Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 20, 2019, 09:40:13 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Shop: Amazon
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Cheyenne Mountain Death Watch 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Cheyenne Mountain Death Watch  (Read 112402 times)
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
on: December 04, 2008, 02:13:02 PM

Enough people have now sent me this that it officially gets its own topic.

http://days-since-cheyenne-mountain-employees-have-been-paid.com/
JWIV
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2392


Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 02:13:37 PM

gack    ACK!
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 02:15:21 PM

gack    ACK!

Is "gack" code for "obvious death is obvious?" Just wondering.
SnakeCharmer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3807


Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 02:15:50 PM

That's not good.  

Even if it's not true...
Mrbloodworth
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15148


Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 02:16:31 PM

That's a shame.

Today's How-To: Scrambling a Thread to the Point of Incoherence in Only One Post with MrBloodworth . - schild
www.mrbloodworthproductions.com  www.amuletsbymerlin.com
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306


Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 02:18:40 PM

I don't get it.  sad

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 02:22:08 PM

I don't get it.  sad

Cheyenne Mountain is a company based out of Phoenix, AZ. They were making The Stargate MMOG, as well as who knows how much other shit. Development went slowly and they kept hemorrhaging cash on various bad projects. It seems like a classic case of mismanagement. But really, even good management wouldn't have made a Stargate MMOG a success.
JWIV
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2392


Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 02:29:35 PM

gack    ACK!

Is "gack" code for "obvious death is obvious?" Just wondering.

Not exactly.  You'd think I'd be inured to start-up companies doing the death spiral dance after seeing it up close for years, but it still manages to make me flinch.

sidereal
Contributor
Posts: 1712


Reply #8 on: December 04, 2008, 02:30:18 PM

even good management wouldn't have made a Stargate MMOG a success.

Lies.  Good management and good developers can make any IP a success.  IP really doesn't matter that much beyond the first media blitz.

And among IPs for MMOs, Stargate's a pretty good fit (hi instances).  If IP mattered.  Which it doesn't.

THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
Reply #9 on: December 04, 2008, 02:31:15 PM

even good management wouldn't have made a Stargate MMOG a success.

Lies.  Good management and good developers can make any IP a success.  IP really doesn't matter that much beyond the first media blitz.

And among IPs for MMOs, Stargate's a pretty good fit (hi instances).  If IP mattered.  Which it doesn't.
That's adorable.
sidereal
Contributor
Posts: 1712


Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 02:34:44 PM

You seriously think City of Heroes would have any different subscriber numbers today if it was City of Marvel?  If Eve was Eve: Babylon Five Online anything would be different?  If Vanguard was Vanguard: Vice City it would have saved it?  If Blizzard made World of NewSetting it would have done worse?

Doesn't matter. 

THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 02:36:51 PM

You seriously think City of Heroes would have any different subscriber numbers today if it was City of Marvel?  If Eve was Eve: Babylon Five Online anything would be different?  If Vanguard was Vanguard: Vice City it would have saved it?  If Blizzard made World of NewSetting it would have done worse?

Doesn't matter. 

I seriously think that some IPs can help and some can hinder, in addition - some are worth the money whereas most aren't.
JWIV
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2392


Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 02:39:15 PM

This conversation can only go to one place.   Don't go for it guys.  Stay strong!   Avoid  Beating a Dead Horse
Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136


Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 02:54:05 PM

IPs just force you into doing stupid shit.
Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942

Muse.


Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 03:04:53 PM

IPs just force you into doing stupid shit.

And they force you to talk to embarrassingly familiar characters, like Legolas and Hans Solo (went there).  They are like a great horrible Disneyland. 

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
sidereal
Contributor
Posts: 1712


Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 03:07:25 PM

Hans Solo

Is that the Swedish Han Solo?

Nerd Foul!



THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
SnakeCharmer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3807


Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 03:13:17 PM

This conversation can only go to one place.   Don't go for it guys.  Stay strong!   Avoid  Beating a Dead Horse

wut.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #17 on: December 04, 2008, 03:16:29 PM

lol. Nerd foul smiley

IP isn't going to save bad decisions. We've seen that in every IP based game, much less those few that were MMO.

IP can get you better initial sales though, both for recognition itself and because the IP holder can sometimes be relied on to put cash into marketing it just as you are. We've seen that too. There are certain shall-not-be-named games that had no business enjoying the success they had, but did so entirely because a lot of people attracted by the IP were otherwise unawares of the problems the veteran set knew were there. And I'm vague on this because, in reality, every single genre has been hit with versions of the same thing, and as such the list is pretty long.

As it pertains specifically to MMO, we've discussed this ad nauseum. The moment the new shiny wears off, which it does even for genre newbs, the game has got to stand up for itself. IP is not going to carry bad ideas nor bad execution.

This conversation can only go to one place.   Don't go for it guys.  Stay strong!   Avoid  Beating a Dead Horse
Ok, so, see, the problem with SWG at the time was...

FIRST!

