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Author Topic: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)  (Read 477150 times)
DraconianOne
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Reply #525 on: October 24, 2011, 01:12:39 PM

Yeah, I've noticed that about the quests and the achievements. I'll have to reign in my achiever tendencies so as not to decide to aim to be able to bench press my own weight or whatever it is. It's a tempting goal to work to but I absolutely do not need to do it. The sub 6 minute mile, however, is another story!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I'll make you a deal.  I'll bench your body weight and you run the sub 6 mile for me.  We can powerlevel each other!

Done!  awesome, for real

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #526 on: October 24, 2011, 10:21:15 PM

I'm pretty sure that's against the EULA! 

The achievements appear to be generally good ones, depending one what your specific goals are.  The weightlifting ones are perfectly valid, for example...being able to bench your body weight, or deadlift 1.5 times your wait (et.c) are pretty normal goals people set for themselves.  The weirdness I was referring to was more in some of the "quests" themselves...such as the ones that require you to do ten sets of something in a single week.  I deliberately try to avoid stuff like that for the most part, as it can actually be counter-productive to making actual progress.

But whatever.  It's still a good idea. 

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #527 on: October 24, 2011, 10:29:28 PM

German volume training would take care of that.  You do 10 sets of 10 reps for a single exercise to get a complete breakdown of the associated muscle.  It's great for getting gains when you've plateaued. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #528 on: October 30, 2011, 11:39:27 PM

German volume training would take care of that.  You do 10 sets of 10 reps for a single exercise to get a complete breakdown of the associated muscle.  It's great for getting gains when you've plateaued. 

That's an interesting looking program, I might have to try it.  My comments on the counter-productiveness of 10 sets a weeks was more thinking about the people who spend every session on the bench press.  I.e. 5 sets on Monday, 5 sets on Tuesday, 5 sets on Wednesday, etc., for the whole damn week.  This GVT thing makes actual sense, because it still has a sensible split. 

Meanwhile, I was able to perform squats yesterday for the first time in about a year-and-a-half!  I probably mentioned earlier in this thread that I have had a fairly significant bulging/herniated disc in my L5, and injury that dates back to spring of 2010  (ironically caused by deadlifts, in that I've since been back to doing deads just fine, but have had to stay away from the squat rack).  I've been noticing lately that I have been in significantly less pain than usual through the course of an average day, so I decided to try some relatively light squats.  I was surprised to find out that I could do them pain free.  Kept the max weight fairly low (about 210 x5), as I figure I need to be careful...and since my legs are girlishly weak from lack of squats.

Still, as much as I hate actually performing squats, I am thrilled.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Cyrrex
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Reply #529 on: October 31, 2011, 01:23:19 AM

Nebu - I'm looking more into that GVT link you posted....it is potentially very useful for me, because I have have definitely hit a few plateaus that I want to break through.  I have a question for you (assuming you've tried the routine);  while it says that it is a 10x10 routine that aims for 100 total reps, it also gives the conflicting message that you should "keep pushing out the extra reps"...and then it goes back to saying how you shouldn't worry about the easy first few sets, because you'll be begging for your mama by the later sets.  Bunch of conflicting things.  Basically, then, I wonder about how many reps I should really be attempting, especially for the first few sets.  I mean, at 50-60% of 1RM, it would be easy to exceed 10 reps early on...should you do so?  It seems you would potentially overload the front of the workout at the expense of the back end.

If in doubt, I think I would stick to doing exactly 10 reps every time.  Let me know what you think.  I think I am going to give this a whirl.  I'm a little bit scared, I don't mind saying.


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
NowhereMan
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Reply #530 on: October 31, 2011, 02:15:43 AM

I think that article is saying you should be aiming for 100 reps but if you can't do that you should be doing as many as possible. I'd guess you leave the early sets on 10 reps for a good warm up that doesn't overtax you and then be trying for 10 reps on the final few sets. If you can manage it then next time you up the final weight by 5lbs and do that until you manage 100 reps with that weight.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Cyrrex
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Reply #531 on: October 31, 2011, 03:01:15 AM

That sounds like a good way of reading it, thanks.  I'll give chest, shoulders and triceps a go today and let you guys know how much I hate Nebu tomorrow.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #532 on: October 31, 2011, 05:14:18 AM

I think that article is saying you should be aiming for 100 reps but if you can't do that you should be doing as many as possible. I'd guess you leave the early sets on 10 reps for a good warm up that doesn't overtax you and then be trying for 10 reps on the final few sets. If you can manage it then next time you up the final weight by 5lbs and do that until you manage 100 reps with that weight.

This.  The whole point of GVT is to completely obliterate all muscle fibers in the group involved.  You want to pick your weight so that you can do 10 reps pretty well for the first 5 sets.  By set 6, you'll start to feel the damage.  By set 9, you should be lucky to do 8 reps.  If you can crank out 100 reps, then add some weight the next week. 

You can get away with a 3-per-week using GVT. 
Mon: Chest/back supersets
Wed: Legs (focused work on quads/gluts)
Fri: Shoulders/Arm supersets

This kind of workout requires more rest than normal.  I work out 4-5 days a week and find that MWF destroys me. 

Hope that helps.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #533 on: October 31, 2011, 05:34:16 AM

So here's what I'm thinking:

Mon: Barbell bench press, Sitting Dumbbell shoulder presses, Skullcrushers
Weds: Pendlay Rows, Close gripped Lat pulldowns, preacher curls, ab machine
Fri: Squats, Leg Curls, calf raises

Half tempted to mix in Deadlifts somewhere, but all indications point to it being a bad idea. 

When I think of the 50-60% of the 1RM I have to use...man, it just doesn't sound hard.  I think I might be in for a rude surprise.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Nebu
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Reply #534 on: October 31, 2011, 05:38:56 AM

I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I'm starting a new GVT today.  I'm going to do 6-10 weeks and then doing crossfit for a couple of months.  I'll try to post updates. 


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DraconianOne
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Reply #535 on: October 31, 2011, 10:04:05 AM

I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I'm starting a new GVT today.  I'm going to do 6-10 weeks and then doing crossfit for a couple of months.  I'll try to post updates. 



I'm still thinking of doing some Crossfit. I sort of already am but in my own ubiquitous way and probably nowhere near as hardcore as the actual thing. Will be interested to know how you get on.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Nebu
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Reply #536 on: October 31, 2011, 11:16:41 AM

I'm still thinking of doing some Crossfit. I sort of already am but in my own ubiquitous way and probably nowhere near as hardcore as the actual thing. Will be interested to know how you get on.

I'm dreading it to be honest.  While I'm pretty fit for lifting, I'm in bad aerobic condition.  I have a tough time running 3 miles in under 25 mins, but attribute it to being 30 lbs over my normal running weight.  I'm at a solid 205 lbs now (at 6' tall).  When I'm in my best aerobic condition, I'm much closer to 175 or so.  I just bought myself a power tower to help me get some of my mass off and sculpt to a more natural build.  

I'll keep you guys posted after New Years.  Of course, I'm open to hearing about the programs you guys are on.  Talk me out of crossfit, I beg you!

I forgot to add: GNC has these things for buy 1 get the 2nd 50% off.  I love these things.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 11:22:29 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Cyrrex
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Reply #537 on: November 01, 2011, 12:07:14 AM

I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I was essentially just going after pretty much the exact program that was laid out in the article.  At any rate...

GVT Day 1:  Yeah, so the program is tough.  One of the harder parts of it for me is holding to the 60 - 90 second rest period between sets.  I don't usually time myself, and tend to take it fairly relaxed between sets, so I found that speeding up the pace was a bit of a challenge.  Sometimes you just don't quite feel ready to start that next set, but I forced myself anyway.

Start off with the barbell bench presses.  Wasn't really sure how much weight to use (not really sure what my 1RM is), so I went with 55 kg to be a bit on the conservative side.  It was a bit more challenging than I thought it would be, but I did manage to crank out all 100 reps by the end of the last set.  Was glad to be done with it.  In hindsight, I should have put a little more weight on the bar...will definitely do 60kg next week.  I just didn't struggle as much as I probably should have through the last few sets.

Next up, seated dumbell shoulder presses.  This is usually right in my wheel house, but my arms are already feeling a bit rubbery after all the bench presses.  Start off with 18kg per hand, which is still a bit on the light side for me.  Do three sets with that, and then move up to 20 kg per hand.  That's better, but ultimately probably still not quite enough.  I'm not loving life, but I do manage to crank out every last rep in relatively good shape.  Arms are rubbery, and can definitely tell that I have had a different kind of workout today.  Probably need to try 22kg per hand next week, because the challenge just wasn't quite enough for the last three sets...don't get me wrong, they sucked - but there was never any doubt in my mind that I would push them out.

Decided to go against the skullcrushers, because my arms are rubbery enough at this point that I genuinely feared I might end up with a broken nose if I tried them.  I did, however, still have something left in the tank, so like the article said I should, I kept pushing.  Chose simple cable triceps pushdowns.  Tried 25kg on the first set, but had to bump it down to 20kg from the second onwards, because while I seem to have plenty of endurance left, my power is just gone.  Manage to push out all 100 reps without too much trouble.

The day after.  I am not sore.  I can tell my arms are in a clearly weakened state (still quite rubbery), but I don't have any DOMS going on at all.  That's fine, I guess...I usually only ever get sore after I take a week or two off from lifting, or if I start an exercise I haven't tried in a while.  Still, I was expecting some amount of pain.  I already know that I need to increase weight a little both on the bench and the shoulders, so maybe that will help.  I need to get closer to failing these lifts.

Wednesday will be Pull day.  Not too worried about that, because, well....I like pulling?  Friday scares the bejeesus out of me.  That's going to hurt (because you'll remember from earlier that I am just getting back to the squats), and I like be able to walk like normal.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
DraconianOne
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Reply #538 on: November 01, 2011, 03:38:09 AM

I have a tough time running 3 miles in under 25 mins, but attribute it to being 30 lbs over my normal running weight.  I'm at a solid 205 lbs now (at 6' tall).

Yeah, you keep using that as an excuse. I haven't had the heart previously to tell you that I'm 6'2" and 200lbs (down from nearly 225 at the beginning of the year) Bet your body fat % is half mine too! why so serious?


A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Cyrrex
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Reply #539 on: November 01, 2011, 04:20:43 AM

Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot. 

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
DraconianOne
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Reply #540 on: November 01, 2011, 06:01:43 AM

Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot. 

True. Those couple of years or so make all the difference.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Merusk
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Reply #541 on: November 01, 2011, 07:02:05 AM

Neb's previously mentioned his 6-pack.  His body fat % is probably pretty damn low for a guy half MY age, never mind his own.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Nebu
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Reply #542 on: November 01, 2011, 07:10:25 AM

Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot.  

It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  I've been on about 1200 Cal the past two weeks and it's making me REALLY crabby.  

Cyrrex: You should be fine today.  Tomorrow is when I feel it the most, but my recovery times tend to be a bit on the long side.  I spent Monday lunch doing chest/back and started with 155lb bench presses (barbell) and 132 lb narrow grip lat seated rows as a superset (crank out 10 bench presses and immediately do 10 seated rows, then take 60-90s rest).  I started to fail around 8 reps on bench at my 6th set.  By the 10th set, I could barely muster 6 reps.  I'm fine with this.  

My evening workout is usually a 3 mile run followed by naturals.  I do pushups (flat and incline), vertical knee raises, inclined situps with a medicine ball on my head, dips, wide and narrow grip pullups.  I try to do 3 sets of everything, though today I could barely do my wide grip pullups due to my lunch workout.  

Edit: I hate to admit it, but I've recently turned to thermogenics to help me cut some weight I picked up when my GF of two years dumped me.  For those of you considering thermogenics, I've found OxyElite pro to be about the best of the lot with Lipo6 to be a close second.  Hydroxycut is worthless.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 07:22:54 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
K9
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Reply #543 on: November 01, 2011, 08:05:13 AM

I'm shifting back to powerlifting for the winter I think. I have hardly benched or deadlifted all summer and I want to get back to heavy lifts. On the up side, I can max out hangcleans at my bodyweight (90kg) and I managed 3x60kg hang snatch the other day. I'm not sure how to balance olympic lifts with power lifts with bodyweight stuff (that I have been weaving in and out of since the start of the year). I don't have a chain belt so I'm not really going anywhere with my dips and chins now. I need to have a rethink about what my goals are I guess.

I'll keep you guys posted after New Years.  Of course, I'm open to hearing about the programs you guys are on.  Talk me out of crossfit, I beg you!

KIP ALL THE THINGS!  why so serious?

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system. It probably depends on your goals though, if you are an all-out type of person then Crossfit will probably reap you some benefits, but then if you are that type of person you'd probably do just as well on any sufficiently interesting programme.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
DraconianOne
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Reply #544 on: November 01, 2011, 09:09:23 AM

It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  

Maybe a few more than a couple of years then! ;)

The closest I get to taking thermogenics is a liberal application of chilis in most meals. It has the bonus side effect of meaning that my wife won't eat any meals I make so I can make a huge batch of very hot chili and know it won't get eaten before I get home.

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system.

Could you elaborate a bit on this - particularly about what you consider "unstructured voodoo" and why you don't think it's efficient?

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Minvaren
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Reply #545 on: November 01, 2011, 11:00:30 AM

Thanks to everyone for the shoe talk a few pages back.  Got a good pair of running shoes last week, and man does it make a difference.   awesome, for real

Now to find some work shoes that give the same support...

"There are many things of which a wise man might wish to remain ignorant." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Cyrrex
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Reply #546 on: November 01, 2011, 11:35:41 PM

Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot.  

Cyrrex: You should be fine today.  Tomorrow is when I feel it the most, but my recovery times tend to be a bit on the long side.  I spent Monday lunch doing chest/back and started with 155lb bench presses (barbell) and 132 lb narrow grip lat seated rows as a superset (crank out 10 bench presses and immediately do 10 seated rows, then take 60-90s rest).  I started to fail around 8 reps on bench at my 6th set.  By the 10th set, I could barely muster 6 reps.  I'm fine with this.  


No pain whatsoever.  For now I will blame it on a combination of already being in good lifting shape, and also due to underestimating myself and not lifting heavy enough.  Like I said, I wasn't really in danger of failing reps.  I probably underestimated my 1RMs a little bit, and then I took 50% of that to stay conservative.  My puny 125 pound benches could have easily been 160 pound lifts if I had calculated more aggressively.

Even so, I'm not going to go too far to the other extreme.  I will add 10 pounds or so to the bar and see what happens next week.  And I'm still quite sure leg day is going to kill me.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Cyrrex
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Reply #547 on: November 02, 2011, 11:50:04 PM

GVT Lifting Day 2 - Back, Biceps and Abs:

Did my first "pull" day yesterday.  Not feelling sore at all, but once again I can feel that my arms are fatigued and weak.  Whole workout was harder than I expected, and I find that it takes a bit of mental fortitude to get through every last set.  Tried to go with a 70 second rest between sets.

Close-Grip Pulldowns:  Decided to go with 75kg, based on a theoretical 1RM of 120kg (machine only goes up to 100, so I'm guessing a little).  Seems like a pretty good weight.  My lats and arms are fairly well burning by the last couple of reps in the last couple of sets, but I manage to get through them okay.  I will probably try 80kg next week.

Pendlay Barbell Rows:  Started with 40kg, based on a 1RM 75kg.  I probably went too conservative with the weight, but I find Pendlay Rows to be so awkward that I decided to keep it a bit on the low side until I can get a little bit more solid form.  Will probably go up to 45kg next week.  Even so, my arms are getting very weary by the last two sets.  I can barely crank out the final rep in 8, 9 and 10, but I manage it.  This exercise also seems to make me more arm weary than anything else, and I can feel almost nothing in my back. 

Crunches:  Did 30 simple sets between exercises, just to kill time and rest.  Didn't really plan on doing any major abs work anyway, as the squats on Friday will hit those well enough.

Seated Cable Rows:  Because of the lack of impact on my back from the Pendlays, I decided to add a 10x10 of Rows to my workout.  Believe me, at this point in the workout, that was no light decision to make.  My arms are fucking tired, and I'd just as soon curl up in a ball and weep for a while.  Nonetheless, I press on.  Set the machine to 45kg, which would ordinarily be a bit too low, but for this workout I was genuinely worried about being able to complete 10 sets.  It ended up being spot on.  I finished all 100 reps, but holy fuck the last 2 reps in the last 8 sets were tough.  I wanted to go home after the second set.  Damn are my arms tired.

Barbell Curls:  At this point in the workout, I really could have just called it a day.  My biceps are basically numb.  Still, I have a tiny bit left in the tank.  I am under no illusion that I will get more than about 3 sets of 10 here, even at a low weight.  I put 30kg on the bar (probably more like 27kg...no idea how much the curl bar here actually weighs).  God damn.  I somehow manage to crank out 2 sets, but that is IT.  This curl bar can go fuck itself for all I care.

