Bram Stoker's Dracula

[Lt.Dan]

I remember seeing this movie on release and feeling totally ripped off.

I saw it again on cable recently and couldn't tear myself away.  Totally drawn in.  I can't describe why so I'll put it down to getting old and cranky.  Or maybe my taste in movies in my teens was driven more by power/revenge fantasy and violence than anything else.  (Universal Soldier was awesome I tells ya!)

[stray]

They're too different for me to measure against each other. It's like the difference between a space opera and a hard science fiction story (just to be geeky about it). The underlying plots are polar opposites too, even if they are both mob movies. Godfather is about a legitimate guy getting involved in something he doesn't want, making difficult choices out of necessity - and dies, never able to get out of it. Goodfellas is about a guy who romanticizes bullshit from the get go, takes the easy way out in life, and takes the easy way by fucking the very people he romanticized... Equal movies, in their own way... But Michael Corleone was less of a douchebag, I think.

Godfather glorified and romanticized the Mob.  The undercurrent and theme was the moral decay that life caused on those who engaged in it,  and on Michael's hypocracy.


In Goodfellas,  Henry Hill bought into the romantic imagery and let himself be used by the organization.  The viewer, though, sees that the romanticized image is all gilding and bullshit from near the start.  It's the organizations final betrayals, where:

1.  Paulie gives him a couple of thousand dollars and tells him not to come back,  despite decades of earning for them.
2.  Jimmy Conway is obviously plotting the murder of he and his wife to tie up loose ends

That breaks the romantic image and leads him to testify against his friends.


The scene in the bar,  right before Jimmy starts his killing spree, with the close up of Deniro's face while Sunshine of Your Love starts playing?  I think that's not only one of Deniro's greatest performances,  but probably my favorite scene in cinema.

If you recall though, he was already fucking up with Paulie because of drug dealing/use.

Hell, the real Henry Hill is still a fuckup, and kept getting busted with narcotics even after the Witness Protection Program. I have to wonder if the falling out was all his doing.

As for romanticizing.. It's just that the main themes could be summed up like:

"As far back as I can remember, I've always wanted to be a gangster." And from almost up to the end, it's scenes that make you really wish you were in the mob (that smoking/sunshine of your love scene you mentioned above, the scene where Henry takes Karen through back route into the club..).

With Godfather, it's "There wasn't enough time, Michael". Or rather, and more famously, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in..." I don't think it's a silly romanticization on how the young Vito ends up in the mob either. Seems plausible enough (if you recall, he got in it by stepping in and assassinating Don Fannuci, who was squeezing money out of everyone in his district). Michael's story is the same.. he's basically the sweet, geeky son who stepped in to save his "pop". 2 and 3 is just him grasping at any straw he can to legitimize - but he never pulls it off. It doesn't exactly treat his mob life in a good light (and I think the story really tries to test your sympathy/limits with him when he has Fredo killed). His daughter dies, his son hates his guts, his once humble sister (Talia Shire) is now a vicious cunt, the control of the family finally goes to Vincent, who's even more of a self-serving douchebag than Henry Hill, and the Corleone family is lost forever. The end. It's one of the most bleak, non-romantic epics made, I think.

[Abagadro]

Silent films were overly acted melodramatic shiite.

Imagine that! A movie with no sound would need exaggerated emoting to convey what the hell was going on. Shocking.

[stray]

Silent movies can be amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhC7fK9ui2g

^ I don't care if he was melodramatic or not.. Few people can be as creepy or gut wrenching as that guy. That was an actor.

[stray]

On a completely different sidenote, I'm reading that Lon Chaney is a distant ancestor to BOTH of Dick Cheney and Barack Obama. How odd.

[Merusk]

Silent films were overly acted melodramatic shiite.

Imagine that! A movie with no sound would need exaggerated emoting to convey what the hell was going on. Shocking.

You should have mentioned "Shitty picture quality" as well. As seen in the youtube Stray linked it's not like these were high quality images.  Or you could've just ignored it since it was just Broughden. 

[Trippy]

On a completely different sidenote, I'm reading that Lon Chaney is a distant ancestor to BOTH of Dick Cheney and Barack Obama. How odd.

Well Dick Cheney and Barack Obama are related so it's expected that there are other people that are related to the both of them.

