Recruiter told not to hire WoW players

[Yoru]

stuff

elaboration

You should have put that in the "WoW/Wii is making gamers stupider" thread.  I don't recall which one that is, but I'm sure you can find it.

I was going to go for the "Attention whores responding to their own drivel because no one else is" thread, but I'm pretty sure he can find that one too.

[Rhonstet]

The people who would get discriminated against are the ones who would be the most likely to make a great impression otherwise.  A recruiter who doesn't suck doesn't have time to consider at personal interests like WoW; he's too busy tracking employment histories.  

The real basketcases who end up addicted to MMOs are likely to get filtered out by recruiters for reasons that aren't actually bullshit.  Someone who has been unemployed for a year is likely to have problems explaining away that hiatus: whether you were doing charity work or playing MMOs really doesn't matter as long as you can spin it well.

Recruiters discriminate against people all the time, for reasons far crappier than this (my personal favorite was the guy who refused to consider anyone who was an Eagles fan, because he said Eagles fans were dicks).  Its easier than doing their actual job of researching people's job histories and employer's management practices to match the two up.  

[schild]

Eagles fans ARE dicks though.

[schild]

Boing Boing
Kotaku
Massively
Tweakers
PCGames.de
Gamestar.de
Games Industry
WoWInsider
G4TV
Silicon Alley Insider
MaximumPC
Jeux Video
Project Lore
Yelp!
Escapist
Game Politics
Reddit
Meneame
Asylum
College OTR

There's probably about a hundred more in the stats, most linked from Raph's Blog. I would hereby like to call this post "Games Journalism in Action." I recommend to anyone interested to take a look at most of those links and see what happens when people don't link back to the original post and just quote it without trying to glamorize and glorify it. You know, just report the news. The distortion and wankery that rises from this grave of bad reporting (not Raph - who was the only person to just quote the thing in it's entirety and didn't try to ice the entire ordeal) is pretty awesome. Please, by all means, get to clicking.

Also, if you're a member of Something Awful or The Chaos Engine, or nearly every other forum, you're probably already having this conversation (the one spawned from the original story, that is).

[Mrbloodworth]

That's fantastic, Tale your like famous or something.

When are you going to tell them you made it all up?  

[Lantyssa]

Given the length of the list and the coverage over a personal anecdote, I think we should call him "Tall Tale" from now on.

[Fraeg]

Everything I learned about basic html I learned from f13. Sad, but true.

Also, the last computer-y guy we hired (GIS) was indignant when I asked him "so, whaddya play?" Indignant! Perhaps a bit of an assumption on my part, true, but I didn't not expect his verbal shitstorm about what losers gamers are. It smacked of diversionary tactics, methinks.

I am a geographer, GIS is my thing. I know of no other GIS people who are gamers.  I mean they must be out there, but none of the people i know are.  However, I do have a co-worker GIS speciallist in our SD office who is all about Fantasy Leagues 

I think the reason for this is that GIS users backgrounds tend to be in things like: urban planning, geology, geography, things like that, not IT in the sense of geeks with computers. 

[Rasputin]

It's a common courtesy to let your employer know of any medical conditions you have that may affect how often you're out. I include pregnancy in this camp. We just hired someone who, surprise! is just starting her second trimester. She wasn't showing when we interviewed (and didn't mention it), but now it's illegal to fire her, even though she'll only work for a few months before she milks our insurance on maternity leave.

It's true. I've now worked at 2 places where women very obviously did not inform the employer they were pregnant. But since you're an evil fuckbag if you bag on a woman for anything involving pregnancy, no one cared to point out the problem with it.

That's because in an interview, using any of the the following as a basis for questions are illegal (at least in New Jersey, and likely elsewhere):

• Medical history
• Family background
• Family heritage
• Family questions in general (

Having been on several hiring committees it's been reinforced to us time and time again that especially as state employees we have to range FAR away from any questions regarding the above. It could cause us to get sued.

In regards to the recently-hired 2nd Trimester woman, she can work clear up until the baby is poking out if she's in good health, and if she has enough leave time it's no business of yours how long she's out. Once she runs out of leave time I'm sure her insurance won't be covered anymore, unless you have some magical medical plan that doesn't require employees and employers to pay in. Maternity leave from FMLA is, in general, unpaid if you don't have vacation or sick days to use for it.

Veering back on topic, which I got from Lum, yeah, and? In an interview I don't bring up anything regarding gaming unless I'm asked about it, which I was in a multimedia content job I was interviewing for. Beyond that? Hell no. When an interviewer asks what you do outside of work, the answer is "I have a home life. It's pretty good, thanks," and keep 'er movin. That said, fuck 'em for thinking that the general "WoW player" is somehow less of a person.

