The thread wherein Windows 7 is discussed...

[Lantyssa]

Win 2k = NT5/Windows 5
Win XP = Windows 6
Vista = Windows 7

edit: to clarify my point the choice of a new "iteration" was for marketing reasons and not for your usual software life cycle/production reasons.

XP is Win 5.1

Things aren't that different between 2k and XP.

[Yegolev]

Here's a new thought: Microsoft realizes that the vast majority of their sold software is on pre-built machines utilizing last generation (at best) technology and in order to attempt to salvage their name has decided not to bloat the hell out of their next release so that it will run passably.

I don't believe these people care a lot about performance.  It certainly isn't keeping people from buying preinstalled $199 Dells, or whatever the hoi-polloi buy.  I'm pretty sure they just want to be able to find out when the hobo supper at church starts before they turn off the computer by flipping the power switch.

As for enthusiasts not buying Vista, I think it is generally accepted that it's mostly a perception thing.  I still run XP because I don't see any benefit in spending the cash, but I might not be normal.  When I build my wife's new computer shortly, I'm going to put Vista 64 on it because I'm an enthusiast that is building a new quad-core 64-bit machine out of Intel parts.  This might seem like an insular case where I'm converting to 64-bit, but really this happens each revision so some degree, if only because of driver support.  Worst case, we have a situation in which Windows drives sales of Intel CPUs and Intel just writes a check to MicroSoft every quarter.  It's likely more complex so as to avoid gubment intervention.

Interestingly, I work for a rather large corporation and our standard is XP Pro SP2 for tens of thousands of desktop/laptop machines.  We will switch when MicroSoft's support forces us to, just like when we went from W2K.  Performance doesn't have anything to do with it, to my knowledge, especially since we run SAP GUI and Office.  Actually, we recently went to Office 07, which is a larger swine to be sure and it necessitated some memory upgrades for people.

[Viin]

At least you using Office 07 now, we are still on Office 2002 with Outlook 2003. 2002 doesn't play well with files saved from my Mac Office 2008.

[Yegolev]

That is an interesting comment and I wonder why that is.  There are a few features that make 07 different and perhaps desirable, but I don't know that your Mac Office problem is magically solved.  I'd suspect the file-format problems only get worse as iterations come out.  Really, unless you find Excel's limits to be too restrictive I don't see much need to upgrade.  Although the formatting tools are pretty damn awesome (for all the 07 apps, esp nice for PowerPoint) and pivot charts are easier to make.

I think the main reason we upgraded was that 07 let us have some integrated security for documents, but I'm not sure at all.

Don't try to get sympathy from me with invoking Outlook.  I use Lotus Notes.

[Salamok]

Don't try to get sympathy from me with invoking Outlook.  I use Lotus Notes.

i'm stuck on groupwise  which isn't even close to being the worst of the outdated tech crap that is forced on us.

[Viin]

Don't try to get sympathy from me with invoking Outlook.  I use Lotus Notes.

Ahahaha. Actually, I think Entourage 2008 is pretty good.. from random glimpses of Outlook 2007, it looks like it has gotten better with the latest release.

We don't typically upgrade until we have to, the only reason we even have Office 2008 for OS X is because the older version of Entourage didn't play with our Exchange server very well at all. The problem I'm experiencing is where I create a PowerPoint in 2008, save it in the 97-2002 format (ppt vs pptx) and deliver it to a buncha folks.. they open it and all the images have black backgrounds, and some of the text is actually converted into an image (so now they can't edit it) - weird stuff.

I *think* Office 2007 uses the same file format as Office 2008 for OS X .. but I haven't tested that as I don't have Office 2007.

[Nazrat]

Don't try to get sympathy from me with invoking Outlook.  I use Lotus Notes.

i'm stuck on groupwise  which isn't even close to being the worst of the outdated tech crap that is forced on us.

Yeah, my state run agency is also stuck on groupwise.  I hate having to try to figure out how to do simple tasks that every other PIM/email program/calendar program has figured out how to do in a pull down menu. 

We are upgrading to Office 07 once the "new computers" arrive.  They were scheduled for November, 2008.  I love working for the government sometimes.  :)

[Big Gulp]

Okay, so after a couple days running this I have the following to say:

The new task bar definitely takes some getting used to.  There are subtle indications on the icon, such as a slight glassy look if an application is open.  If I have multiple instances of that app open then there's a sort of "stack" effect applied to that icon.  It doesn't immediately jump out at you.  I'm of a mixed opinion on this one.  On the one hand, it does eliminate some of the taskbar clutter, but on the other hand I think the clues they give you about what is open are probably a little bit too subtle.  I never really liked how OS X did this, and this is very much MS mimicking that.

Browsing through the explorer is now very fast.  In Vista there was always a slight lag switching between hard drives and folders.  Except in rare instances this is pretty much gone.  Directories just pop up instantly as soon as you select them.