Can't wait for Friday  swamp poop

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #548 on: November 06, 2011, 06:21:18 PM

Since this the general workout thread, an update for myself; I decided after my shitty 5k that I really need to work on a more rounded exercise and that climbing, while fun, ain't doing it. Time to gain some muscle.

So, I'm hitting the gym with my roommate and his coworker mon-thurs and then climbing at some point on the weekend, generally Sat. I'm also increasing my intake with 1-2 350 cal ensure shakes per day plus a single protein shake since I can't easily increase my per-meal consumption or my number of meals. I hope to gain quite a bit of muscle though I'm not willing to strip out the occasional weekend beer drink and do the diet requirements for the Nebu-style abs.

I do whatever they tell me to do, which is generally 40 minutes of cardio (15 on leg day) Treadmill/Row machine/Eliptical/Stairclimber then 2 sets of 12 reps of each, weighted to failure on the end of the 2nd set. Roughly, Monday = Upper back, Tues = Legs/Lower Back, Wed = Arms, Thurs = core. Workouts look something like this, but are changed up every week, I think my roommate's coworker has a program that spits out workouts or something:

Leg Press
Leg Extension
Leg Curl
Dumbbell Lunges
Abductors
45 Calf Raises (flat to toes)
Decline Sit Up
Seated Calf raises (flat to dropped)
45 calf press (flat to heel)
Medicine Ball Sit Up
Twisting Sit Up

I'm about 3 weeks in. I was "waking up in the middle of the night" sore the first week. Now, it's just unpleasant. Still far away from the traditional "Bench 1.5x weight" and other traditional measures; I am much stronger in some muscles than others due to climbing and some things in particular like my chest have a ways to go.

Ultimately, I would like not only to bench 1.5% body weight but also complete an actual pullup-to-dip "mantle", something I have always wanted to be able to do. Fuck running, though. I feel like I gave it the college try. I still hate it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 07:17:51 PM by bhodi »
MuffinMan
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Reply #549 on: November 06, 2011, 06:44:18 PM

I'm confused by this 1.5% body weight bench. Should that be 150%?

I'm very mysterious when I'm inside you.
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #550 on: November 06, 2011, 07:17:33 PM

1.5x I meant. Obviously! Long week...
Cyrrex
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Reply #551 on: November 07, 2011, 12:28:10 AM

....(bhodi's routine)...

Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.  It's also too ab centric, especially when you consider doing abs in isolation isn't terribly necessary to begin with.  And then he changes it every week and mixes in loads and loads of cardio?  It's a bit too scattershot and unfocused, IMO.  The guys who workout like this may be in relatively good shape, but they never improve anything.

If you are really looking to put on muscle, there are far more efficient (and well known) methods.  Your first order of business is to go tell your roommate's co-worker to go workout with the other women.  awesome, for real  Second, simplify and narrow down your workout using the following lifts:

Squats
Deadlifts
Bench Press (any incline/decline dumb/barbell variation)
Overhead presses (standing/seated dumb/barbell
Bent over or Pendlay rows - a good seated cable row would be okay as well
Pull/chin-ups or a good cable lat pulldown machine

And that is basically all you need to get a real solid base going.  Any ab, biceps, triceps, calves, etc., is basically superfluous in the beginning and only really need be done in moderation and only if you have something left in the tank after doing the above (i.e. always do them last or not at all).  You want to focus on the difficult compound lifts in the beginning.  Find a good split that divides your workout over a week into an intelligent split (i.e. only legs on leg day, etc.).  Unless you are specifically trying to improve your cardio, you should only do enough to maintain your current level - and you can do that with very little.  If you ARE trying to improve your cardio at the same time, then be aware that you are potentially working at cross purposes.  It is more efficient to focus on one thing or the other.  If you want to build muscle, you have to add bunches of extra calories, and doing too much cardio will just eat into that.

In short, go find a good 5x5 strength program that incorporates the above lifts.  That is a fantastic way to get started, and I am very much speaking from experience.

One last piece of advice:  Have a goal or two that you want to reach.  A long term one (for example, my long term one is to look like one of the cast of 300), and a short term one (I am still working towards that damn 40kg per hand dumbell shoulder press).  It will help you focus and plan better, I have found.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Cyrrex
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Reply #552 on: November 07, 2011, 12:41:47 AM

GVT Lifting Day 3 - The Dreaded Leg Day

Three days later, and my quads are still stinging a bit.  At least I can walk straight now, which is more than I could say for yesterday.