*runs*
Soln
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4689

the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #18 on: December 04, 2008, 03:27:22 PM

I had little hope for this (well, more than I did for Africa Online) but I did want to see them launch. 
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #19 on: December 04, 2008, 03:28:29 PM

Thank god we still have Darkfall!



On a serious note: I'm sorry to see people lose their jobs/go without pay this time of year. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
SnakeCharmer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3807


Reply #20 on: December 04, 2008, 03:35:24 PM

How long 'till SOE buys it?
Nonentity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2301

2009 Demon's Souls Fantasy League Champion


WWW
Reply #21 on: December 04, 2008, 03:40:09 PM

IPs just force you into doing stupid shit.

And they force you to talk to embarrassingly familiar characters, like Legolas and Hans Solo (went there).  They are like a great horrible Disneyland. 

It's like I don't even know you anymore.

Who are you? What have you done with Signe? Bring back the lollipop avatar.

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

[20:42:41] You are halted on the way to the netherworld by a dark spirit, demanding knowledge.
[20:42:41] The spirit touches you and you feel drained.
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 14499

I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #22 on: December 04, 2008, 03:40:44 PM

How long 'till SOE buys it?

It's got to actually go live and fail first. 

Stargate is a worthless MMO IP.  I could demonstrate this, but I don't feel like drawing a snarky Venn diagram right now.

-Rasix
sidereal
Contributor
Posts: 1712


Reply #23 on: December 04, 2008, 03:59:51 PM


THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 14499

I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #24 on: December 04, 2008, 04:04:54 PM

Not what I was thinking of.

I just don't see any real cross over appeal with gamers, MMO gamers specifically and how the Stargate IP would bring them all together in a way that would offset the restrictive nature of choosing that IP. 

-Rasix
TheCastle
Terracotta Army
Posts: 176


Reply #25 on: December 04, 2008, 04:14:04 PM

You seriously think City of Heroes would have any different subscriber numbers today if it was City of Marvel?  If Eve was Eve: Babylon Five Online anything would be different?  If Vanguard was Vanguard: Vice City it would have saved it?  If Blizzard made World of NewSetting it would have done worse?

Doesn't matter. 

World of star trek....
World of Sponge Bob Square pants....
World of Barbie....
World of Warhammer...
World of Beer...
World of aliens vs predator....
World of Generic military dudes....

Yeah it could have been any of those and still have rocked out that tight game play.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 04:33:06 PM by TheCastle »
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #26 on: December 04, 2008, 04:18:33 PM

Blizzard is an inappropriate example because "Blizzard" itself carries about as much street cred with gamers as Warcraft does.

A better example would be games from less well-known companies that secured major IP like Star Trek, Dune, etc where it's only the strength of the IP vs the strength of the same exact game without that IP that can be assessed. That's why SWG is actually the perfect example. That game without that IP would rightly have been called UO 2.0, and might not have gotten anywhere near the initial accountbase that they did.

The more recent and maybe even more appropriate example would be AoC and WAR. Imagine both without those IPs making anywhere near that many sales. I don't think the genre was hungry enough for generic pretty DX10-wannabe 3D world nor generic WoW-like-game with PvE 0.25 and PvP 1.5.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 04:20:27 PM by Darniaq »
TheCastle
Terracotta Army
Posts: 176


Reply #27 on: December 04, 2008, 04:30:32 PM

The more recent and maybe even more appropriate example would be AoC and WAR. Imagine both without those IPs making anywhere near that many sales.

Word has it Bionic commando sold surprisingly well and that is a pretty recent example of an IP making a difference.

Although I can think of some examples where an IP drags a game down more than anything. You can make an amazing game and have a bad IP and have it sell horribly.
Matt
Developers
Posts: 63

Iron Realms


WWW
Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 04:36:36 PM

If you don't believe IPs can have a major effect on game populations, I don't think you're paying attention.

Do you think that Barbie Girls would have a 3500 Alexa rank (got no idea what it's playerbase is like) if it was not Barbie?

Do you think that Pirates of the Caribbean Online would have ANY players if it weren't for the PotC license?

Would AdventureQuest Worlds have any players were it not for using the AQ IP? (I wouldn't even be aware of its existence without the AQ IP, I know.)

How about Final Fantasy Online?

Would LotR have nearly as many players if it was not using the Tolkien license?

Keep an eye on Lego Universe. Nobody would give two shits about this game were it not for the Lego brand.

IP is clearly just one factor in an MMOs success or failure, but to dismiss it as not mattering is to deeply misunderstand the role of IP.

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
Yoru
Moderator
Posts: 4615

the y master, king of bourbon


WWW
Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 04:58:55 PM

Regarding the IP thing, there was an article about this in the Escapist about a year-and-a-half ago.

However, it compared revenue takes for a spectrum of successful/unsuccessful releases under four scenarios: new game/internal IP, franchise (sequel) game/internal IP, new game/external (licensed) IP, new game/external IP. Note that "internal" generally means "original", particularly when applied to new games.