Game performance is definitely better.  I usually have uTorrent and an XVid rip going on my second monitor with WoW running in windowed mode on my main, and I'd get around 40 FPS.  It's a solid 60 with slight dips here and there now.  I can't really tell you about other games, because I don't tend to have so much stuff running in the background when I'm playing more graphically intense games, so I wouldn't really be able to notice any boost.

For a beta, drivers really aren't much of an issue.  The only problem I had installing drivers were for my RealTek onboard soundcard.  That was solved just by running the setup in Vista compatibility mode with admin priveleges.  Every other driver I had installed without a hitch.

Final verdict:  This is now my main OS 'til they pull the plug on the beta.  I'll feel like a sucker buying it since I just bought Vista something like 18 months ago, but from what I've seen so far this is definitely worth it.

[Yegolev]

Good enough for me.

[Tebonas]

Sadly my weak old CPU doesn't run this puppy properly. Not that I know much about Vista performance numbers, but my SATA is performing at a 3.0 from 7.9, and the CPU somewhat above 4. It still crawls compared to XP. Maybe with a new hardware upgrade once it is out of beta.

[Nonentity]

Just getting this setup on a system here at work for testing purposes.

I am excited about all the new keyboard shortcuts!

[Salamok]

I think installing this is going to be my project for the 3 day weekend.  I read the thing about backing up you mp3's but other than that any problems laying this alongside XP in dual boot config?

[Viin]

For some reason it won't map my IDE drive, so all of the files I backed up to it are safe... and completely unreachable.

[Big Gulp]

For some reason it won't map my IDE drive, so all of the files I backed up to it are safe... and completely unreachable.

Really?  2 of my drives are IDE and it mapped them without a problem...  Have you updated your mobo's drivers yet?

[Viin]

Really?  2 of my drives are IDE and it mapped them without a problem...  Have you updated your mobo's drivers yet?

Yah that was the first thing I did. Not sure what is going on, but it finds it under hardware (device manager) but doesn't recognize any partitions and won't let me assign a drive letter to it. Weird. I think I'm going to have to boot into Vista and move my files off it, go back into Win7 and reformat it. My SATA drives show up just fine (1 raid array, and 1 standalone).

[Ratman_tf]

I really don’t understand the Vista hate.

People praising XP and damning Vista should remember Windows XP's state at launch, before it had 2 service packs worth of fixing behind it.

I'm sure Vista/Windows 7/Mojave/Monchichi will be a perfectly great OS when I'm ready to switch to it.

[Viin]

btw - i am still boggled by the total lack of an up folder button.  Not sure if they fixed it but my 1st Vista experience right after release consisted of the following data cleanup scenario (basically copied a bunch of user data onto the new laptop then went to clean it up):

1 - go into a folder to see what the heck it contained, see a bunch of subfolders.
2 - go into each subfolder to see what they contained, back out of the folder and delete it if it was garbage.
3 - done with the parent folder so try and get back to a level above it.
4 - WTF?  Guess what used to be a commonly used 1 click operation now isn't and I seem to recall Vista actually giving me an error when trying to use the back button when the last folder visited was deleted.

I was doing a lot of file moving today and ran into the same problem. Took me a minute, but you can actually click on the parent directory name in the Location bar (or any folder name) and it will take you to that directory.

[Evil Elvis]

The nforce 9300/780i drivers won't install for my mobo; throws some cryptic error code =/  Kinda funny since there's only 4-5 motherboards out using this chipset, and Asus is by far the most popular of them.

[Viin]

Try it in Vista mode?

[NiX]

Run as Admin + Vista Compatibility has fixed any issue I've had with installing something.

[Engels]

BigGulp, what system are you running? I ask because explorer on my Vista box is as instantaneous as I could wish for, unless, of course, I have that whole thumbnail thing going on in a folder with tons of pictures, in which case it does take a while.

Another thing, I'm not sure how significant having Wow FPS at 30 in two monitor mode is nowawdays.

[Big Gulp]

BigGulp, what system are you running? I ask because explorer on my Vista box is as instantaneous as I could wish for, unless, of course, I have that whole thumbnail thing going on in a folder with tons of pictures, in which case it does take a while.

I've got an AMD 64 X2 at 2.8Ghz with 8 gigs of RAM.  And yep, I'd still have a delay in explorer.

Another thing, I'm not sure how significant having Wow FPS at 30 in two monitor mode is nowawdays.

Did you even read my post?  I was getting 40 in dual monitors with a two-pass Xvid rip running in the background.  That's a fairly math heavy process.

[NiX]

I think installing this is going to be my project for the 3 day weekend.  I read the thing about backing up you mp3's but other than that any problems laying this alongside XP in dual boot config?

MP3 patch is either embedded in the ISOs now or it updates right away. All of mine are full length.

[fuser]

* Win+Home: Clear all but the active window
* Win+Space: All windows become transparent so you can see through to the desktop
* Win+Up arrow: Maximize the active window
* Win+Down arrow: Minimize the window/Restore the window if it's maximized
* Win+Left/Right arrows: Dock the window to each side of the monitor (If you've got dual monitors, adding Shift to the mix (e.g., Win+Shift+Right arrow) will move the window to the adjacent monitor.)
* Win+T: Focus and scroll through items on the taskbar.
* Win+P: Adjust presentation settings for your display
* Win+(+/-): Zoom in/out
* Shift+Click a taskbar item: Open a new instance of that application

New shortcut key's

[Venkman]

That said, many people do have 8gig and a quad core now.

Whoa, wuh? Define "many". 

[stray]

Gamers and enthusiasts maybe. Probably will be common soon enough though.

[rattran]

That said, many people do have 8gig and a quad core now.

Whoa, wuh? Define "many". 

More than 'few'
And Gamers and enthusiasts are the early adopters of stuff. Quad-core seems to be becoming mainstream, by the time Windows7 launches for real, I expect quad will be what dual-core is now.

[Venkman]

Fake edit: This isn't about you, because I should have asked this first: when do you think Win7 is going to release to the public?

This sounds like the same argument used to push the higher base reqs for Vista. But at least then they had the vague and unsubstantiated improvement potential of DX10 to point to. Now?

Also, this doesn't address the fact that core gamers optimize their systems for, well, gaming. This group is the slowest adopters of Vista for that reason. What was it touted for about 18 months? Something like a 17% overall speed reduction going to Vista? Truth or not it kept a lot of people in XP, so much so that the message got out even to the Dell consumers of the world, slowing down the expiration of XP. And the bigger carrot (DX10) did nothing for Vista because developers were caught in the chicken-and-egg thing (slow adoption means slowing the need to capitalize on the tech means a way to reduce dev costs).

Finally, we are not the quantities Microsoft needs to roll out an OS. They need to convince the average consumer, the HP/Dell/Best Buy/People slowly trickling away to the Mac. When THIS crowd didn't want Vista (largely due to uninformed response to bad coverage), you've got a real problem.

[stray]

If they truly wanted to appeal to that crowd, they'd make an entirely new OS. 


No, actually, I'm partly serious. I hate that Microsoft mostly just does a lot of cosmetic upgrades to their operating systems, but never follows good interface guidelines on the nuts and bolts -- normal people still have to interact with those too.. Mostly "monolithic" apps/lack of a gazillion .dlls/Drag and drop installs would be nice, .ini files instead of registry, etc..

[MahrinSkel]

Even once Dell is selling 8gig quad-cores for it's $400 desktops, we're a ways from that being the "standard".  The best system in my house is only dual-core with 3GB (and it's not mine).

--Dave

[fuser]

btw: Windows installer crapped itself tonight unable install anything MSI based

Faulting application name: MSIEXEC.EXE, version: 5.0.7000.0, time stamp: 0x49431c33
Faulting module name: ntdll.dll, version: 6.1.7000.0, time stamp: 0x49433f8c
Exception code: 0xc0000005

Only major issue so far, not bad for a beta.

[Engels]

uhm, green text? Or do you think the problem is something you did? cuc ntdll.dll sound, like, you know, important. having that word 'nt' in it and all.

[Sheepherder]

The Native API (with capitalized N) is the publicly incompletely documented application programming interface used internally by the Windows NT family of operating systems produced by Microsoft.  Most of the Native API calls are implemented in ntoskrnl.exe and are exposed to user mode by ntdll.dll. Some Native API calls are implemented in user mode directly within ntdll.dll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntdll.dll

The fault (0xc0000005) was an access violation.  Old installer attempts to call functions which are now restricted and crashes.  What's old is new again.

[Merusk]

At least you using Office 07 now, we are still on Office 2002 with Outlook 2003. 2002 doesn't play well with files saved from my Mac Office 2008.

You use an office suite that was put together in the last 10 years? What, is your company rich?  Office 97.. "hey you have to save that .doc file down for me."

Even once Dell is selling 8gig quad-cores for it's $400 desktops, we're a ways from that being the "standard".  The best system in my house is only dual-core with 3GB (and it's not mine).

And longer still for businesses that aren't software-related.  Those who don't have to have newer machines get the old hand-me-downs from those who do.  My dept gets the new machines that wind-up in Estimating/ Accounting 4-5 years later and then from there MIGHT be sent out someplace else.  (Mine's 4 1/2 years old now, but its not getting upgraded due to the economy being in the shitter.)   The company just gave away machines that had been sitting around after the last downsizing, former employees had been using P3s w/ 512MB of memory as recently as a year ago. 

[fuser]

uhm, green text? Or do you think the problem is something you did?

No green, it's a beta. Expected it to pillage my PC.  From everything I read via google/windows forums there are a few people experiencing this, some believe its ccleaner (didn't run), or it could of been one of the crashes I had (video card blew up forcing a restart when moving a video playing over WoW).

Oh well the fix is either a reinstall or restore point.