.  Does he mean people who sign up for the newsletter?  People who created account at  EA Accounts?

At any rate, sounds like he's doing some numbers spinning like the Turbine CEO did...

[Arthur_Parker]

Not current users, registered users.

No it was current users/players, see EA quarter link below.

Press Release September 19, 2008

Overall, the company has sold 1.5 million units of WAR to retailers.

EA REPORTS Quarter to Sept 30

Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, an MMO from EA’s Mythic Entertainment studio, sold 1.2 million copies in the quarter – with over 800 thousand current players.

MarkJacobsEA VNBoards 11/3/08 3:17pm

Oh, and as some of the threads indicated, our CEO called out our numbers a few times during last week's earnings call. That's why I've been so silent on them. Couldn't steal the thunder from our CEO, not a nice thing to do and not great for the old job security thing. Our sales are absolutely fabulous and as JR said, our conversion rate is not only high but it is higher than it was during our DAoC days by a nice margin. And as I've said before, we couldn't say that if it wasn't true unless we wanted to possibly spend some time at one of our country's finer penal establishments and I have no intention of ever doing that.

MarkJacobsEA VNBoards 11/3/08 6:32pm

Our retention rate is higher than 70% based on current data. DAoC was indeed 72% in North America. WAR's number is higher and remains higher than DAoC since billing began. I'm quite happy with WAR's numbers as they are exactly what I expected they would be.
...
Oh, here's another fact FYI. I've never, ever said anything about WAR hitting WoW's numbers or anything like that and since we have already sold more copies of WAR than any other MMO (with the usual caveat of maybe WoW since I don't have their exact numbers) during the first 6 weeks how can I be anything but pleased with that? All my quotes/interviews have always focused on us being #2 as my goal and in terms of initial sales, well, we have met and/or exceeded that goal. In a year we'll really be able to judge how successful WAR is overall.

[Ingmar]

Not current users, registered users.  I really do not know what that means.  Does he mean people who sign up for the newsletter?  People who created account at  EA Accounts?

It means people who bought the box and created accounts and were on their free month. Those people are not yet subscribers.

[Nevermore]

This just in: Mark Jacobs lies.

[Jamiko]

He wanted to be number two and now he is! 
full of it that is

[EWSpider]

Number two is what comes out of his mouth when he opens it.

[chargerrich]

Try not to puke on your shoes:

"More spin control BS from Mark on why his failing game and layoffs are really not as they appear"

Linky: http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/110191818/p3

Seriously Mark you are coming off like a complete and disingenuous tool at best and someone with no idea how to run a gaming organization at worst. This sinking ship was directed by you and fails because of your warped sense on what players want despite Blizzard blazing the path for you.

Are you related to Brad McQuaid?

[Modern Angel]

Seriously Mark you are coming off like a complete and disingenuous tool at best and someone with no idea how to run a gaming organization at worst. This sinking ship was directed by you and fails because of your warped sense on what players want despite Blizzard blazing the path for you.

Are you related to Brad McQuaid?

Why are you referring to him as "you"? He's not coming back, you know?

[chargerrich]

Seriously Mark you are coming off like a complete and disingenuous tool at best and someone with no idea how to run a gaming organization at worst. This sinking ship was directed by you and fails because of your warped sense on what players want despite Blizzard blazing the path for you.

Are you related to Brad McQuaid?

Why are you referring to him as "you"? He's not coming back, you know?

Indeed and these boards are better for it.
Just like a lot of former WAR players (like 500k) are not coming back to his shitty game.

[Delmania]

As a friend of mine pointed out, there's some hefty spinning going on here.

Our retention rate is higher than 70% based on current data. DAoC was indeed 72% in North America. WAR's number is higher and remains higher than DAoC since billing began. I'm quite happy with WAR's numbers as they are exactly what I expected they would be.

These are some points a friend of mine made.  There's 2 things going on there - conversion rate and retention rate.  If I am reading this correctly, the conversion rate is the percentage of people who created and account and put in a code to activate their first month pf play.  Then we have retention rate, the monthly percentage of people who continue to play.  The game had 800,000 registered users, with 300,000 subscribers.  Assuming his 70% is accurate, that means, of the 800,000 that registered, 428,000 converted, which is about 53.5%.    Now, I just need someone to call me a fcking idiot and point out where I am wrong! 

[Mrbloodworth]

I thought all the war "Hate" was confined to the sub forums.

[kildorn]

As a friend of mine pointed out, there's some hefty spinning going on here.

Our retention rate is higher than 70% based on current data. DAoC was indeed 72% in North America. WAR's number is higher and remains higher than DAoC since billing began. I'm quite happy with WAR's numbers as they are exactly what I expected they would be.

These are some points a friend of mine made.  There's 2 things going on there - conversion rate and retention rate.  If I am reading this correctly, the conversion rate is the percentage of people who created and account and put in a code to activate their first month pf play.  Then we have retention rate, the monthly percentage of people who continue to play.  The game had 800,000 registered users, with 300,000 subscribers.  Assuming his 70% is accurate, that means, of the 800,000 that registered, 428,000 converted, which is about 53.5%.    Now, I just need someone to call me a fcking idiot and point out where I am wrong! 

Conversion rate is supposed to be the number of free monthers you get to give you a credit card number. I don't know what his numbers are, but that's the general use I've seen for it. I don't know if there's an industry term for people who bought the game and never created an account for MMOs.