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NowhereMan
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Reply #840 on: November 15, 2012, 06:11:21 AM

I've gotta say reading this thread is an inspiration to actually work on increasing my lifts. My deadlift max is about 120kg but my form falls apart after a couple of reps, mostly I think because my grip starts failing badly and it's hard to keep everything in place when I'm aware of the bar rolling out of my fingers. My military press is also really poor, I do it after incline bench and dumbell bench though so I'm not sure if it's form or if my shoulders have already been run a little ragged. Would poor form explain a crappy military press? (Seriously I can manage 30kgs for about 6 reps)

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Nebu
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Reply #841 on: November 15, 2012, 06:54:57 AM

Incline bench is a serious shoulder workout.  You're fatiguing your delts on the inclines.  

I work shoulders and legs on the same day to get the most out of my shoulder workouts.  I military 70kg x 8 reps (barbell) for 5 sets and I'm not a big guy.  If I tried after inclines it would be much lower.  Maybe you just need to change your weekly splits?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #842 on: November 15, 2012, 12:38:50 PM

You all put me to shame.  ACK!  I still can't lift for shit and I feel I should care more than I do.  Apart from my squat which is okay - I think.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?



A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #843 on: November 15, 2012, 10:58:10 PM

I'm not sure of my max clean and press, but I usually do it as a sort of in-between exercise on legs/shoulders day. After several sets of 155 my wrists start to hurt in the same way that they do with front squats, so I have shied away from going much heavier. You motivate me though! Next time I'll give it a go, but I don't expect that I'll just put it up no problem.

There's no one upping here - this thread is a font of motivation!

I have somewhat similar issues with my wrist, mainly because I seem to be mechanically unable to bend my arms and wrists to nearly the degree that is required.  I mean, not even close.  I can basically not do front squats at all.  That said, it seems not to matter nearly as much for cleans & presses...as long as I can still hold the bar in rack position - which I can, despite the bad form - then it doesn't cause me too much problem.  I do get some wrist pain, but it seems to get better over time. 

On the subject of Military Presses:  As Nebu says, inclines hit your front delts really hard, so there will be a natural effect there.  So will the flat benches, but to a slightly lesser degree.  And really, military/shoulder presses are just plain hard.  You use a much higher proportion of delt (front and rear) and a much smaller proportion of pecs (they are still very involved).  As such, you will lift way less than you will on the bench press.  I also find them to be somewhat uncomfortable with a barbell, but that might just be me.  Still, they should always be a staple of your workouts, as they are one of the 5 key lifts.  Not only is it a heavy compound lift, but putting big weights over your head has a way of stimulating the entire body.  Try different variations as well...they all have their advantages.  Seated or Standing Dumbell presses are great because they get rid of the problem of the barbell wanting to be on the same plane as your head and give you the best range of motion.  Push presses are not only a good explosive movement, but they will also allow you to get even heavier weights above your head, which again benefits your whole body.

And yeah - keep shoulder day at least two days away from your chest day if you can.  I do push presses on the same day I down clean & presses and deadlifts.  I then do dumbbell and/or barbell military presses 4 days later together with squats.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
NowhereMan
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Reply #844 on: November 16, 2012, 04:28:54 AM

It's a programme off one of the SA threads that has a pretty good balance of compound lifts with some isolation supplemental stuff. I'm enjoying it and I'm not too worried about not being able to lift heavy on the military presses if it's probably due mostly to wearing myself out on the earlier stuff. I seem to be spending most of my time at the moment getting comfortable with one of the big lifts and then pushing the weight up on one of the others and finding my form going to shit. One of these days I think I might just take everything back a bit and maybe get a couple of sessions with a personal trainer to get the form on everything really down.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
DraconianOne
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Reply #845 on: November 20, 2012, 06:47:27 AM

Right - bit of a long shot this but if you don't ask...

I'm trying to find someone who can spare an hour or so this Saturday at midday in central London. I have a Fitness Instructor test and need a volunteer to demonstrate on after my last one had to cry off. Person needs to be in good health and between 18 - 45 and fairly fit.


Thanks NowhereMan for helping me out on this.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 03:09:03 AM by DraconianOne »

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #846 on: November 27, 2012, 03:24:07 AM

More creatine fueled updates for the last couple of weeks.  My weight has stabilized to around 80kg, which in total is up about 3kg from when I seriously started using the creatine.  I have not at any point in this processes deliberately tried to really devour the calories, just eating slightly above maintenance levels.  In the past two weeks alone:

- As mentioned previously, a new Personal Best in the Clean & Press of 95kg.  I managed the same weight a second time a week later, just to convince myself it was legit.  Too scared to attempt 100kg.  Overall improvement of 10kg since beginning this whole creatine thing.
- New PB in the plain old deadlift of 182.5kg.  Haven't done a trapbar deadlift recently.  Attempted and failed a 190kg deadlift...grip on left hand gives out before I can lock it out.  I will get there.  Overall improvement..about 27.5kg.
- New PB in the flat bench at 120kg.  Overal improvement about...10 to 15 kg, not sure.
- New PB in the incline bench at 115kg.  Overall improvement of about 25kg (!).
- New PB in the squat at 140kg.  Overal improvement...10 to 15kg, not sure.

Three of the five above were achieved whilst under the influence of a serious cold virus last week.  My stamina is fairly considerable at this point as well, which I think may be key to the whole thing....I am not doing a simple 3x5 for any exercise, nor do I have elaborate splits.  I got to the gym and then work the shit out of one or two things.  Lots and lots of sets of heavy weights with low reps, tapering off into lower weights with higher reps.  For example, here is what my last Incline Day looked like:


    Barbell Incline Bench Press:
        55 kg x 6 reps (+65 pts)
        75 kg x 3 reps (+66 pts)
        95 kg x 3 reps (+89 pts)
        105 kg x 1 reps (+71 pts)
        115 kg x 1 reps (+82 pts)
        95 kg x 4 reps (+100 pts)
        95 kg x 3 reps (+89 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        65 kg x 8 reps (+81 pts)
        65 kg x 8 reps (+81 pts)
        65 kg x 10 reps (+84 pts)
        65 kg x 10 reps (+84 pts)
    Machine Bench Press:
        43 kg x 6 reps (+33 pts)
        83 kg x 6 reps (+60 pts)
        123 kg x 6 reps (+100 pts)
        123 kg x 6 reps (+100 pts)
        113 kg x 6 reps (+94 pts)
        113 kg x 6 reps (+94 pts)
        103 kg x 6 reps (+81 pts)
        103 kg x 6 reps (+81 pts)
        93 kg x 6 reps (+70 pts)
        93 kg x 10 reps (+77 pts)
        83 kg x 10 reps (+67 pts)
        83 kg x 10 reps (+67 pts)

I spend literally like an hour or more sitting at that incline station.  I then go to the machine bench (Hammer Strength...not a shitty cable/pulley thing) just to destroy whatever muscle fibers that are left intact.  I remember when I started this whole thing a couple months ago, when the 60kg on the incline bar felt like a chore.  It now seems hilariously light in comparison.

I am starting to draw conclusions from all of this.

- Creatine.  Fucking.  Works.
- Singles, Doubles and Triples are GREAT.  Just do a bunch of single/double rep sets of really fucking heavy weights as top priority.  Worry about additional reps and working sets after you've peaked on those. 
- This may be controversial, but I am finding out that I spend less energy on warming up.  I am no longer concerned with "getting the blood flowing" or any of the other perceived benefits of warming up.  My sole goal now is simply to make sure that I am mechanically sound enough to do the heavy stuff.  Make sure my rotator cuffs are up to doing heavy presses.  Makes sure my lower back is up to a max deadlift attempt.  Etc.  Otherwise, I make sure that my warmup has as little impact on my ability to lift as heavy as possible.
- Major compound lifts only.  Absolutely everything else detracts from this and is a waste of time, and more importantly, energy that should be devoted to your main lifts.  I don't do ab work, I don't do triceps work, I don't do shrugs, lateral raises, or anything else.  The lone exception I make is for my puny little biceps...both because it is a relatively harmless exercise to perform between other sets (non-taxing) and also because genetically speaking my biceps do not "pop" like I wish they would and need extra attention. 
- I will stop making snap judgements about how other people are on the juice.  Because I now suspect some may be looking at me thinking the same thing.
- I still fucking suck at squats.  I am going to work on this.

Sorry if this is all coming across as Cyrrex's Personal Blog - I am eager to share my experiences, and hope that it give others of you ideas you can use.   The main takeaway here is TAKE CREATINE.  And then lift like a mad man.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
DraconianOne
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Reply #847 on: November 27, 2012, 04:13:53 AM

You're warming up the muscles you're going to be using to help you lift better and protect from injury - not sure what's controversial about that!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

How much and how often are you (and Nebu) taking Creatine? I have a tentative plan to start supplementing in the new year with it as I've got a half baked notion to going back to sprinting but my power and speed has definitely been affected by combined factors of age and plenty of distance running over the last few years (although there's a small matter of an ultra I've got my eye on at the end of March...)

Well done on the PBs. I'm surprised that you don't do specific ab work though - is that because you find your core gets enough of a work out from the compound lifts or other reasons?

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #848 on: November 27, 2012, 04:43:46 AM

What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.

On creatine intake:  I am mixing the creatine (both in pre-mixed blends as well as manually mixing it with some blends), so I don't know the exact measurement I am taking...but I would guess it would be about 8 to 10 grams a day?  Maybe a tad more.

On ab work:  Well, there are a few reasons I don't do it.  Number one, the movements themselves are unnatural, and potentially harmful.  They aren't true compound movements and do not have much practical application in terms of strength improvement.  Secondly, and more importantly for me, your abs are primarily stabilizers, not movers.  "Crunching" them together is all well and fine (not) but they are better worked by holding your spine in place while doing things like squats, deadlifts, overhead presses and even pull-ups.  Oh, and the power cleans.  Each of those exercises are better core/ab moves than any isolated ab move.  So ultimately, I work the ever-loving shit out of my abs...just not by doing isolated ab work.  Try holding up 170kg for 5 seconds without getting your abs into it  awesome, for real

Again, if it's not a compound move, it is a waste of time.  The only true exception to that rule is for calf raises, because they are otherwise impossible to work properly.  I make another exception for myself for my puny biceps, but I doubt I should even bother.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
climbjtree
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Reply #849 on: November 27, 2012, 07:07:56 AM

I take 4g of Creatine HCl a day. I'd say do a loading dose of about double that for a 4-5 days, and then you're good to come down after that just to maintain a constant level in your bod.
Nebu
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Reply #850 on: November 27, 2012, 07:13:19 AM

I take 4g of Creatine HCl a day. I'd say do a loading dose of about double that for a 4-5 days, and then you're good to come down after that just to maintain a constant level in your bod.

I strongly urge you to reduce your dose.  Of that 4g, your body is maybe using about 1g and the rest is working your kidneys.  You can save money and your kidneys by buying creatine as the methyl ester which will allow you to take less and absorb more. 

I've been taking 1g creating monohydrate (500mg 2x daily) on off days and 2g (1g 2x daily) on workout days.  It makes me significantly increase my water intake, but I do notice that wonderful 'tightness' that you get from it. 

Also note: a high protein diet requires a significant increase in water as well.  You need to get rid of the ammonia from muscle breakdown as urea which works your urea cycle hard.  I've read cases of people dying from liquid protein diets due to inadequate water intake.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #851 on: November 27, 2012, 09:23:39 AM

What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.

Funnily enough, there was a study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology last year that was titled "Less is more: standard warm-up causes fatigue and less warm-up permits greater cycling power output". One thing most studies agree on is that the benefits of warming-up can be demonstrated but there's no agreement on what a warm-up should be, exactly. Having said that, the one thing a lot of research seems to be indicating is that static stretching in a warm-up may not be beneficial for performance (but you'll find fitness professionals still teaching it because it's still in the course materials).

As for ab core workouts, I don't disagree that the gains you would get from isolated moves would be minimal because you're a conditioned, experienced lifter. I wouldn't recommend someone new to lifting to skip on making sure their postural muscles are strong enough though because their technique will probably suffer for it.

And as for you guys and your creatine doses, I guess tonights task is to dig out research on that too. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Nebu
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Reply #852 on: November 27, 2012, 09:29:26 AM

And as for you guys and your creatine doses, I guess tonights task is to dig out research on that too. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Most literature studies that I'm familiar with have a 20g per day for 5 day loading phase followed by 3-5g per day regiments.  Even in these large doses, the gains are in the 3-5% range in terms of performance.  Of course, individual results will vary.


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #853 on: November 27, 2012, 11:21:16 AM

What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.


As for ab core workouts, I don't disagree that the gains you would get from isolated moves would be minimal because you're a conditioned, experienced lifter. I wouldn't recommend someone new to lifting to skip on making sure their postural muscles are strong enough though because their technique will probably suffer for it.


Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town.   Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #854 on: November 27, 2012, 11:25:00 AM

All most people need to do are 3 exercises.

1) Bench press
2) Deadlift
3) Squats

This would do so much to strengthen their core, that the ancillary muscles would follow. 

The most common mistakes that you see at the gym are poor form, too much arm work, and too high a number of reps.   I workout 30 mins 4x a week in the weight room and I get more benefit than most of the kids I see swinging weights for an hour a day 6x a week.  It's not about volume, it's about quality and intensity. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
RhyssaFireheart
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WWW
Reply #855 on: November 27, 2012, 12:06:35 PM

All most people need to do are 3 exercises.

1) Bench press
2) Deadlift
3) Squats

This would do so much to strengthen their core, that the ancillary muscles would follow. 

The most common mistakes that you see at the gym are poor form, too much arm work, and too high a number of reps.   I workout 30 mins 4x a week in the weight room and I get more benefit than most of the kids I see swinging weights for an hour a day 6x a week.  It's not about volume, it's about quality and intensity. 
So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  My typical workout is 30 mins on the treadmill (usually at or about 2mph, no incline yet) and then I alternate days between upper body and lower body workouts.  I do 2 sets of 10-12 reps with the second set being 5lbs higher than the first set.  I try to make it a challenge and not lift easy weights, but the second set is usually tough.  I try to get to the gym at least twice a week bare minimum, more if life permits.

My biggest problem is that I'm seeing little outward physical change although I can tell there are changes (walking is easier and I can increase the speed, muscles under the fat, that kind of thing) but no change in measurements.  I've fallen off the bandwagon the past couple of weeks but surprisingly, have only gained less than 5lbs back.  Which doesn't make a bit of difference when you're talking about the amount of weight I need to lose.

I need to figure out what is going wrong since I'm not getting any changes.  Yes, muscle weighs more than fat but honestly?  I should be seeing something different. And I don't really think seeing my doctor would be very useful since his response would probably be to just lose weight.  Hate being a female over 40.. it's almost impossible to slim down.

Anyways, any suggestions on different workout techniques to try?  I'm not going to go for those more intense crazy workouts a few of you were talking about upthread.  That stuff is insane and I enjoy living.

Nebu
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Reply #856 on: November 27, 2012, 12:18:37 PM

So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  

Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about training women.  My experience is entirely with training for power or endurance.  Crossfit is about the best way I know to train for both.

Quality: I would define this as working large muscle groups (shoulders, back, chest, butt, thighs, and calves) with proper form.  In my own workouts, I rarely do more than 6-8 reps per set.  Beyond that point I'm really only testing endurance.  If endurance isn't a goal, then I want to focus on higher weight, 4-6 rep sets.  It's all about your specific goal and desired outcome.

Intensity: This is best measured by how terrible you feel while working out.  You should be working your body to a point on the edge of failure.  A good personal trainer can walk this edge without losing their client.  When training for an event, it's not uncommon for me to vomit during a workout due to intensity.  I'm trying to make my body adapt to a new situation.  My body will only adapt if it fails.  Overcoming failure is how your body adjusts to a new workload.  This is the reason that programs like P90x and insanity work.  They force the body to adapt to a new 'normal'.

Set a goal for your workouts and be as specific about this goal as possible.  When I train, I'm doing it with a very specific purpose in mind.  Beginners should set a less specific goal for the first 10 weeks and get more specific each 10 weeks after.  

I know that this is VERY general, but it's a good way to start.  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 12:25:57 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #857 on: November 27, 2012, 01:47:43 PM

Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town. Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   

So chicken and egg: if your postural muscles aren't strong then your form for, say, squat will be poor and you probably won't work them well. Bearing in mind that postural muscles are more than just abs and include ab/adductors, hip flexors, ilipsoas, not to mention lumbar and cervical erector muscles and the deep core muscles like quadratus lumborum.

Essentially, it's going back to one of the fundamental principles of training - start general and work to specific. Doing a squat is a skill that you need to develop, like running or playing tennis. Sure you can walk in off the street and start doing any of them but you need to do them effectively and well, you need to do develop the right strength and skills.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
DraconianOne
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Reply #858 on: November 27, 2012, 02:21:13 PM

So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  My typical workout is 30 mins on the treadmill (usually at or about 2mph, no incline yet) and then I alternate days between upper body and lower body workouts.  I do 2 sets of 10-12 reps with the second set being 5lbs higher than the first set.  I try to make it a challenge and not lift easy weights, but the second set is usually tough.  I try to get to the gym at least twice a week bare minimum, more if life permits.