[Broughden]

Silent films were overly acted melodramatic shiite.

Imagine that! A movie with no sound would need exaggerated emoting to convey what the hell was going on. Shocking.

You should have mentioned "Shitty picture quality" as well. As seen in the youtube Stray linked it's not like these were high quality images.  Or you could've just ignored it since it was just Broughden. 

Dur dur dur. My point still stands. It was the beginning of the industry and what was being produced was shit. Hell 75% of what comes out of Hollywood is still shit.
But liking it just because it is old and paying "homage" to it? No. Thats as retarded as music appreciation teachers or music snobs saying you MUST like composer "X" because his music is 300 years old. Well its a 300 year old turd then.
Or a literary teacher saying you MUST read and like Moby Dick because its a "classic." No its a long winded bunch of tripe that should have been condensed down to a short story. Same with War and Peace.

Being old does not equal being good or being tribute worthy.

[stray]

Yeah, I like silent movies because they're old.





^ May have been the inspiration for : 

[HaemishM]

Or a literary teacher saying you MUST read and like Moby Dick because its a "classic." No its a long winded bunch of tripe that should have been condensed down to a short story. Same with War and Peace.

Please to stop talking now.

[Pennilenko]

Silent films were overly acted melodramatic shiite.

Imagine that! A movie with no sound would need exaggerated emoting to convey what the hell was going on. Shocking.

You should have mentioned "Shitty picture quality" as well. As seen in the youtube Stray linked it's not like these were high quality images.  Or you could've just ignored it since it was just Broughden. 

Dur dur dur. My point still stands. It was the beginning of the industry and what was being produced was shit. Hell 75% of what comes out of Hollywood is still shit.
But liking it just because it is old and paying "homage" to it? No. Thats as retarded as music appreciation teachers or music snobs saying you MUST like composer "X" because his music is 300 years old. Well its a 300 year old turd then.
Or a literary teacher saying you MUST read and like Moby Dick because its a "classic." No its a long winded bunch of tripe that should have been condensed down to a short story. Same with War and Peace.

Being old does not equal being good or being tribute worthy.

Don't be an idiot Moby Dick isn't a major part of literature because its a "classic", its a major part of literature because its a damn engaging book with deep moral and psychological issues. Have you read it?

[Yegolev]

Well Dick Cheney and Barack Obama are related so it's expected that there are other people that are related to the both of them.

I demand a Venn diagram as proof of your assertion.

Since we're jumping on a bandwagon here, I like Metropolis a great deal.  It manages to carry a lot of social commentary, in my opinion.  I also really liked Heart of Darkness, although I was very much alone among my high-school classmates.  I'm pretty sure they didn't get it, nor did they seem to understand the literary language we had been supposedly learning all year.

[IainC]

Being old does not equal being good or being tribute worthy.

We don't acclaim classics just because they are old, we esteem them because they are worthy. People wrote mediocre stuff back then as well. None of that survives while Maupassant, Mozart, Dickens etc are remembered long after their deaths. There's a reason for that and it isn't 'because it's old'.

[Ingmar]

Same with War and Peace.

Never have I been more tempted to post that ASCII facepalm dude.

[HaemishM]

That thing is only funny because it's OLD. 

[Broughden]

Silent films were overly acted melodramatic shiite.

Imagine that! A movie with no sound would need exaggerated emoting to convey what the hell was going on. Shocking.

You should have mentioned "Shitty picture quality" as well. As seen in the youtube Stray linked it's not like these were high quality images.  Or you could've just ignored it since it was just Broughden. 

Dur dur dur. My point still stands. It was the beginning of the industry and what was being produced was shit. Hell 75% of what comes out of Hollywood is still shit.
But liking it just because it is old and paying "homage" to it? No. Thats as retarded as music appreciation teachers or music snobs saying you MUST like composer "X" because his music is 300 years old. Well its a 300 year old turd then.
Or a literary teacher saying you MUST read and like Moby Dick because its a "classic." No its a long winded bunch of tripe that should have been condensed down to a short story. Same with War and Peace.

Being old does not equal being good or being tribute worthy.

Don't be an idiot Moby Dick isn't a major part of literature because its a "classic", its a major part of literature because its a damn engaging book with deep moral and psychological issues. Have you read it?

No it really isnt.
Its long winded crap. Reminds me of Stephen King's writing...or that series That Wheel of Time. Quoted from a book agency's website, "Who needs a a monograph on cetacean biology in the middle of a novel?"
It didnt sell even during its time until after Melville's death. The only reason it sells now? Its REQUIRED reading by dumb ass literature teachers who think, "I had to read it, so my students have to read it to!" Its hazing for literature!

[Abagadro]

City Lights.

If you think that is crap, you need to just STFU and never open your mouth about anything ever again.

[stray]

In Broughden's world, no one simply likes a thing. Except him.

[Merusk]

In Broughden's world, no one simply likes a thing. Except him.

In Broughden's world everyone speaks like it's the 20th century and modern writing conventions have always been the norm.

Culture: What you make yogurt from.

[schild]

This thread got fucking weird.

[HaemishM]

Quoted from a book agency's website, "Who needs a a monograph on cetacean biology in the middle of a novel?"

That book agent needs to be slapped, shot and pissed on. Sure, people with the Internet might not need it. 19th century people who have never left their small town and aren't even sure what a fucking whale looks like? Yes, they most certainly do.

You are a fucking moron.

[Broughden]

In Broughden's world, no one simply likes a thing. Except him.

In Broughden's world everyone speaks like it's the 20th century and modern writing conventions have always been the norm.

Culture: What you make yogurt from.

Thats my point. Culture adapts and changes. And what is or should be considered "good" should change with that. Forcing 200 year old music and literature upon students (who arent literature or music history majors) does nothing to improve their overall education especially when most will read the cliff notes rather than the long winded, overly wrought original version.

Seriously...my Music Appreciation class in college? Was ALL classical music. Appreciate it? I wanted to rip my fucking ears off. Why not opera? Or vocal jazz? Or a hundred other styles of music I would have appreciated much much more.

I LOVE reading, but hated Literature classes for the same reason. Teacher says, "You will read X and you will tell me why you liked X in a ten page paper." WTF? I hated X and could hardly bring myself to get half way through the crap. 

[stray]

That's fine if you like those things, dude. Completely different when you describe other people's opinions for themselves, be it one person or what's good for "culture" as a whole.

[Megrim]

In Broughden's world, no one simply likes a thing. Except him.

In Broughden's world everyone speaks like it's the 20th century and modern writing conventions have always been the norm.

Culture: What you make yogurt from.

Thats my point. Culture adapts and changes. And what is or should be considered "good" should change with that. Forcing 200 year old music and literature upon students (who arent literature or music history majors) does nothing to improve their overall education especially when most will read the cliff notes rather than the long winded, overly wrought original version.

Seriously...my Music Appreciation class in college? Was ALL classical music. Appreciate it? I wanted to rip my fucking ears off. Why not opera? Or vocal jazz? Or a hundred other styles of music I would have appreciated much much more.

I LOVE reading, but hated Literature classes for the same reason. Teacher says, "You will read X and you will tell me why you liked X in a ten page paper." WTF? I hated X and could hardly bring myself to get half way through the crap. 

Are you sure you aren't confusing bad teaching practices with teaching people about the valuable things our civilization has developed?

[NowhereMan]

Nah, epic poetry is boring so obviously the Odyssey is a pile of shit. Thankfully nowadays we have films like Troy that have turned crap into quality

[stray]

And I thought I was lowbrow.

[ahoythematey]

In Broughden's world, no one simply likes a thing. Except him.

In Broughden's world everyone speaks like it's the 20th century and modern writing conventions have always been the norm.

Culture: What you make yogurt from.

Thats my point. Culture adapts and changes. And what is or should be considered "good" should change with that. Forcing 200 year old music and literature upon students (who arent literature or music history majors) does nothing to improve their overall education especially when most will read the cliff notes rather than the long winded, overly wrought original version.

Seriously...my Music Appreciation class in college? Was ALL classical music. Appreciate it? I wanted to rip my fucking ears off. Why not opera? Or vocal jazz? Or a hundred other styles of music I would have appreciated much much more.

I LOVE reading, but hated Literature classes for the same reason. Teacher says, "You will read X and you will tell me why you liked X in a ten page paper." WTF? I hated X and could hardly bring myself to get half way through the crap. 