The sequel/internal had the very highest peak revenues, but the number of these megahits is vanishingly small; it also had the largest standard deviation - meaning the largest uncertainty in revenues. However, the average revenue over all the titles sampled was generally excellent. New/internal was the highest risk - even the highest take of all the new games sampled did not exceed the take in sequel/external games, had a much lower average take, and a high standard deviation. New/external games had the lowest average revenue, but also the lowest standard deviation, while sequel/external games had an average take comparable to sequel/internal games (albeit with a lower peak), and a much lower level of risk evident in its standard deviation.

What does this mean? It means that licensing an IP generally makes your game a safer bet, regardless of genre. It can also tamp down on your potential earnings somewhat, but in the average case, you'll still do OK. The same cannot be said of original IPs; the disparity between the losers and megahits there is much, much greater. That kind of uncertainty kills investment.
Soln
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4689

the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #30 on: December 04, 2008, 05:01:31 PM

Not what I was thinking of.

I just don't see any real cross over appeal with gamers, MMO gamers specifically and how the Stargate IP would bring them all together in a way that would offset the restrictive nature of choosing that IP. 


squad based instance combat with PvP (ideally)
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 14499

I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 05:05:38 PM

If you don't believe IPs can have a major effect on game populations, I don't think you're paying attention.

Do you think that Barbie Girls would have a 3500 Alexa rank (got no idea what it's playerbase is like) if it was not Barbie?

Do you think that Pirates of the Caribbean Online would have ANY players if it weren't for the PotC license?

Would AdventureQuest Worlds have any players were it not for using the AQ IP? (I wouldn't even be aware of its existence without the AQ IP, I know.)

How about Final Fantasy Online?

Would LotR have nearly as many players if it was not using the Tolkien license?

Keep an eye on Lego Universe. Nobody would give two shits about this game were it not for the Lego brand.

IP is clearly just one factor in an MMOs success or failure, but to dismiss it as not mattering is to deeply misunderstand the role of IP.

Let me break down the effecitve uses of IP contained in the above:

Shoveling shit to a bunch of rubes:

-Barbie Girls
-PoTC Online

Seriously, you stick a popular IP and slap it onto to a complete crap title, it's going to do things. I doubt these had AAA MMO OMG budget or aspirations. Budget kid MMOs will work great for this.  ToonTown was pretty decent, however, and will make me look like a jerk if anyone brings it up.

Carving a small piece out of the giant nerd pie:
-LOTRO

You can add SWG to this.  Just because someone is a big fan of nerd IP doesn't mean they game or are going to game.  But there are enough nerds that game to make this viable (hello me).  Helps if you don't make giant stupid design decisions to piss off your user base at some point. 

Selling MMO games to gamers

-Final Fantasy Online.  Seriously, how was this not going to do well, despite all of it's efforts to make it the most soul crushing grind on the planet? 

What's even better is trying to sell a MMO IP to a bunch of gamers that have already been playing games online competitively for years in that very IP.  There is money to be made here, I wonder who will actually pull it off.  /GREEEEEEEN

Lego MMO will end up either being shoveling shit to rubes or really MMO game to gamers.  Lego is essentially an established game IP at this point. 

Of course, IP is a success factor, but banking on it here is just fucking silly. You're just hamstringing yourself with lore and continuity issues with a huge helping of design limitation for what?  Marketting recognition on a brand most people are still going to associate with Kurt Russel and very small subset of an already small fanbase.  HUH?

Edit: heh, to touch upon what Yoru posted while I was still typing up this nonsense: at least you'll get some VC money.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 05:08:18 PM by Rasix »

-Rasix
schild
Administrator
Posts: 58715


WWW
Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 05:10:56 PM

I didn't really want to get into an IP pissing match. But comeon. IP can matter, but it doesn't always. It's not particularly fascinating. The bigger issue here was handing a shitty IP (as in an IP with minimal crossover of minimal quality in terms of translation to a game people would care about) to an incredibly amateur dev team and expecting something impressive. And if anyone here had been watching Cheyenne over the past few years, you would've seen them spreading themselves very thinly.

It was a disaster waiting to happen, no doubt. Doubly so by having such an incompetent group of folks masterminding the whole thing. I'm still not sure how they expected to build a good team to execute it by setting up in Phoenix. Though, I suppose, that was mistake #3 - the first two being the Stargate IP and the owners of the IP even thinking it was a good idea to begin with.
Yoru
Moderator
Posts: 4615

the y master, king of bourbon


WWW
Reply #33 on: December 04, 2008, 05:11:07 PM

Edit: heh, to touch upon what Yoru posted while I was still typing up this nonsense: at least you'll get some VC money.

Wait, MMO development is more than just fleecing investors?!  awesome, for real
Soln
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4689

the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #34 on: December 04, 2008, 05:12:47 PM

They were in the SW because that's where their investors (Utah in particular I believe) are all from.  No I'm not making that up.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Cheyenne Mountain Death Watch  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC