Cheyenne Mountain Death Watch

[schild]

Ah its not always like that.
I like to crunch sometimes it can be fun. I think most people understand the nature of the business and see through all of the bullshit. Shit like this happens and it just part of the job. You go to a new place with new people under new management its like going out with a new girl. Its refreshing, you might miss your old relationship but in general you are more glad you have a place to work than anything. Anger was the last thing on my mind when I knew I was free. Its more like an earth quake or something or a natural disaster. Its just something you have to deal with.

Yes, but just judging by your post you are 1. an outlier and 2. crazy. Forgive me for not taking your example as average.

[TheCastle]

Ah its not always like that.
I like to crunch sometimes it can be fun. I think most people understand the nature of the business and see through all of the bullshit. Shit like this happens and it just part of the job. You go to a new place with new people under new management its like going out with a new girl. Its refreshing, you might miss your old relationship but in general you are more glad you have a place to work than anything. Anger was the last thing on my mind when I knew I was free. Its more like an earth quake or something or a natural disaster. Its just something you have to deal with.

Yes, but just judging by your post you are 1. an outlier and 2. crazy. Forgive me for not taking your example as average.

Really you think I am lieing?

Actually maybe I have been lucky I suppose. I have heard of some pretty amazing things happening like suicides from crunching too hard. IMHO that just sounds retarded. I have been through some pretty hard times though but I usually walk out of them relatively fine. I'm telling you the only people who are effected as negatively as you say are the ones that think the project is somehow their baby. That is more of a sign of being inexperienced than anything.

However 2 could be perfectly accurate because not one motherfucker has ever accused me of being sane. 

[Lantyssa]

Could be that the publishers are just rationally risk-averse and don't view a fairly insignificant profit as being worth the risk of engendering a lawsuit over <whatever>. I have no idea. Iron Realms runs games that are much smaller than anything EA has, and they run profitably even today, when the text MUD market is not exactly what one might term sexy.

Someone needs to start an Erotic Realms MUD then!  An epic struggle between sexy demons and beautiful angels with a trashy romance novel wrapping.

Viola!  The text market gets sexy.

[IainC]

Could be that the publishers are just rationally risk-averse and don't view a fairly insignificant profit as being worth the risk of engendering a lawsuit over <whatever>. I have no idea. Iron Realms runs games that are much smaller than anything EA has, and they run profitably even today, when the text MUD market is not exactly what one might term sexy.

Someone needs to start an Erotic Realms MUD then!  An epic struggle between sexy demons and beautiful angels with a trashy romance novel wrapping.

Viola!  The text market gets sexy.

Wouldn't that basically be like Forumwarz but on slashfic sites?

[Yoru]

Could be that the publishers are just rationally risk-averse and don't view a fairly insignificant profit as being worth the risk of engendering a lawsuit over <whatever>. I have no idea. Iron Realms runs games that are much smaller than anything EA has, and they run profitably even today, when the text MUD market is not exactly what one might term sexy.

Someone needs to start an Erotic Realms MUD then!  An epic struggle between sexy demons and beautiful angels with a trashy romance novel wrapping.

Viola!  The text market gets sexy.

You just described half the MUSHes and MUCKs out there.

[Jayce]

I suppose it matters how much pride you take in your work.

This is America we're talking about.

I don't know that this is true.  Most developers are very intrinsically motivated (take pride in their work), even if it's some ridiculously banal accounting software.  Game developers have to be doubly so, though I haven't asked any.

Besides, wouldn't you feel like a chump if you walked off a project that became the next big thing because there were some choppy waters in the last months?

[Soln]

FWIW, my wife and I both like SG and its universe.  We would've subscribed.  

That said, I am skeptical but still hoping.  So all props to Jerrith and his colleagues.  



CME should just release SG in GW-like setup in a year long beta.  Create a really stable, free PvP arena for people to signup and wail on each other.  Get the combat, movement and basics really crisp and working well.  Worry about quests and MMO gooey stuff later while players whisper about how fast and fun the combat is.  Do the MMO stuff as the Beta is worked on.  Even release it just as a great PvP areana.  Beat SWG, Planetside, GW, TR  in the squad based PvP stuff.  Perfect PvP and Combat (do ranks and rewards later).  And watch the positive whisper campaign spread.

Right now, my impression is that CME is trying to release a scifi WoW, which is not wise.

[Rendakor]

FWIW, my wife and I both like SG and its universe.  We would've subscribed.   

That said, I am skeptical but still hoping.  So all props to Jerrith and his colleagues. 



CME should just release SG in GW-like setup in a year long beta.  Create a really stable, free PvP arena for people to signup and wail on each other.  Get the combat, movement and basics really crisp and working well.  Worry about quests and MMO gooey stuff later while players whisper about how fast and fun the combat is.  Do the MMO stuff as the Beta is worked on.  Even release it just as a great PvP areana.  Beat SWG, Planetside, GW, TR  in the squad based PvP stuff.  Perfect PvP and Combat (do ranks and rewards later).  And watch the positive whisper campaign spread.

Right now, my impression is that CME is trying to release a scifi WoW, which is not wise.

Didn't someone already try something like this? We all know how great it turned out.

[Cylus]

...

Best wishes, AR (and Steve too if he reads this)!

[TheCastle]

Besides, wouldn't you feel like a chump if you walked off a project that became the next big thing because there were some choppy waters in the last months?

Absolutely depends on the situation. Not getting paychecks would not be entirely ignorable. While on the other hand working on a project you will know what its current state is first hand. It would take a pretty amazing spin if I felt the game was not in very good shape to not be ready to leave. Cant speak for the guys with families and such though. very different situation for them.

I don't know that this is true.  Most developers are very intrinsically motivated (take pride in their work), even if it's some ridiculously banal accounting software.  Game developers have to be doubly so, though I haven't asked any.

Taking pride in your Resume is a more healthy plan of action. If something I am working on gets canned now it barely phases me. I mean IMHO it would be nothing compared to anxiety of not getting a paycheck. But maybe that's just me and maybe a handful of people around me.

I really honestly feel bad talking about this so frankly knowing people from over there might be reading this though.. It didn't even occur to me until I saw one of the other responses..

[Fordel]

Someone needs to start an Erotic Realms MUD then!  An epic struggle between sexy demons and beautiful angels with a trashy romance novel wrapping.

Viola!  The text market gets sexy.

 

[UnSub]

As IainC indicated the PR statement:

"At Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment, we have always been upfront with the media and our fans that we are a start up. Like many start ups, we face the same cash-flow issues that all pre-revenue companies face. We have maintained a core of dedicated investors, but the new economic realities are forcing us to seek out additional sources of funding and that's what we're doing.

is remarkably similar to the one from a few months ago:

"Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment is a start up, and like many start ups, we face the typical cash flow issues that all pre-revenue companies face. CME continues to fund its operations in the same way it has done for three years and the viability of the Stargate Worlds project is not in question. We fully expect to complete and ship Stargate Worlds in 2009."

Start-up companies that face this kind of cash flow problem go out of business. It is called bankruptcy. It is 'typical' in that a lot of start-ups fail to, well, start-up.

If CME folds, it is a hell of a cap to a hell of a year for the MMO industry.

[Morat20]

I would think that, given the economy, right now would be a bad time to be a company that relies on people giving you money for a product you'll release down the line.

Software development being what it is, that's how it works, but I think the only MMO's in development that aren't going to be seriously crimped for cash now are the the ones being developed "in-house" -- getting subsidized by already existant properties or games.

Bluntly put: There aren't enough people anymore with enough spare cash to play risky "Let's be the next WoW" games . Recessions are bad times to be a startup. If CME's money woes are that bad, the best they can hope for is that they're far enough along for someone to snap up for cheap and finish in-house.

Like, you know, SOE -- although that would depend on how far along SG:W's actually is.

[raydeen]

Well, for what it's worth, the game is still being advertised during SG:A. They apparently have a contest going to have one lucky winner's likeness inserted into the game. Of course that could have been a promo tacked in weeks or months ago and it was either too much bother to remove it or someone just plain forgot. I think I would enjoy a SG MMO. I hope it sees some small light of day.

[UnSub]

Depending on which rumours you listen to, SGW is between 2 - 8 months before being ready for release. This isn't good for CME, who obviously need cash injections right now.

[sam, an eggplant]

Payroll is the last to go. Once you stop paying people it's all over. Morale and productivity is destroyed and employees immediately start shopping around. Even if CM got an angel investor today they'd have significant difficulty recovering from that. You simply cannot stop paying people unless they have ownership or preexisting profit sharing agreements in place. Stick a fork in it.

[UnSub]

According to another internet rumour, CME has burned through US $40 million and has debts of US $12 million. Again, rumour, but it would make it very hard to go back to all those angel investors and get enough money to keep going. They'd really need someone big to buy them out... and that won't happen. It is much more likely large backers will wait until the studio dies, then buy things cheap in a fire(sky) sale.

[SnakeCharmer]

Over the last year or so, it seems to me that the whole thing has been a 'Let's get money from investors to give us a job over the next couple of years' charade.

It's completely amateur hour over there.

Whether or not that rumor is true, they have burned through cash over there.  Extravagent decorations in their offices, the whole interview in HumVees thing, etc.