I happen to think people aren't taught to appreciate classical music early enough, and any kid I were to have spawn would definitely receive from me some education on the greats.  The kid may not find Bach or Tchaikovsky to be their favorite thing to listen to, but they damn well will learn to understand its value.

I'm wondering if maybe you feel the same way about art...

[Riggswolfe]

That's fine if you like those things, dude. Completely different when you describe other people's opinions for themselves, be it one person or what's good for "culture" as a whole.

I think Broughden's issue is that this is exactly what his literature teachers did to him. I happen to like Classical Music, or at least appreciate it. I am with Broughden though in that my idea of torture is being forced to read most "classics". Moby Dick may have value in showing the evolution of the novel and it may even have some deep psychological points to make. But it's a boring book to read. Sorry, but it is.

[UnSub]

This thread needs to be brought back on track. (NSFW)

[Broughden]

That's fine if you like those things, dude. Completely different when you describe other people's opinions for themselves, be it one person or what's good for "culture" as a whole.

I think Broughden's issue is that this is exactly what his literature teachers did to him. I happen to like Classical Music, or at least appreciate it. I am with Broughden though in that my idea of torture is being forced to read most "classics". Moby Dick may have value in showing the evolution of the novel and it may even have some deep psychological points to make. But it's a boring book to read. Sorry, but it is.

FUCKING BINGO! 

[stray]

Fucking bingo wut? "Sorry but it is" is Riggs' favorite line. Like he's the pope or some shit.

If you have an opinion, that's fine - even if you disagree. But suck a cock when you start trying to speak for me. 

[schild]

I just arrived in profound town.

Let me get this straight, reading books assigned by profs, etc is torture depending on the book?

No shit? Really? It is empirically impossible for a professor or teacher to pick a book that every student will like. That's why you see stuff like Catcher in the Rye, Moby Dick, Leaves of Grass, Hamlet, etc all thrown into English and Poetry courses. They're all-around good books for what they are, great examples of time and place for the writer, and pretty much the definition of classic. Whether its torture or not is freaking moot. None of them are particularly long, they're all super easy to read, and "your opinion" doesn't really matter - yes, this is a case where, if you voice your opinion, you're an asshole. If you don't like them (that much), take a specialized course like romantic literature or something, then you can read all "those" classics. And if you're in high school, you just need to shut your mouth because odds are you don't know a damn thing about any sort of literature.

Also, don't make points for Broughden. He needs to learn how to make them for himself.

I LOVE reading, but hated Literature classes for the same reason. Teacher says, "You will read X and you will tell me why you liked X in a ten page paper." WTF? I hated X and could hardly bring myself to get half way through the crap.

And you probably sucked at explaning why. God, I can't imagine having to grade your papers in a lit class. You write like a horrible, little weenie.

[Broughden]

And you probably sucked at explaning why. God, I can't imagine having to grade your papers in a lit class. You write like a horrible, little weenie.

How's that writing/journalism job in the electronic gaming field coming?


Oh and...
Yes, because doing it this way (rather than say offering a list of books to choose from and critique, where the student can choose a "classic" they enjoy) seems to be working out so well for the American education system. 

[schild]

And you probably sucked at explaning why. God, I can't imagine having to grade your papers in a lit class. You write like a horrible, little weenie.

How's that writing/journalism job in the electronic gaming field coming?

Way to reach for the stars on that one, joker.

Oh and...
Yes, because doing it this way (rather than say offering a list of books to choose from and critique, where the student can choose a "classic" they enjoy) seems to be working out so well for the American education system.

Straw man.

Edit: Actually, I'll bite, what classics do you enjoy?

[Nebu]

No it really isnt.
Its long winded crap. Reminds me of Stephen King's writing...or that series That Wheel of Time. Quoted from a book agency's website, "Who needs a a monograph on cetacean biology in the middle of a novel?"
It didnt sell even during its time until after Melville's death. The only reason it sells now? Its REQUIRED reading by dumb ass literature teachers who think, "I had to read it, so my students have to read it to!" Its hazing for literature!

First, envision a world without television and radio and you'll see the value of more descriptive stories.  Dickens is very long-winded, but was appreciated due to the artistry inherent in creating descriptive images using only words and imagination.  Second, look at the value found in the undertones and how they survive the passage of time.  Classics are called "classics" often for this reason alone.