My biggest problem is that I'm seeing little outward physical change although I can tell there are changes (walking is easier and I can increase the speed, muscles under the fat, that kind of thing) but no change in measurements.  I've fallen off the bandwagon the past couple of weeks but surprisingly, have only gained less than 5lbs back.  Which doesn't make a bit of difference when you're talking about the amount of weight I need to lose.

I need to figure out what is going wrong since I'm not getting any changes.  Yes, muscle weighs more than fat but honestly?  I should be seeing something different. And I don't really think seeing my doctor would be very useful since his response would probably be to just lose weight.  Hate being a female over 40.. it's almost impossible to slim down.

Anyways, any suggestions on different workout techniques to try?  I'm not going to go for those more intense crazy workouts a few of you were talking about upthread.  That stuff is insane and I enjoy living.

Intensity is going to be subjective and the most common way of defining it is as "peceived exertion". When you're working out, try to gauge how you feel on a scale of 1 to 10 - where 1 is very light effort, almost sedentary and 10 is full tilt, all out effort. So if you're walking on the treadmill for 30 mins, how do you feel by the end of it? Was it easy? Could you keep going? Or are you struggling to be able to talk? (If you have a treadmill with HR sensors on the grip, get your HR reading and see what that is.)  Quality is more objective in that when you're exercising, you need to be getting the most benefit out of it - so form, technique and other scary words like that. Mostly you need to make sure that you're not cheating on lifts (so swinging a dumb-bell if you're doing bicep curls) or leaning to the side etc.

Next, are you following a plan of workouts and are you keeping track of what you're doing and how much you're lifting?  If not, try to keep a training diary.

Nebu's right in that goal setting and targets are very important but I'd suggest something different to a 10 week cycle and up it to a 12 week cycle - but split that into 3 x four weeks periods. Set up a plan and stick to it for four weeks. You can progress exercises during that four weeks (like upping the speed of the treadmill, adjusting the incline or add a pound to the weight you're lifting) but at the end, set up a new plan with new exercises - say swap treadmill for the elliptical or stationary bike or move to the resistance machines rather than weights and do that for four weeks.

Working at 2 sets of 12 reps is probably a good starting point for what you're trying to do - you could even up it to 15 reps - but try to keep the rest intervals between sets to not much more than about a minute. I'd also say that if you're adding 5lbs to your second set and doing a full number of reps then your first set is probably not heavy enough. Try to keep the weight the same - if that means upping the weight on the first set and lowering it on the second, so be it.  (Yes, there are benefits to overloading weight like that but at this point, I'd say keep it simple).

I don't recommend doing like Nebu and working out until you vomit at this stage - it's horrible and really not attractive!  why so serious?

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Nebu
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Reply #859 on: November 27, 2012, 03:50:56 PM

There will be no emesis on my account.  I was more using it as an illustration of intensity.  As for the rest, incremental gains are the key. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #860 on: November 28, 2012, 12:24:25 AM

Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town. Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   

So chicken and egg: if your postural muscles aren't strong then your form for, say, squat will be poor and you probably won't work them well. Bearing in mind that postural muscles are more than just abs and include ab/adductors, hip flexors, ilipsoas, not to mention lumbar and cervical erector muscles and the deep core muscles like quadratus lumborum.

Essentially, it's going back to one of the fundamental principles of training - start general and work to specific. Doing a squat is a skill that you need to develop, like running or playing tennis. Sure you can walk in off the street and start doing any of them but you need to do them effectively and well, you need to do develop the right strength and skills.

I am working from the assumption that the vast majority of the population can, with some brief instruction, do a single squat with an empty barbell on their back (even something less than an Olympic barbell if necessary).  The squat is the single best overall exercise for the entire posterior chain.  A bunch of physiologically unnatural isolated movements are a poor substitute for a single weighted squat, even for a beginner.  ESPECIALLY for a beginner.  And while I will agree that it is a skill to be developed, it isn't a particularly hard one to learn.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
DraconianOne
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Reply #861 on: November 28, 2012, 03:05:49 AM

I am working from the assumption that the vast majority of the population can, with some brief instruction, do a single squat with an empty barbell on their back (even something less than an Olympic barbell if necessary). 

That's quite an assumption to make and to be honest, up until not long ago, I probably would have agreed with you but from recent experience, not any more - and I'm talking about not even being able to do body weight squats with good form, not with weights.  Even something that I percieve to be simple, like a lunge, can be a difficult move for absolute beginners because of lack of strength in the glutes or ankles, lack of mobility in the hips and so on.

But this isn't really an argument because I absolutely agree about the benefits of the squats and compound movements in general. I just don't dismiss the utility of isolation moves and don't agree that they're physiologically unnatural or harmful (although I promise to keep an open mind and read any study or research you care to put my way  awesome, for real ). In the same way that you recognise you have an imbalance in your arms, some people are going to have imbalances between their quads/hams and abs/back and they'll need to be developed in isolation to develop balanced strength.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #862 on: November 28, 2012, 03:39:08 AM

I had a feeling you would make that exact rebuttal (which is cool)...my thinking here is something along the lines of "if a person is not healthy enough to do a single squat with an empty bar on their back, then this is not an ordinary, otherwise healthy individual".  Because, you know, he/she wouldn't be.  A healthy human being should be able to do this one time.  My contention is then that such a person would probably benefit more from a serious diet and/or some major calorie burning activities. 

I am not including people here with serious back/knee or other joint issues.  That's another matter.

Natural vs Unnatural...here is what I mean by way of example.  Adductor/Abductor machines, the ones the women can't seem to stay away from.  The movements you have to perform to execute these things are wholly invented by fitness people.  They are not otherwise motions that the human body would naturally make in any other setting or environment.  Unnatural to the extreme.  Same with crunches.  Same with almost all isolated movements (even biceps work).  That isn't to say that they aren't without potential benefit.  What I AM saying, is that they are extremely inefficient, and the only people who really should bother with them overly much are extremely advanced bodybuilders, or people doing specific rehab.  Everyone else will get better results doing the 4 or 5 key compound movements.  Everyone.


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Cyrrex
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Reply #863 on: November 28, 2012, 04:19:19 AM

By the way, I enjoy the discussion and the different POV, so I hope I am not coming across as overly argumentative.  If so, please understand I don't intend to.


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
DraconianOne
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Reply #864 on: November 28, 2012, 05:18:09 AM

Likewise. awesome, for real My own studies (yeah, I'm working towards being "one of those fitness guys" as hinted at above) and experience is making me question a lot of assumptions and beliefs and everything that I/we've ever been taught. I enjoy discussing it because it helps me learn more and will probably help me try new things out.

I had a feeling you would make that exact rebuttal (which is cool)...my thinking here is something along the lines of "if a person is not healthy enough to do a single squat with an empty bar on their back, then this is not an ordinary, otherwise healthy individual".  Because, you know, he/she wouldn't be.  A healthy human being should be able to do this one time.  My contention is then that such a person would probably benefit more from a serious diet and/or some major calorie burning activities.

I agree with you but here are some figures:

In 2011, the WHO stated that "Physical inactivity is the fourth leading risk factor for all global deaths". (They include in this stats related to deaths from coronary heart disease, type 2 diabetes and breast/colon cancer)

A study published in July this year showed that 31% of the worlds adult population are classed as inactive. In countries like the US and UK, that figure is as high as 43%.


In a 2011 NHS study in the UK
, 25% of adults in the UK were classed as obese, 25% of adults said they did regular exercise and 20% of adults said they had maybe done one single 20 minute walk - if that - in the previous year.

I don't know about you, but I think these numbers are horrifying. Also, if you squint and generalize a lot, you could probably wangle this to mean that only 1 in 4 people would actually be healthy enough to do a single squat. ACK!  (Okay, maybe it's 1 in 4 that can't - but even so...!)



A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #865 on: November 28, 2012, 05:29:00 AM

Yeah, that's horrifying for sure.  Let's at least agree that I not talking about those people.  I would tend to think it comes out closer to 1 in 4...but who knows?

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #866 on: November 28, 2012, 05:30:09 AM

I'm in the process of re-tooling part of my lab to do nutritional research, so any and all debates are welcome.  I'm particularly looking for gaps in the current literature to see what I can add to existing knowledge.  If anyone here wants to discuss nutrition, metabolic biochemistry, or supplementation, I'd enjoy the debate.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #867 on: November 28, 2012, 05:46:46 AM

I have some very specific areas of nutrition that I'm interested in and that's regards protein intake during endurance events but not sure whether that's part of your remit or not.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Nebu
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Reply #868 on: November 28, 2012, 07:21:44 AM

I have some very specific areas of nutrition that I'm interested in and that's regards protein intake during endurance events but not sure whether that's part of your remit or not.

I'll be happy to provide opinions, but most of the processes I'm looking at are related to anabolic processes. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #869 on: November 28, 2012, 07:46:17 AM

I am also curious in talking more on the subject of the supposed Nitric Oxide effect and L-Arginine (and not as it relates to improved boners, Nebu, get your mind out of the gutter).  Also the effect of Caffeine on training.

And relevant to the above, I am experimenting with some different creatine mixes.  A new flavor of NO Xplode (blue raspberry, and not the 2.0 version with the extra extra caffeine), as well as Dymatize Xpand (Xtreme Pump edition, grape flavored).  The Dymatize is supposed to be similar to the Xplode, but with more creatine.  First impression:  The Dymatize tastes waaaaaaaay better.  Both the Xplode products I have tried taste like sweaty butthole, or at least how I image that might taste.  The Dymatize is actually palatable.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #870 on: November 28, 2012, 10:16:18 AM

Regarding protein intake during exertion, I don't really see the point unless you're running an ultramarathon.  During exertion, your body is primarily craving glucose.  Protein is an inefficient fuel source and you're certainly not going to be doing much muscle repair during exercise.  The only purpose that I could see for protein would be to shuttle NH3 away from muscle to be processed in the liver (urea cycle).  You're producing plenty of pyruvate from the anaerobic burning of glucose in muscle and that pyruvate can easily be converted to alanine to shuttle the NH3.  Perhaps some B3 would be helpful for keeping your glycolysis running without the production of lactate.

Protein during a workout makes no sense to me.  You won't digest it because you're sympathetic.  You won't use it for repairs because you're catabolic.  Seems like protein would just create an extra BUN load. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #871 on: November 28, 2012, 12:25:27 PM

Regarding protein intake during exertion, I don't really see the point unless you're running an ultramarathon. 

That's really what I meant. I did a 100 mile mountain race in the summer and took a load of recovery powder (2 parts maltodextrin to 1 part whey powder) to supplement my usual jelly baby craving. This was based on some old research that indicated that protein can make up to 10% of energy sources in exercise over 5 hours. What I don't know and haven't really been able to find out (because I'm not asking the question in the right way?) is whether this protein has to come from breaking down the muscle or if ingested protein will do.  Plus there's the whole thing about whether muscle damage will be offset by taking in additional protein during an ultra or not.

All I can say is that it didn't hinder my performance and I finished comfortably (well, relatively comfortably  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?)

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Nebu
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Reply #872 on: November 28, 2012, 12:48:22 PM

I think what you're reading is that you'll burn through all of your glycogen stores during the race and then your body will begin to catabolize fat/muscle for fuel.  If it were me, I'd just eat a lot of simple carbs while racing and then eat protein and carb near the finish.  The carbs would give you a ready fuel source and keep you from catabolizing so much muscle if you deplete your glycogen.  The protein near completion will increase your serum protein levels which, with the glucose will help you start repairing immediately after you rest. 

This is all hypothetical mind you.  We should look for some literature on ultramarathoners and see what the empirical data suggest. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #873 on: November 29, 2012, 10:30:31 AM

I decided to switch up my routine a tiny bit today.  Started with clean & presses (I ordinarily always do them after deadlifts on the weekend and am a bit worn before I even start).  Decided to attempt 100kg after a bit of warming up, and I FUCKING SUCCEEDED.  I might have 105 in me.  Might.  I held it locked out over my head for about the count of five, just fucking because.  1.25 times my body weight, over my damn head.  So psyched.

Only another 170 kg or so up to the world record.  Ohhhhh, I see.  I should make it there in about 4 trillion weeks.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
climbjtree
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Reply #874 on: November 30, 2012, 10:03:21 PM

That's badass dude! I've been working on my cleans, but my form is so terrible that I can't get above 185 lbs. The issue is that I end up doing a lot of pulling with my arms and end up smoking myself... guess I'll figure out the technique someday but I feel like I'm just doing the wrong thing over and over. All the reading in the world doesn't substitute for a good coach!

I've been working the hell out of squats and deadlifts, and my deadlift is still 30 lbs less than my squat. Lame, right?

Anyway, motivational YAAAARGH picture taken a few days ago:

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