Edit: also, lulz. 

[Triforcer]

Edit: also, lulz. 

When I first clicked on that, I thought it was a mean-spirited joke by the people at TTH.  But its actually serious and they are matching donations for the first 25 premium memberships purchased- good for them. 

[SnakeCharmer]

By all means...Feed the problem that is the gaming industry (i.e. help reward the people that make crap and do it over budget).

[Triforcer]

By all means...Feed the problem that is the gaming industry (i.e. help reward the people that make crap and do it over budget).

Oh, lighten up.  The coders and artists, etc. on the bottom aren't the problem, they are just trying to provide for their families like anyone else.  The people who made actual management decisions (and who get paid like it) probably aren't the ones this charity is aimed at. 

[SnakeCharmer]

There's lots of unemployed programmers, coders, and artists out there.  Why no pity party for them?

I'm sure management has their fair share of the blame, but the people doing the actual (crap) work have no one to blame but themselves for their respective failures that pushed the game overbudget and late to release.  Everyone likes to blame management, and I'm sure there's enough to go around.  But doing your job and doing it right should be a given.  You (speaking generally, not you in particular) shouldn't have to be told to 'not do shit work'.

Edit to add:  It just amazes me, that in such a 'public' endeavor, how mediocrity is rewarded.

[Triforcer]

There's lots of unemployed programmers, coders, and artists out there.  Why no pity party for them?

I'm sure management has their fair share of the blame, but the people doing the actual (crap) work have no one to blame but themselves for their respective failures that pushed the game overbudget and late to release.  Everyone likes to blame management, and I'm sure there's enough to go around.  But doing your job and doing it right should be a given.  You (speaking generally, not you in particular) shouldn't have to be told to 'not do shit work'.

Edit to add:  It just amazes me, that in such a 'public' endeavor, how mediocrity is rewarded.

As to Point #1:  Why aren't they donating to children in Africa or raising breast cancer awareness in Norway?  Its an MMO site.  So when they do charity, it involves people who work on MMOs.

As to Point #2:  I'll respectfully step aside and let someone who has actually worked in the industry smack you back to next Tuesday.  I'm sure Lum can work up a witty paragraph that explains how people working 90 hour weeks on a project that requires 200 hour weeks to finish by the arbitrary deadline unrealistic management dumbasses have set aren't exactly the devil, in the most sarcastic and devastating possible manner. 

[SnakeCharmer]

As to Point #1:  Why aren't they donating to children in Africa or raising breast cancer awareness in Norway?  Its an MMO site.  So when they do charity, it involves people who work on MMOs.

As to Point #2:  I'll respectfully step aside and let someone who has actually worked in the industry smack you back to next Tuesday.  I'm sure Lum can work up a witty paragraph that explains how people working 90 hour weeks on a project that requires 200 hour weeks to finish by the arbitrary deadline unrealistic management dumbasses have set aren't exactly the devil, in the most sarcastic and devastating possible manner. 

Nobody cried (made a donation drive) for all those poor people from NCsoft, Midway, and a few others that have lost their jobs.  Sure, people hooted and hollered about the tragedy of all these people losing their jobs, and yeah, I suppose I can sympathize, but hey...If they (collectively) did their job, they might not be in such dire straits, yeah?

Don't want the demands?  Don't be work in the games industry.  Everybody knows what the workload is like before they apply. 

I can only guess that you're a lower level worker bee that wants to blame everyone else for your failures.  So to that I say again:  Do your job.  Do it right.  Things generally have a way of working out themselves.

The games industry, once you sign on with a company, and get involved with the development is a 3 to 5 year meal ticket for anyone hired on to that project.  If you truly do fuck up enough to be fired, they're (the company, management, whatever) get backed into the corner because they'll have to go through the interview process and then train the person up to their tools (especially if it's custom in house created tools).  So, people know this.  They undoubtedly take advantage of it because they KNOW if they get fired, it's going to cause a delay to the whole project.  Management knows this.  It's a cyclical fucked up situation that serves no one and wastes millions of dollars.

Again, it's an industry that rewards mediocrity (see Raph, Vogel, McQuaid, Garriot, and a whole slew of others that get (or got) by on name alone).  (edit to add) Hell, the guy running the show for the development of SGW (Ledaye) was the lead honcho for the defunct Earth and Beyond.  That wasn't mediocrity, that was flat out failure.

Edit: spelng iz hurd.

[Triforcer]

As to Point #1:  Why aren't they donating to children in Africa or raising breast cancer awareness in Norway?  Its an MMO site.  So when they do charity, it involves people who work on MMOs.

As to Point #2:  I'll respectfully step aside and let someone who has actually worked in the industry smack you back to next Tuesday.  I'm sure Lum can work up a witty paragraph that explains how people working 90 hour weeks on a project that requires 200 hour weeks to finish by the arbitrary deadline unrealistic management dumbasses have set aren't exactly the devil, in the most sarcastic and devastating possible manner. 

Nobody cried (made a donation drive) for all those poor people from NCsoft, Midway, and a few others that have lost their jobs.  Sure, people hooted and hollered about the tragedy of all these people losing their jobs, and yeah, I suppose I can sympathize, but hey...If they (collectively) did their job, they might not be in such dire straits, yeah?

Don't want the demands?  Don't be work in the games industry.  Everybody knows what the workload is like before they apply. 

I can only guess that you're a lower level worker bee that wants to blame everyone else for your failures.  So to that I say again:  Do your job.  Do it right.  Things generally have a way of working out themselves.

First, your guess about me would be wrong.  This isn't the thread to compare salary epeens, though, so I'll let it drop there.  Second, its one thing if you give the coders an assignment and a month later all they've done is create Picard and oRLY gifs.  But the low-level people work their asses off and are ultimately torpedoed by bad macro design decisions, poor management or unrealistic sales pitches given to investors, etc. 

I'm sure there are isolated cases where rank low-level sloth has materially impacted a project, but I sincerely doubt its a factor 99% of the time. 

[schild]

I'm sure there are isolated cases where rank low-level sloth has materially impacted a project, but I sincerely doubt its a factor 99% of the time.

Isolated? No.

99% of the time? No.

[Samprimary]

After reviewing this attempt at a Stargate MMO I am going to say that there is no way in hell it could have ever been profitable and I would have concluded this fact before they had had a money crisis.

[Iniquity]

Things generally have a way of working out themselves.

What the fuck?  No they don't!  This is the same pedantic bullshit masquerading as insight that everyone who grew up in the suburbs and achieved minimal competence at whatever they do thinks, but it really, really isn't true.

[Yoru]

Leave it to SnakeCharmer to make this thread borderline politics material.

[Venkman]

If you truly do fuck up enough to be fired, they're (the company, management, whatever) get backed into the corner because they'll have to go through the interview process and then train the person up to their tools (especially if it's custom in house created tools).  So, people know this.  They undoubtedly take advantage of it because they KNOW if they get fired, it's going to cause a delay to the whole project.  Management knows this. 

SnakeCharmer angry. SnakeCharmer smash!

 

I have no idea what CME's actual problems are. I merely suspect they got in over their head with a license they thought was more popular than their more recent market data is probably showing them. This isn't the first project lead by IP geeks who convinced the money people the game was worth a larger budget than it had any right to get, which caused the technical and experiential expectations to rise to an unachievable (for them) level.

But the "industry" does not work like this. Only some companies do. Other companies are filled with people who realize they can be replaced, who realize that if their co-workers leave they'll be left holding the bag, who have a huge disconnect between an outward-facing management team (or an upward-facing one) that makes promises that either are impossible to achieve in even the most vague sense or are never communicated to those doing the actual work, have inexperienced co-workers/consultants/managers, and so on and so on.

And there's a rare few that are so outwardly successful the internal machinations are unknown except to insiders who are or were so successful during their stint they actually abide by the corporate NDAs.

[Nija]

By all means...Feed the problem that is the gaming industry (i.e. help reward the people that make crap and do it over budget).

Hey that's what the US government is doing right now, albeit in a totally different industry. The US government can't be wrong, can it?

[Soln]

SG-1 cancelled  August 21, 2006
SG Atlantic cancelled August 21st, 2008
Stargate: Universe to start 2009, maybe

Don't remember when CME started, but yeah risky when the main TV driver's were being cancelled. Losing Atlantis may have been a surprise.

[Morat20]

SG-1 cancelled  August 21, 2006
SG Atlantic cancelled August 21st, 2008
Stargate: Universe to start 2009, maybe

Don't remember when CME started, but yeah risky when the main TV driver's were being cancelled. Losing Atlantis may have been a surprise.

I believe it's a tradition among the Stargate spin-offs to end each season wondering if you were going to have a freakin' job next year. I think SG-1 was almost cancelled all but like 2 or 3 years out of it's 10 year run.

[Draegan]

I watched an episode of that TV series and it was crap.  The movie was entertaining.

I saw a few episodes of Atlantis.  Interesting a bit.

[HaemishM]

But doing your job and doing it right should be a given.  You (speaking generally, not you in particular) shouldn't have to be told to 'not do shit work'.

How about management's responsibility to actually pay people for the work they do?

In other words, don't be a douche about people being given a hand when their employer is shitting all over them.