[sam, an eggplant]

Of course you can't ask, but you can reach the same destination legally. For example, I tend to say something about the position involving high-stress production support, and that we need someone who is willing to commit to the position as a career and not a 9 to 5 McJob, willing to be called late nights and work weekends, no working from home whatsoever, and so on. All of which is absolutely true, documented, and required to some degree. If the candidate agrees and then fails to meet my expectations due to a situation entirely under their control, I take care of the matter. I don't fire them. Instead I make their lives so miserable that they quit without severance. Usually within 6 weeks. I call this "the situation resolving itself".

During that "resolution period", I document every transgression they make, no matter how minor. Employees must be evaluated on how adeptly they perform their job, and they could claim that I forced them to quit, or something of the matter, and sue. It's critically important to document everything, timestamped, and get witnesses to each. If they were to fail to quit after 2 months, I guess I'd go ahead and fire them for cause, but that's never been a problem. My personal best "let the situation resolve itself" within 2 days.

[schild]

So, basically, you deal with human nature by being a real dickbag.

[squirrel]

TALL TALE - SIGN MY BREASTS!

Near edit: The first pass of this was TALE TALL - SING MY BREASTS. Not sure which version I like better.

[Numtini]

Yay, make people miserable for having a family or for having the audacity to be a woman who's pregnant! Drive them from their jobs!

I think you're confusing "employer" with "massah."

[sam, an eggplant]

Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

[schild]

Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.

[sam, an eggplant]

If I tell someone "you need to be available to work weekends" on the interview and they agree, only to later enter a situation of their own free will where they can't work weekends, that's not my problem. It's a requirement for the job, like basketball teams hiring tall people or contractors hiring licensed electricians, and fully legal. Besides, it's absolutely true. If they're unable to work late or whatever, they can't do the job. Emergencies happen. Should my other guys be expected to pick up their slack?

I take no pleasure in it, except when I feel they lied to me on the interview (which is roughly 95% of the time for india and 25% for US/europe). Either they can do the job or they can't. If not, g'bye.

[Murgos]

Heh, someone who thinks work > life.  Enjoy your upcoming heart attack(s).

[schild]

If I tell someone "you need to be available to work weekends" on the interview and they agree, only to later enter a situation of their own free will where they can't work weekends, that's not my problem. It's a requirement for the job, like basketball teams hiring tall people or contractors hiring licensed electricians, and fully legal. Besides, it's absolutely true. If they're unable to work late or whatever, they can't do the job. Emergencies happen. Should my other guys be expected to pick up their slack?

I take no pleasure in it, except when I feel they lied to me on the interview (which is roughly 95% of the time for india and 25% for US/europe). Either they can do the job or they can't. If not, g'bye.

Yea, but going out of your way to be a dickbag doesn't make you less of a dickbag, ts'all I'm saying.

[Tale]

Given the length of the list and the coverage over a personal anecdote, I think we should call him "Tall Tale" from now on.

You may remember me from other slashdotted stuff: http://www.corpnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=40594

[Raph]

We made a meme!

BTW, it just jumped to more "mainstream" media. Granted, the games blog, but it's the Guardian nonetheless.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/dec/17/pc-games

Quick tale, you need to put up the YouTube video.

Schild, I AM sorry if the traffic hurt. :(

[schild]

The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing things up :(

[squirrel]

Surely you're not surprised? People have screwed up way less complex endeavors than copy / paste. It's that broken thing. And the Guardian TOTALLY qualifies as mainstream media.

You saw it - I was the first one to ask for boob signage!

[Venkman]

Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.

It's not rationalizing. It truly is the situation resolving itself. I don't know same at all, but seeing similar situations, I doubt sam goes out of his way to push more shit onto the soon-to-quit. More likely he doesn't slacken the shit at all, thus allowing the soon-to-quit to realize they ain't cut for the role. It's not sam's job to adapt a specific functional role to a person who wanted the job more than actually thinking about what the job would actually entail. I've seen that situation time and again. People really don't think hiring managers are serious when they say "we're here early, we work late and sometimes on the weekends". They're all like "yea, you're just trying to scare me". Until they see the truth.

It happens. I just went through similar with a guy on my team. My job is a bit less specific though, and I didn't want to fire the guy. He just wasn't right for the role, so I got him another gig (and a slight promotion) in another part of the company.

[schild]

Yes, obviously, humans are flawed. But any hiring manager who asks a question like that and expects someone to jeopardize getting a position is deluded and shouldn't be in a position of hiring anyone. Humans, by nature, lie. It just happens. They say what people want to hear. Making someones life hell so they quit - that's not letting the solution resolve itself. It's being a passive-aggressive dickbag.