The squats were a bitch.  Only 65kg on the bar, I was practically laughing at how simple they were for the first 3 or 4 sets.  By the 10th rep of the 10th set, I wanted to barf until death took me.  The squats practically melted my face off.  Much of this is simply because I am out of squatting condition.  Despite the pain, which honestly wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting, I will put on at least 5kg more next week.

But damn, my legs were wobbly afterwards.  I'll not even bother to discuss the leg curls and calf raises I followed up with, because they were trivial in comparison.  Hilariously, the gym I work out at decided to put five flights of stairs down to the changing room, and boy was that fun to negotiate when you are having an out-of-body experience.  And of course, every hot chick in the gym decides at that time to come up the stairs in the other direction, so I have to do my damnest to appear like someone didn't completely remove both my femurs.

Even still, Monday has rolled around again, so I'll be hitting chest and shoulders for the second time and looking forward to it.  Should be interesting to see if I can handle bumping up the weight from last week.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
bhodi
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Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #553 on: November 07, 2011, 07:22:19 AM

Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.
Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but that's a single leg day workout last week, those aren't all the exercises I'm doing all week. The other days are similarly focused and are, as such, completely different. Squats are mixed in there on leg days, we didn't do squats that week. We do bench & overhead presses, rows, pullups on mondays. I don't have the full list because it changes up every week and I didn't ever get it written. The roommate's coworker is kind of a meathead so he's got all the bases covered. We're also doing about 70% barbell/dumbell so I'm also not just using isolation machines.

I completely agree on the cardio, but since I'm working with others the only option is to either show up late (which I do sometimes) or sit and wait for them to be done. I haven't decided how I want to handle it, I'm still in the adjustment phase, as I'm only 3 weeks in. I'm not even really keeping track of the weight right now, once I get a good baseline I'll start setting goals.


Go Cyrrex! The first week is the worst.
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #554 on: November 07, 2011, 08:45:34 AM

It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  I've been on about 1200 Cal the past two weeks and it's making me REALLY crabby.  
I'm kinda pissed because this summer my normal outdoor chores didn't drop my little winter paunch (41 this year). First time that happened excepting a couple years when I was drinking heavy in the 90s. Compounded by not hiking this past summer (which I'm pretty upset about, but pre-marital bliss is important) and an old injury leading my doc to tell me to lay off the benchwork I would do in the past when the summer work didn't quite accomplish the whole task. I'm up about 15 lbs over where I normally am this time of year!

I might have to actually pay attention to diet and exercise soon, dernit. That or chop more wood! :) I think the Fiskars axe is actually slowing down my fat loss, because I do so much less work with the superior tool, the crappy maul I used to use was like wrestling a mule.
Cyrrex
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Reply #555 on: November 07, 2011, 09:37:25 AM

bleh, double post ftw.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:51:47 AM by Cyrrex »

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Cyrrex
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Posts: 10603


Reply #556 on: November 07, 2011, 09:51:10 AM

Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.
Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but that's a single leg day workout last week, those aren't all the exercises I'm doing all week. The other days are similarly focused and are, as such, completely different. Squats are mixed in there on leg days, we didn't do squats that week. We do bench & overhead presses, rows, pullups on mondays. I don't have the full list because it changes up every week and I didn't ever get it written. The roommate's coworker is kind of a meathead so he's got all the bases covered. We're also doing about 70% barbell/dumbell so I'm also not just using isolation machines.

I completely agree on the cardio, but since I'm working with others the only option is to either show up late (which I do sometimes) or sit and wait for them to be done. I haven't decided how I want to handle it, I'm still in the adjustment phase, as I'm only 3 weeks in. I'm not even really keeping track of the weight right now, once I get a good baseline I'll start setting goals.


Go Cyrrex! The first week is the worst.

Heh, I'm pretty experienced with lifting at this point, so my first week issues are not normal first week issues.  The pain is manageable.  The workout itself, however, is a motherfucker.  I quite literally want my mommy.  You know when you reach that last set on the bench where you just feel like you couldn't possibly do more?  Just do 5 more sets just like that, complete with mounting pain and weariness.  Then switch to shoulder presses and repeat.  Jesus H. Criminy.

Your clarification of the routine makes more sense.  Not total sense, mind you, just more. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?  Is that leg day or core day?

It still seems a bit scattershot to me, and if you are relatively new to strength training or bodybuilding (which are NOT the same thing) then it is probably too many exercises and not enough focus.  At least, if that single day routine is anything to judge by.  I'd be curious to hear whatever else meathead has you doing on other days, especially if you are trying to cram in a shitload of cardio on top of it.

What I said further above still holds true.  Best thing you can do early on is to find a good 5x5 program incorporating the above (and only the above) lifts.  Dead serious.  If you did one of those programs while your roomie and his co-worker did theirs, I guarantee that you would FLY past them.  If you are interested in giving it a go, just speak up...pretty easy to hook you up with a program tailored just for you.  You just need a power rack (safety bars), motivation and a willingness to eat.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:54:47 AM by Cyrrex »

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
K9
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Reply #557 on: November 07, 2011, 09:56:17 AM

I have to agree with Cyrrex, that schedule seems overly complex and involved. Unless you are a body builder type you really don't need to be doing that many different types of isolation lift. Squats alone could replace the first five exercises on your leg day. More sets of fewer exercises if better I find, if nothing else than for the reasont hat you often need a set or two to get your mind set and your form down, so if you only do a set or two you probably aren't through your warm-up stage and at the point where you are pushing yourself for benefit.

an actual pullup-to-dip "mantle", something I have always wanted to be able to do. Fuck running, though. I feel like I gave it the college try. I still hate it.

do you mean a muscle-up?

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system.

Could you elaborate a bit on this - particularly about what you consider "unstructured voodoo" and why you don't think it's efficient?

Sorry for not replying to this sooner, I missed it somehow. My main issue with CrossFit is that it trys to take a jumble of ideas from many different fitness regimes, and throws them all together without any particular logic. The 'Workout of the Day' (WOD) is the prime example of this. For example today's WOD is:

Code:
Three rounds for time of:
30 Wallball shots, 20 pound ball (10.5 foot target)
75 pound Squat snatches, 30 reps (movement initiates with barbell below the knees)

The two prior to this are

Code:
For time:
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 20 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 15 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 10 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 5 reps

and

Code:
For time:
25 GHD sit-ups
1 Muscle-up
20 GHD sit-ups
2 Muscle-ups
15 GHD sit-ups
3 Muscle-ups
10 GHD sit-ups
4 Muscle-ups
5 GHD sit-ups
5 Muscle-ups

If you follow this to the letter, you are doing intense exercise for sure, but it doesn't follow any particular direction other than towards ever-greater intensity. Other exercises which mix things like cleans and sprints, or chinups and boxjumps just all seem to me to be a bit arbitrary. Then there is the culture of doing everything to failure, and the Crossfit mascots "Pukey the Clown" and "Uncle Rhabdo" which do not emphasise health exercise in my mind.

My feeling isn't that CrossFit is ineffective, anyone doing the stuff CrossFit sugegsts, with the intensity encouraged will get fitter and stronger. However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns; and if all you do is go to a crossfit gym and do snatches, squats and ring pull-ups you're not really doing CrossFit. Crossfit is the WODs, it is pushing yourself to breaking point, and those don't make tons of sense to me.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
DraconianOne
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Posts: 2905


Reply #558 on: November 07, 2011, 10:55:30 AM

Thanks for replying. Quick follow up though:

However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns.

Such as? What to you would be a conventional training pattern that gives comparable results?

(I should clarify that I'm asking because I'm interested in different viewpoints.)

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #559 on: November 07, 2011, 10:57:05 AM

I have to agree with Cyrrex, that schedule seems overly complex and involved. Unless you are a body builder type you really don't need to be doing that many different types of isolation lift. Squats alone could replace the first five exercises on your leg day. More sets of fewer exercises if better I find, if nothing else than for the reasont hat you often need a set or two to get your mind set and your form down, so if you only do a set or two you probably aren't through your warm-up stage and at the point where you are pushing yourself for benefit.

do you mean a muscle-up?

Yes, that thing. I want to do it. More than once. It's called mantling in climbing, I couldn't find the 'real' name for it. As for the routine, I'm pretty much tagging along with what they're doing. When I get more comfortable, I'll probably take your advice and branch out into my own. I personally want to do more squats and especially learn how to deadlift; they hate them and won't do anything but hug the smith rack. I've got I think 4 sessions with a "personal trainer" (har) so I'll probably use that to get form down on stuff like that for myself.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 11:00:37 AM by bhodi »
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