[squirrel]

Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.

People really don't think hiring managers are serious when they say "we're here early, we work late and sometimes on the weekends". They're all like "yea, you're just trying to scare me". Until they see the truth.

It happens. I just went through similar with a guy on my team. My job is a bit less specific though, and I didn't want to fire the guy. He just wasn't right for the role, so I got him another gig (and a slight promotion) in another part of the company.

Ok and that's fine. But are these salaried employees or waged? What do the benefits and expense packages cover? Simply stating that anecdotal comparison without qualifying it is useless. Sam could be the biggest dick on the planet or just a regular employer. We don't know, because there's no real data here, just 300 word posts on f13.

Point: Asking people to occasionally work evenings or weekends is fine, and advising them of that in the interview process is great. However if it's a salary job, you have no right to expect that this is acceptable standard operating practice. The employee owes you the set amount of hours a week and the deliverable output. If weekends are established up front - fine. But acting like a salaried employee should be at your beck and call is asinine.

If these people are on wage not salary it's entirely different. Of course then if the employment contract doesn't outline shift work, you'll be paying overtime - and even if it does you are required to pay overtime at 1.5x for every hour past 8 hours up to 11 and then 2x for every hour past that (varies by state but is pretty consistent, even here in Canada).

The point being - just because you made a vague comment or question in the interview does not give you the right to be a fucking asshole.

EDIT: By the by - nothing you ask or say in the interview process is worth a hill of beans. If it's not in the agreement signed by the employee at the time the job is legally offered it doesn't matter.

[Lantyssa]

[uote author=schild link=topic=15577.msg565785#msg565785 date=1229571381]
The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing thi
[/quote]
So true.

[squirrel]

[uote author=schild link=topic=15577.msg565785#msg565785 date=1229571381]
The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing thi

So true.
[/quote]

LOL. Belly laugh, well played.

[sam, an eggplant]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

[squirrel]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

Ah - when in doubt question other peoples validity. Way to seal the deal asshole.

[schild]

Har.

[Lantyssa]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...

I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?

[schild]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...

I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?

Apparently he gets to torture people.

[squirrel]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...

I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?

How did fritter become a bad word anyway? A good fritter is heavenly.



Oh and to stay on topic. I'd hire a WoW player. But then I'd hire a heroin addicted transvestite monkey who dressed up as Michael Caine in a stormtrooper uniform if he/she/they could do the job. I'd worry about hiring someone from f13 though, all we do is post all day.

[Ratman_tf]

Yeaaaaaahhhhh... I'm gonna need everyone on this thread to work late.

[Zira]

No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

So, your job is a cunt.... mine isnt...   and I do take off at 5pm sharp..

Dont tell me I suck because you are too weak to tell your boss you dont do that shit.

[bhodi]

If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce.  ... a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

Salaried is not synonymous with "exploited" unless you let it become that way. Some managers will drag as much work out of people as they possibly can if you let them - that's part of their job. Part of yours is knowing when you need to work extra hours, and when something can simply wait until tomorrow. Generally, the world as we know it will not end and your company will not collapse if things slip.

Sometimes, things need to slip for a systemic problem to be red flagged and addressed. A constant 60 hours a week equates to bad planning or inadequate help. I've worked my share of crunch time and emergencies, coming in on the weekend if there's a problem or unexpected deadline, but always it's the exception, not the norm. If I ever ended up in a position where 60 hours a week is considered 'normal' in any way shape or form, I would be leaving that job post haste. I don't think I'm alone in this.

I think it is you who is the outlier, not us. I have come into contact with people in your situation, though, and some do seem to follow your views. I used to work at a large government contracting agency, and I was briefly cubed next to a woman who was on a proposal team - that is, a team responsible for putting together an initial proposal to submit to the government as a bid on government contracts. Because the team is considered "overhead", that is, hours not directly billable to the customer, there is great incentive to get as much work out of these people as humanly possible to keep the overhead costs down.

The people on that team were working your kind of hours; coming in weekends, trying to make unreasonable deadlines, missing rush hour early coming in and late going out, the whole deal. She had only been doing it for 6 months but by then had completely lost her social life and started looking physically haggard. She wasn't sleeping well and started getting worse by the day. One day, I just looked at her and asked her why she did it. Her response? "Because it's my job, and they need me." Not soon after, she burned out and was quickly replaced with someone else who was also willing to work those kinds of hours for middling pay. Life in the company went on.

During this period, I was raiding pretty hardcore in WoW - I was even putting about 25 hours a week into the game at one point. Unlike her, I managed to come in on time and keep my job, my health, and my sanity.